don't let the door hit you on the way out, Tracy....

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 1:49 PM EDT Comment 24 comments

The Post Gazette reports that a press conference will be held at 2:30 EDT to officially fire Jim Tracy, and presumably other members of his coaching staff and other front-office personnel (hopefully including Ed Creech):

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07278/823179-100.stm

most Pirates fans would agree this was a long time coming (almost 2 years, by my count). I hope they replace Tracy with someone competent (Tony Pena would be my preference). for now, let us celebrate this act of competence from our PBC!

Poll

Who's the next Pirates manager?

Jeff Cox

0 votes

Phil Garner

7 votes

Joe Girardi

11 votes

Tony LaRussa

2 votes

Tony Pena

8 votes

(someone else)

39 votes

67 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 24 comments

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Comments

good sign

I was worried that the Pirates would try to give Tracy a chance with the new GM. The Pirates need a different personality and it is good to see that the new leadership sees that.

by seamus on Oct 5, 2007 1:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

If you want somebody competent

why would you want Tony Pena?

by matskralc on Oct 5, 2007 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I seem to recall a Manager of the Year award...

... for leading a team only marginally less talented than the current Pirates, the 2003 Kansas City Royals, to contend for the division title up to the final week of the season, a year after losing 100 games. that couldn't have all been luck, could it?

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also remember

Pena following it up by losing 104 games the next year and starting the season after that 8-25 before getting canned.

The '03 Royals were successful using the Pirates' plan under Littlefield: throw a bunch of crap out there and hope they all have career years in the same season. That team got career years out of Darrell May, Runelvys Hernandez, Mike MacDougal, Angel Berroa, Aaron Gueil, and Jeremy Affeldt. They got a good year out of Jose Lima and also had real major league players in Carlos Beltran, Mike Sweeney, Joe Randa, and Raul Ibanez.

If you choose to believe that a whole bunch of 1% chances actually coming true were because of Tony Pena's managerial ability (the same ability he couldn't duplicate in future seasons), I've got some swampland in Jersey to sell you.

by matskralc on Oct 5, 2007 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

'08 Pirates vs. '04 Royals

we can agree to disagree, but if you believe that the level of talent on the '08 Pirates will be less than the '04 (or '05) Royals, then the question is moot -- it won't matter who the manager is.

(I would also note that Raul Ibanez was gone after '03, and Beltran did not finish '04 as a Royal; and that Pena got fed up and quit in '05 rather than being canned.)

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sort of.

At the time he quit, he was involved in a really bloody civil proceeding, where his neighbors were getting a divorce largely because of an affair between Pena and the female neighbor. Speculation at the time was that it put too much strain on him to be able to continue as manager.

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2007 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow...

I didn't know that.

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

my wild guess

Joel Skinner

by haven on Oct 5, 2007 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

as long as I was making stuff up...

... I should have included Skinner as a poll choice. my bad.

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly...

...I think it might be Graham. Not saying he'd be a good choice or a bad one, just that he seems like someone they might choose.

Garner would probably also be tempting to them. He got a HUGE ovation before the ASG in '06, so I bet he'd be a popular choice with the fans. I'm skeptical of his decision-making ability, but what are you going to do?

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2007 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This organization deserves

Phil Garner.

An absolutely attrocious manager who lucked into a winning team in Houston and rode Clemens and Pettite (and others) to the playoffs. Otherwise, he is a terrible field manager and would not be a good choice, period.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 5, 2007 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not one of my better predictions here.

Still, I'm glad to be wrong.

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Next Manager

I think Huntington is trying to decide if it is better to have Graham in the front office or on the field.

My vote would be the unemployment line, but until that post-dated 5 billion check clears (in 2021, thank you very much), I have no say in the matter.

Consider this - even though Ed Creech gave Graham little to work with, what player dramatically improved while in the Pirate farm system? Aside from Romulo!, who else really raised up or got better?

Graham made his bones in the Cleveland system when Cleveland was a player development force. Graham had oodles of talented players flooding the system and it made his job easier.

You could argue that Graham knows the players, but he doesn't really. He wasn't with the day-to-day and his knowledge and judgement of their abilities is suspect. Leo Nunez is too scrawny to be a big league pitcher. Chris Young doesn't throw hard enough. Chris Shelton can't play defense. Jeff Keppinger just hits singles.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 5, 2007 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmm...

Brian Meadows wasn't a prospect, but he was a mid-20s guy when we signed him, and he was drastically better after he entered our farm system than he had been before. Justin Reid added some FB, but lost it again the next year.

Ronny Ballgame, maybe? It's not a very impressive list, that's for sure.

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reply

So a fungible middle relief pitcher, who barely spent any time in the Pirates minor league system, a middling pitching prospect who had a hard time staying in AAA and who the Pirates subsequently released and a catcher the minor league people supressed. It was Tracy and his coaching staff that became big fans of Paulino (for his game calling skills). Heck, Paulino was a past Rule 5 pick by KC - hew as returned to the Pirates on the last day of spring training and sent right back to Lynchburg.

You could argue that Snell might be a guy they helped, but again, the organization did all it could to hold him back.

All I know is that somehow, someway, Brian Graham thought it necessary to keep Taber Lee around. That tells me all I need to know.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 5, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just playing devil's advocate.

Your question made me curious, so I wanted to see whether I could think of anybody, and I really had to work at it to come up with even those guys.

I don't think they had much to do with Snell.

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2007 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

'fungible' - - heh

"I'll take 'Words that Sound Dirty Even though They're Not' for $500, Alex."

by humbucker on Oct 5, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What player

dramatically improved ...

Um, Steve Pearce had a nice little run.

by bucdaddy on Oct 6, 2007 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reply

I wouldn't consider Pearce as someone who dramtically improved in the system. Pearce was a high draft pick who was slow-tracked by Graham, inflating Pearce's numbers. Pearce signed as a college senior (after being drafted as a junior by the Red Sox but not being able to agree on bonus money). Pearce is old to be just dipping his toes in AAA. He should have started last season in High A and ended in AA. Pearce didn't come from nowhere and improve to become a major league player - he was always pretty good.

Pearce could turn out like Eldred - their career paths in the minors are similar, eerily so. I think Pearce has better plate discipline (which he didn't learn from the Pirates) and apparently a lot more confidence. Pearce goes into the Ed Creech drafted a good player category.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 8, 2007 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In case anybody hasn't seen

The team site and PG both say Creech, Graham and Mercurio gone, too.

Can't see that you'd fire a guy, then hire him into a higher profile job, so I don't think Graham will be the next mgr.

And Greg has some valid points about Graham.

by WTM on Oct 5, 2007 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Reply

Well, the Reds told Pete Mackannin that he was not going to be the full-time manager. Now that Graham is unemployed, I wonder if the Reds will hire him to be the field manager.

I honestly don't know if Graham is a good manager. Like I wrote earlier, I remember Graham having the most talented team on the field and managing in the minors is vastly different than at the MLB level. I do know he is a terrible director of player development and he and his staff all need to be replaced.

I wonder if Tony Beasley will be able to survive another regime change.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 5, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or Jeff Andrews

He's played a huge role in their pitcher development. I saw him at Pirate City last March and he seemed to be running the show with the pitchers, as if he was the minor league pitching coordinator rather than the AAA pitching coach. He has an exalted rep within the org., but I have to wonder how deserved it is.

by WTM on Oct 5, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reply

I should have said Jeff Banister. He has a nice little story, but he's been in the Pirates system since the late 1980s, I believe.

Andrews has a good repuation, and the Pirates do have a very stringent set of "rules" for their pitchers - pitch counts, conditioning, etc. How closely those rules are followed, I don't know - maybe Bobby Bradley would like to leave a comment. However, Andrews was a Littlefield hire from Florida, I believe, and will most likely be released.

by Greg Schuler on Oct 5, 2007 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs