On Dave Holliday and the Rockies' Christianity
The Post-Gazette reports that Colorado scout Dave Holliday - uncle of Matt - is interested in being the Pirates' scouting director.
If he were selected, I'd have some serious reservations. First of all, Holliday has been with the Rockies a long time (at least since 1998), and the Rockies have been a poor organization most of that time. Their drafting record since then has been spotty, too - in 1998, they had three first round draft picks, and they took Matt Roney, Choo Freeman and Jeff Winchester. In 2000, they took Matt Harrington with the seventh overall pick. More recent top picks like Jayson Nix (2001) and Chris Nelson (2004) have been slow to develop, and two years later the Rockies took Greg Reynolds, who was kind of like the Bryan Bullington of the '06 draft, with the second overall pick. Reynolds, a low-upside pick to begin with, had shoulder surgery in August. In 2000, the Rockies threw nearly $3 million at second-rounder Jason Young, who completely flamed out. They also gave a $2.2 million bonus to Chin-Hui Tsao, who hasn't done anything, in 1999.
Obviously, every team has scouting successes and failures, and the Rockies deserve credit for Jeff Francis, Troy Tulowitzki, Brad Hawpe, Garrett Atkins, and so on. But, given the high draft picks they've had, their record is average at best, and players like Reynolds are exactly the sorts of picks the Pirates should avoid at all costs. If I were interviewing Holliday, I'd want to know what he'd do differently from the Rockies. Remember, the Rockies finished below .500 in six consecutive years before this one. They are not a great organization, no matter what happens this year.
Saying this probably isn't going to make me very popular, but whatever: if I were interviewing Holliday, I'd also want to know exactly what he thinks about this:
The Rockies' approach is unusual in that religious doctrine is a guide for running a franchise. The club's executives emphasize they are not intolerant of other views.
"We try to do the best job we can to get people with the right sense of moral values, but we certainly don't poll our players or our organization to find out who is Christian and who isn't," says O'Dowd, who says he has had prayer sessions on the telephone with club President Keli McGregor and manager Clint Hurdle. "I know some of the guys who are Christians, but I can't tell you who is and who isn't."
Is it possible that some Rockies are playing the role of good Christians just to stay in the team's good graces? Yes, former Rockies say.
"They have a great group of guys over there, but I've never been in a clubhouse where Christianity is the main purpose," says San Francisco Giants first baseman-outfielder Mark Sweeney, a veteran of seven organizations who spent 2003 and 2004 with the Rockies. "You wonder if some people are going along with it just to keep their jobs.
"Look, I pray every day," Sweeney says. "I have faith. It's always been part of my life. But I don't want something forced on me. Do they really have to check to see whether I have a Playboy in my locker?"
This, to me, sounds like a very dumb and unfair way to run a baseball team. The Rockies repeatedly claim that they're open to other views - if they didn't, I assume they could be sued - but from other aspects of the article and from Sweeney's comments, it doesn't sound like that's the case, and at the very least, it sounds like an uncomfortable environment for a non-Christian. Whatever you think of Christianity, the Pirates can't afford to pass on players who can help them, regardless of religion.
Now take a look at this article:
n other words, the Rockies - uniquely, even in a country as religion-obsessed as America - play faith-based baseball. And, in their view, God just rewarded them - big time.
"You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make," general manager Dan O'Dowd said in the only interview he has given on the subject, long before the Rockies' remarkable ascension over the past few weeks. "You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this."
That's discrimination on the basis of religion. In my view, it's wrong. I don't want to say any more about it here because this isn't a political blog, but I don't want the Pirates to become a team that discriminates on the basis of religion, which is what Dan O'Dowd has just admitted to doing with the Rockies.
Furthermore, and maybe more relevant to the subject of this blog, this is an extremely dumb policy for baseball reasons alone. It's just as dumb as ignoring the Latin American free agent market the way the Pirates have, for example.
Speaking of which:
In fairness, Willy Taveras is also Dominican, and several of the Rockies' relievers are non-white. But this is still a strikingly white team. All their stars are white.
It's worth pointing out, again, that the Rockies had six consecutive losing seasons before this one (including two after their franchise-conversion following the Denny-Neagle-with-a-hooker episode three years ago), and it's remarkable to me that instead of seeing that and coming to the conclusion that their policy hasn't led to the best baseball, or the conclusion that they've finally found some good young players with which to surround Todd Helton, they now think God is finally rewarding them now that they've played really well for a month. Their approach raises obvious questions about the mistakes they've made - did they pick Reynolds instead of Evan Longoria or Andrew Miller or Clayton Kershaw or Tim Lincecum or Travis Snider because those players didn't have the right religious beliefs?
In my view, this is no way to run a team, both for baseball-related and ethical reasons, and if I were interviewing Dave Holliday, I would want to know exactly what his role in this policy has been. The scouting director is obviously extremely important in determining which players join the organization and which don't. The Pirates simply can't afford to skip out on players who don't happen to have their preferred religious beliefs. And, furthermore, they shouldn't.
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Wow
Wow indeed
At best....
by lgavind @ Bucs Dugout on Oct 18, 2007 4:04 PM EDT reply actions
What do
They're two guys who can make a stadium full of people stand up and shout "Jesus Christ!"
bucdaddy
practicing beer drinker (until I get it RIGHT)
Holliday
On the Rockies' draft record, it's hard to know how much of that can be put on Holliday. He's not the scouting director, he's a special assignment scout. He may have had nothing to do with guys like Reynolds and Young. He almost certainly had nothing to do with Tsao, who was signed out of Taiwan.
Nelson was very highly regarded by just about everybody. Even if he was Holliday's doing, I wouldn't expect every single pick to work out. Based on the views most scouts had, that was a good pick. Nelson was a SS who was expected to have a very good bat, which is the sort of pick I'd like to see the Pirates making. Harrington was also considered a top talent, probably the top one in that entire draft. He got victimized by bad advice from two different agents (one being Boras) and ran into arm problems.
I'd be more interested to know exactly what picks and signings Holliday was directly involved in. Meyer listed Tulo, Atkins and Hawpe. That's a good track record, and it shows Holliday likes college hitters with power, a class of player that I'd very much like to see the Pirates stop ignoring.
The Rockies' farm system has improved a lot over the past few years. They've had several changes in emphasis under O'Dowd, as he's scrambled around looking for philosophies that'll work in Coors. He used to be obsessed with drafting pitchers, and that didn't work out at all. They've done better since they've had a more balanced approach. Since their experiments with different approaches were O'Dowd's doing, I'm not sure how much of it can be blamed on Holliday. And the fact is, they now have a system that BA considers one of baseball's best.
Yeah
I couldn't tell whether Meyer's comments about Tulowitzki, Hawpe and Atkins meant that Holliday was actually instrumental in dealing with those guys, or whether Meyer just made a list of the Rockies' best players and assumed Holliday had something to do with them. If he was one of the main scouts, that's impressive. But I can't find any corroborating evidence that he was. That's not necessarily surprising, but I want to know more here, and I don't trust Meyer.
Point taken about Tsao. But one thing I was getting at but didn't say explicitly is that I'm trying to rebut the presumption that the Rockies are a good organization. They are at best a decent one, and are actively below average if all the years going back to 1998 are taken into account. I don't think Holliday deserves any extra credit for the organization he comes from. They're not that good and they bumbled around for years before this one, and I feel like giving somebody extra credit for being from that organization would be a little like giving a player a huge contract right after an obvious peak year.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Oct 18, 2007 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It's possible that...
Probably a non-issue.
Well, some Christians believe the Catholic Church
Is whiteness really a focus of theirs?
Race/Religion
As Steve suggested I was thinking about the compatibility (or lack thereof) from the various flavors of Christianity. That's always a subject close to my thoughts, since I was raised under the influence of one of the branches (Eastern Orthodox) that had actual honest-to-God Crusades staged against it in the bad old days. How compatible would the Rockies be with a Jehovah's Witness like Torres, just to pull one name out of a hat?
There's also a small-but-growing segment of the Latino prospect population who follow Afro-Caribbean religions like Santeria. There's kind of an interesting article on the subject here, reprinted from the LA Times. Ozzie Guillen, Francisco Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera... lots of big names there.
white christians
by sparky on Oct 19, 2007 5:25 PM EDT reply actions
white christians
I happen not be be a Christian. I'm not a religionist at all and to have religion intrude into the last bastion of freedom FROM religion in this country....that's way too much for me. I hope this stuff isn't true and that they aren't bringing this mix of theology and baseball to this town. Frankly....I'll stop caring completely if this happens.
by parkerbatteryday on Oct 20, 2007 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
The Devil's been busy today...
just read this article online
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/336608_rockies24.html
I don't think this is the direction the Pirates are going to follow. Decisions like the Rockies BC have made come from the top, not from a scout like Dave Holliday. He recently said he would love to interview with the Pirates and come back to PA. I'll welcome anyone who wants to come to Pittsburgh and make a difference, regardless of race, color and religion.
by puget sound pirate on Oct 24, 2007 8:32 PM EDT reply actions

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