ESPN Report: Padres in talks for Bay, Morris

by Alleghenys on Dec 12, 2007 12:21 PM EST

Buster Olney just posted this story: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3151599

It says the Bucs and Padres are deep in discussions about trading Jason Bay and -- get this -- Matt Morris to the West Coast. Without knowing the return, I like the concept for the Pirates. Anything that dumps Morris (without paying too much of his salary) would be welcomed.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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the deal

all i'm going to say is that it had better include chase headley. we'll probably have to eat some of morris' contract this year to get any kind of prospect.

barrett wouldn't be a terrible addition to compete with ronny for playing time.

just for fun suppose the deal was bay, morris and nady. that would mean we effettively acquired whatever return we get for ricardo rincon (traded for giles), roberto hernandez (traded w/ perez who was acquired with bay for giles) and rajai davis (traded for morris). not especially relevant but i thought it was worth pointing out.

by johnnycuff on Dec 12, 2007 12:31 PM EST reply actions

SD paper confirms report

The San Diego Union-Tribune confirms that talks are going on (midway through story): http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20071212-9999-1s12padres.html

by Alleghenys on Dec 12, 2007 12:43 PM EST reply actions

Kouz

I've been a fan and follower of Bucs Dugout for a while now. I'm glad to finally join.

This is just a hunch, but I bet that Huntington's real target in these negotiations might be Kevin Kouzmanoff. He came up through the Indians system and flat-out raked whenever he was healthy (not that often). If the Padres feel Headley is close to ready, Kouz may be a good target for us. He started slow last year, but hit well in the second half. I think he is poised for a big year and would come at a cheaper price than Headley.

by Chad Bahamas on Dec 12, 2007 1:02 PM EST reply actions

More fuel for the fire:

MLB's reporting that the Bay/Indians deal is being discussed further. Interesting how this story comes out the same time as the breaking story about Fukudome heading to the Cubs. The Padres really wanted Fukudome and were holding hope they could land him for one of their voids in the outfield. SD is in a position for outfield help. Cleveland doesnt' have a desperate need for Bay but SD appears to need someone right now.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071211&content_id=2322817&vkey=hotstove2007&fe xt=.jsp

by puget sound pirate on Dec 12, 2007 1:33 PM EST reply actions

or not

dejan disagrees:

Pirates, Padres not discussing Bay

"'Completely untrue,' a source intimately familiar with the team's recent dealings said this afternoon."

by johnnycuff on Dec 12, 2007 4:19 PM EST reply actions

the San Diego Union Tribune just

posted their response to the ESPN article. Doesn't say "completely untrue,' but a little more interesting about possibilities...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/weblog/2007/12/padres_and_pirates.html

by puget sound pirate on Dec 12, 2007 5:20 PM EST up reply actions

Why do I get the feeling

that this new regime lies like the old one does? It all starts at the top, doesn't it?

by RichieHebner on Dec 12, 2007 5:16 PM EST reply actions

I don't know, why do you?

More importantly, why make a comment like that over this?

by Willton on Dec 12, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions

Richie's right

They should be completely honest and tell the, not leak to, the media their exact intentions regarding personnel. Negotiating is overrated. Just because I tell the car dealer exactly how much I'll pay doesn't mean he won't give me a better deal. Car dealers, like GMs, are an honest bunch. Except for NH and Coonelly. They're born liars like their bosses. Clearly.

by azibuck on Dec 12, 2007 6:34 PM EST up reply actions

I am confused

They should tell the media they do not see Bay on a winning Pirates club and are actively shopping him (if in fact they are). Then, when they can't get the type of prospects they want in return for him (because teams know we are desperate to get rid of him) we either take a bad deal or he sticks around all year and both he, the other players and the fans know that the front office doesn't want him around anyway.

If they want to maximize value and do this thing the right way they have to be a little bit secretive and they have to keep other teams guessing. It is tough to be patient but it is unrealistic and a little unfair to be jumping on NH for every little news story.

Plus, who made the determination that those Bay rumors were initially leaked by our front office?

by The New Guy on Dec 12, 2007 6:46 PM EST up reply actions

Source of confusion

I was being a sarcastic jackass.

by azibuck on Dec 12, 2007 11:46 PM EST up reply actions

My mistake

it was obvious--I guess I am just pretty thick

by The New Guy on Dec 13, 2007 12:40 PM EST up reply actions

Why the sarcasm?

Don't say anything. Why gratuitously lie about it? It is a big deal because Nutting's entire operation is one big dissembling operation. This isn't about negotiation. If they were being clever, nuanced or crafty, it would be one thing. It has reached the point where almost nothing that comes out of that shop is believable.

by RichieHebner on Dec 13, 2007 5:34 PM EST reply actions

How do you know they are lying?

What makes you think that Huntington is lying and not the reporters's sources? Hell, based on what was written, how do you know Huntington or any Pirates officer said anything? You're being pretty presumptuous. Perhaps you should back off on the hate-mongering of the new regime.

by Willton on Dec 13, 2007 6:47 PM EST up reply actions

Why the sarcasm? Seriously?

Because you've become a one-trick pony, that's why. We get it already. It's the owner. And maybe you don't want to use the word "hate" for some reason, but you've got a pretty strong dislike and utter lack of respect for Coonelly and Huntington respectively. Your perogative, just give a rest, eh? Your radio station plays the same song over and over. WE GOT IT.

What you seem not to understand is that very many of us AGREE with you about the owner. Meanwhile, we have moves to discuss, and rumors to talk about, no matter how worthless or worthwhile the sources of any of the rumors may be. You keep railing against the owner and president, and slapping the rookie GM. We've got a team to watch, OK? I have no idea how a shallow-pocketed owner prevents a GM from doing any number of things to improve the roster. I see no reason why talking to another team, but publicly denying it or sending out misinformation, is a sign of incompetence.

I mean, can we just assess what happened in this thread? A run-of-the-mill hot stove rumor gets published, and without anything actually happening, you called the fucking organization a bunch of liars. You did. Maybe not in so many words, but you did. That grates on ME. Enough already, that's all I'm saying, and I've said it a few times now, doesn't that tell you something?

You seem like a bright guy. Either check out for a while (your idea), or contribute thoughts and ideas germane to the topic. Just, pretty please, with sugar on top, don't play the same fucking record again?

by azibuck on Dec 14, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions

Perhaps you should take a slightly different

perspective. From my perspective, it would be easy to say that you are being an apologist, and hyperbolizing a tad by accusing me of "hate-mongering."

Is it true that I don't like any of what I've seen. Yeah. In my opinion, there is no "new regime" here. If we could get past that canard, this debate might actually be worth having.

What you have is better technician(Huntington) who is less prone to making colossal blunders with scarce resources than his predecessor. As Wilbur noted elsewhere, there is no mandate for a teardown and rebuild. Unless you are excited by incrementalism, there is nothing here for you.

I want the perennial contenders I was used to, and I think it can be done. It cannot be done, however, while Bob Nutting is running this team. I have nothing at all against Neal Huntington. He seems like a really decent guy. I don't know Frank Coonelly, but the reports I get are uniformly negative.

That said, I certainly don't "hate" any of them. However, I think that supporting these guys while they claim to be able to contend and build a long-term contender is buying into a pipe dream and lining a supremely cynical and slimy owner's pocket.

On the issue that provoked this exchange, I don't know that the Pirates are lying, but I've had friends in the front office for the better part of twenty years, and they have told me that lying has been a staple of management policy since Carl Barger, it got worse under Nutting and has not improved at all since September. In this particular case, the Pirate source said the story that they had been "deep into discussions" with the Padres about Bay were "completely untrue." That is probably true, but they were leaving the impression that no talks were going on, and I don't buy it.

Is this a big deal in and of itself? Of course not. Negotiations require non denial denials sometimes--we all know that. But the way they do business grates on me, and I know enough about how they do business to have become far too cynical for my own good. I probably should check out for a while, since I have nothing positive to say, but I've been a fan of this team for 42 seasons, and these past 15 have been hard. The fireworks, the pierogis, Ed Eagle and Jennifer Langosch, the schlock, the lock-step press releases and interview catch phrases, the consultant-speak that is designed to cover up crummy management, incompetence, lying and venality are more than I can take.

Sorry if I've offended. I've just tired of emotionally investing myself in a franchise that doesn't give a rat's ass about its fans. I don't believe Nutting, Coonelly or Huntington really care about this franchise's heritage, and the whole thing has just become more mercenary and bloodless than I can take. There is no winner in sight to serve as a palliative. Just an endless field of bull**, as far as the eye can see.

by RichieHebner on Dec 13, 2007 10:55 PM EST reply actions

That damn word

apologist keeps coming up. Econo were you actually being called an apologist on two sights?

by Piratefan13 on Dec 14, 2007 1:38 PM EST reply actions

You've made your point

and I am done making mimyne. For what it is worth, I find myself repeating self because I really don't think you do "get it," and the fact that you are won't think critically about what these guys say and do grates on me, but we'll just agree to disagree. Since repetition is just annoying everyone and convincing no one, by all means let's go back to following rumors and watching the team. We're all suckers and we all love them, or we wouldn't be here. Some of us will do it with more enthusiasm than others, is all.

Now, back to the subject of the thread. Let's say the rumor is true and they are talking with the Padres about Bay. Short of Headley, what is it these guys have that we want? If we are selling Jason Bay circa 2006, Antonelli is about the only other product they have that is the least bit enticing, and even then not so much. Kouzmanoff does nothing for me. I think the only real course with Bay is let him get it back, and do a deal in the summer, preferably with the Blue Jays. Marte, I would deal sooner than later. The way people are collecting relievers, I don't see a better return there anytime, unless he is lights out in June and July. Even then, I don't think you get as much back then as you do now.

by RichieHebner on Dec 14, 2007 3:08 PM EST reply actions

we may not be as "enlightened" as you

when it comes to the Pirates front office but christ man, let it rest. There is nothing that you can do or say that is going to change it. Period. Maybe you can start a blog called "I hate the Pirates Front Office" and you can rant about them every single day. I would read it every time I would get frustrated with every bone-headed move they would make. Trust me, we get you.

Seriously, take your own advice and take some time off. Enjoy the holidays, drink some eggnog or whatever else will take the edge off and visit some family and friends. Reflect on those 'perennial contenders' you remember and think about how many teams have never won a WS.

by puget sound pirate on Dec 14, 2007 4:09 PM EST up reply actions

Relax folks

I'm done...I'm done. I am going to try this one last time, and that really is it. No more posts on this site about the franchise unless some serious event warrants it.

Here is my last comment for now on the general state of the franchise. No one is claiming enlightenment--just some personal experience. And I don't agree that nothing can be done to change it. Stop going to the games, and I really mean that. The empty seats have a much more devastating PR effect than financial effect. There is an objective here, and while I didn't think so before, I now believe a boycott can be helpful. Next is sustained ridicule and holding to account. Smizik's ranting every week ultimately helped get rid of Littlefield, but we're not there. I think sustained outrage, complete indifference to anything that is done under Nutting's supervision, a boycott and relentless, harsh, nasty, unsparing blogging is the way to keep the pressure on them. It is a terrible mistake to give these guys time, in my opinion, because this is simply not an honest effort. You may disagree, but I am completely confident of this. So they make a few good moves? Unless it is part of a real teardown and rebuild, it is a waste of time. The Pirates are outliers in an increasingly merciless economic structure. Even the Royals are outspending them.

Have fun moving around the furniture. I'd rather lend my energy to any serious effort to tear down the whole fucking house.

In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the holidays. Let me know how the analysis of Chris Gomez's splits goes.

by RichieHebner on Dec 14, 2007 4:39 PM EST reply actions

I'm unsure how things will turn out

with Coonelly and Huntington. But, I believe the incremental approach will fail given the Nutting refusal to spend money.

I thought we'd have a clear idea about the new regime before the winter meetings. Currently, though, I'm waiting for the organization to draft and sign some prospects before I commit to a more settled opinion than I now have.

Still, Huntington looks like he's dragging a boat anchor across the Pacific....

by steve_z on Dec 14, 2007 9:33 PM EST up reply actions

Wow!

by Slick @ Bucs Dugout on Dec 14, 2007 9:05 PM EST reply actions

Boycott if you want

You can't force a change in ownership. Nutting bought the team when no one else wanted it, certainly not in Pittsburgh. Staying away from the park just gives him an excuse not to invest in the team, whether he would otherwise or not.
I not only plan to go back in 2008, I upgraded my season tickets and don't apologize for it. I love baseball, I love the Pirates, and I'll support them now and in the future. I admit that makes me a sucker to some extent, but I think it also makes me a true fan.
We'll welcome the boycotters back when the team improves.

by TPenaRules on Dec 15, 2007 1:58 PM EST reply actions

The Nuttings officially took control...

...of the Pirates last winter. Mark Cuban and others with local ties had just recently indicated that they wanted to buy the Pirates. They were rebuffed by the Nuttings. The Nuttings had no reason to sell to Cuban or any one else given the money they were making from the team. In fact, they preferred to keep their stake in the Pirates to gaining a slots license for Seven Springs.

So, it is a false claim that the Nuttings bought the team when no one else wanted it.

by steve_z on Dec 15, 2007 2:17 PM EST up reply actions

Well said

Steve. As to whether you can force a change of ownership, the objective is to make the Nuttings think that there are other investments out there that involve fewer headaches. Thus far, they have effectively dodged criticism by staying out of sight and letting the media and fans take off on the likes of McClatchy, Bonifay, Littlefield, Lamont, McClendon and Tracy. All of those folks are now gone, and Bob Nutting has consented to become a public figure. He chose Frank Coonelly himself. Now, we'll see how things go. Unless Huntington can pull rabbits out of hats, the limited budget (Nutting's choice) will show up on the field. Then Smizik and everyone else will emerge again, and this time Bob Nutting will have a target on. These people have shown themselves hypersensitive to the comparatively little criticism they have received. Let's see how they react if circumstances warrant more, and it begins descending onto Bob Nutting on a daily basis, and he gets booed every time he shows up at the ballpark.

by RichieHebner on Dec 15, 2007 5:09 PM EST reply actions

I suspect the Nuttings believe...

...it's possible to win on the cheap. It's surely possible; it's also improbable.

by steve_z on Dec 15, 2007 9:43 PM EST up reply actions

It is possible...

but it requires a plan, does not happen over night and is dependent upon creativity and risk taking...reference the recent Haren trade. Given the lack of depth in the org I would seriously consider what an Ian Snell or Gorzo or even Maholm (to a lesser degree because he would bring the least return) would bring back to the system. If Haren can bring 4 of teams top 10 prospects along with 2 other players I would think Snell could land 2 top 10 with another mid- level prospect. Daring 3-1 trades are the only thing that is going to get us competitive in a short period of time (2-3 years). This is also the recommended course of action for Bay at the trade deadline assuming he returns to form. Once we replenish the system we obviously have to draft well and be more aggressive in the international markets. Now whether Nutting believes it or not is another thing. We will find out based on how we draft.

by Slick @ Bucs Dugout on Dec 15, 2007 10:12 PM EST up reply actions

It always comes back...

to money. Did you notice Vizcaino's contract? It was 2 years, and while it was a bit high it wasn't crazy. Until Nutting gives the ok to pay what it takes...even if the Bucs have to over-pay...the Pirates won't be taken seriously. Look at Kansas City. If nothing else the Royals have gotten the attention of players who will be free agents. They've sent a message that they are for real. Building from within IS the way to go, but spending to add productive players till you get the system up is a sign of real owner commitment. Mark Cuban operates the Mavs on a break even basis. If Nutting is pocketing money, he's screwing the fan base. My advice to Bob is to buy another business and sell the Bucs to someone who wants to win...NOW...AND from now on.

by tjmac on Dec 15, 2007 10:58 PM EST reply actions

I agree.

You're right that invesitng in free agents to fill holes and make a team competitive does show ownership committment. I don't have a lot of faith in the Nuttings but these are the same owners that allowed DL to overspend on Burnitz and Randa and also approved the trade for Morris. That is the kind of over spending you are refferring to unfortunately the old regime was horrible at identifying talent. We do need to attract free agents but the free agents will come when the team is competitive. The Rockies weren't able to attract anyone worth mentioning until recently. KC is a good example of what needs to be done. Moore has been very aggressive since taken over and has not been afraid to make moves. I think we need to give NH a little time. We cannot judge him until he has had a chance to make a difference. I'm really not sure how much Viz could have helped out. In all honesty, if we were seriously considering signing him we would have been just as well off keeping Chacon. Problem is they both wanted multiyear contracts and investing multiyear contracts in relief pitchers is a risly propositio. How well did the Torres extension work out for us. Again, I don't disagree with your statement I just believe I team like the Pirates must be real picky with the free agents they are going to overspend on. In the grand scheme of things we are still looking at a losing season in 08 and a player like Viz may be the difference of +1 or 2 wins. I'd rather see the money go to sigining a Wieters in the draft. Once we have the ship going in the right direction, that we can spend to put the pieces in place to put us over the top.

by Slick @ Bucs Dugout on Dec 16, 2007 12:00 AM EST up reply actions

Just know this...

...(and I'm not altogether disagreeing with you) the approach you outline puts us on another 4 to 5 years of losing big. I think the Bucs need to do a combination of both...evaluate and sign top talent AND do the things to be competitive in the near term. We blew all those top draft picks or we would be where you and I would like us to be. (The reason we blew them is money, by the way.) Pirate ownership and management needs to be bold, aggressive, and creative NOW to halt the losing. I don't know about you, but the thought of another 5 years of this same crap is more than I can bear. I hope we see some signs of commitment soon.

by tjmac on Dec 16, 2007 9:33 AM EST reply actions