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Reality Check, Part II

UPDATE 3:03 AM: Just wanted to add a couple of things about Barton in response to Rogero's comment below. Barton has gotten on base a lot in the minors, but he's been old for his leagues. You can't take those numbers at face value, especially not for the purpose of predicting what he would do in the majors this year.

Let's play a game Rob Neyer used to play a lot:

PLAYER A Age 25, Class AA .291/.409/.462 381 AB 27 2B 12 HR
PLAYER B Age 26, Class AA .333/.407/.478 138 AB, 7 2B, 3 HR
PLAYER C Age 24, Class AA .305/.392/.468, 472 AB, 32 2B, 11 HR
PLAYER D Age 25, Class AA .314/.416/.440 389 AB, 18 2B, 9 HR
PLAYER E Age 24, Class AA .304/.396/.440 368 AB, 21 2B, 7 HR
PLAYER F Age 25, Class AA .282/.393/.488 451 AB, 29 2B, 20 HR

Which one's Barton? Can anyone guess?

Player A is Mike Stodolka, who was the fourth overall pick in the 2000 draft. He was a minor-league free agent after the season, so the Royals re-signed him to a minor-league deal. He made the transition from prospect to bust long ago.

Player B was Pirate farmhand Adam Boeve in 2006.

Player C is Angels third baseman Freddy Sandoval. Ever heard of him? I hadn't. Ever seen him on a list of the Angels' top ten prospects? I haven't. And Sandoval's younger than Barton, and he plays a tougher position, and he can steal bases.

Player D is Barton.

Player E is Tampa Bay first baseman Chris Nowak, who was eligible for the Rule 5 draft. He also can steal bases. Nobody took him, and nobody talked about him.

Player F is Marlins third baseman Lee Mitchell. I'd never heard of him before today. I believe he would've been eligible for the Rule 5 this year too; in any case, he was drafted in 2003 and isn't on the Marlins' 40-man. Nobody noticed him.

My point here is that a high OBP at the Class AA level means almost nothing for a 25-year-old. It certainly doesn't mean the player is going to have a high OBP in the majors. It often just means he's beating up on journeymen and younger prospects. Guys in their mid-20s who can post a good batting average and a good OBP at Class AA are not rare. In fact, they often aren't even considered prospects. And yes, I know that some of them aren't as athletic as Barton. But some of them are. And some of them have better power, or are younger.

I don't mean to be down on Barton. He can certainly be a decent bench outfielder in the majors. He'd be a good Rule 5 pick for the right team. But the Pirates don't need a bench outfielder right now, and they definitely don't need one who'd might well be out of his league in the majors right now anyway. I mean no disrespect to anyone who lobbied for Barton, but I think his are the sorts of minor league numbers that become a lot less interesting when one considers their context.

* * * * *
Following up on Pat's "reality check" post from Tuesday, I continue to be surprised about all the negativity I see about everything Neal Huntington has done so far. So, picking up where Pat left off, let's continue:

1. There is no reason whatsoever to be upset about the waiver claims Huntington has made. Ty Taubenheim, Kevin Thompson, Josh Wilson, Jimmy Barthmaier and Phil Dumatrait are not world-beaters, but, to my knowledge, Huntington has never claimed that they were. And while I'm not exactly sure why the Pirates acquired Wilson, these are all minor moves that, given the terrible state of the back end of the Pirates' roster, have just about no downside. If the worst thing that happens here is that the Pirates lose Shane Youman, well, trust me, there is nothing to complain about.

2. In my opinion, no one should be upset that the Bucs didn't pick Brian Barton or Chris Lubanski or whomever in the Rule 5 draft. (Well, except Lubanski's parents or something.) Lubanski's an interesting player, but he hit .208 in 168 at bats at Class AAA last year, and the Pirates already have a zillion outfielders. How are they supposed to keep Lubanski on the roster all season? And how are they supposed to keep Barton, another outfielder who flopped in a small sample at AAA last year and who doesn't have Lubanski's upside?

If the Pirates were short on outfielders, then I could almost see the complaint, but outfielders are the one thing the Pirates already have enough of. And there's a reason so many teams chose pitchers this year - it's really hard, especially in the National League, to keep a position player on the roster the whole year unless he can play lots of positions or is already very good. Neither Lubanski nor Barton fall into either of those categories.

I hesitate to even mention this name here for fear of a flame war, but remember all the problems the Pirates had with J.J. Davis in 2004? Davis wasn't a Rule 5 pick, of course, but he was out of options, so the Pirates couldn't just send him to the minors willy-nilly. So Lloyd McClendon kept him glued to the bench, where his presence handicapped the Pirates tactically. And then twice a week, McClendon would put Davis into a game and Davis would, like, try to throw a runner out at home by throwing the ball into the bullpen, or something, probably because he couldn't stay fresh from sitting on the bench all the time. Then, the Pirates had to claim that Davis had an injury - Davis said he was fine - in order to send him to Class AAA for a long rehab assignment.

Now, think whatever you want about Davis, but keep in mind that, unlike Lubanski or Barton, Davis had thoroughly dominated AAA by then. Would you really want the Pirates to spend the entire year with an outfielder on the roster who'd play as much as Davis did in 2004, and probably just as badly? Would you really want that even if it meant that Steve Pearce, who has no business in the minors, had to go back there? Would you want it even if it seriously stunted Lubanski's development (as it almost certainly would)? And why would you want to do that with a player like Barton, who'll be 26 early next season and has almost no star potential?

Relievers are much easier to keep on the roster than outfielders. Evan Meek has a better chance of working out than Barton or Lubanski would, and if he does, then you can trade a more expensive reliever for a prospect you don't have to hide on the major league roster.

3. No one should be upset that Huntington hasn't made a major move yet. These things can take time, so let's wait a couple months until we flip out. Huntington isn't acquiring Ty Taubenheim instead of making major moves. The more important moves will probably come later. If they don't, let's complain then.  

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my only problem
My only problem with Huntington has nothing to do with Huntington. He was hired by the Pirates.  I completely lack trust in the Pirates ownership.  I think their only goal is pocketing profits.  Huntington will have to succeed for me to think anything but the worst of him.  Unfair.  Probably.  But I lived through some good years.  Was 18 in '79.  Remember '71 when I was 10. At least I have some good memories that younger fans do not.....   But it also makes me want more than just a moderately competative team.

by haven on Dec 6, 2007 9:09 PM EST reply actions  

Reality, Indeed
The reason Huntington came away from the meetings with no trade is that he wouldn't give Jason Bay away.  He came close on a deal with Cleveland, but taking Cliff Lee's 10+ million would be wasting money the Bucs could spend elsewhere,  He may get Laffey or Sowers or somebody yet and it'll be a reasonably good trade.  This team may have to be blown up to re-stock the system...and that means more than Bay will go.  More fans are likely to be unhappy about that than the seemingly slow pace of change.

by tjmac on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 PM EST reply actions  

I am not unhappy about this.......
As pessimistic as I am, I am not paricularly unhappy that Huntington came away empty from the winter meetings.

But here is my issue....  I don't want to read revisionist history if Bay continues to decline.  Or if Lee rebounds.  I know Huntington can't predict the future just like I can't predict the future.  But if Huntington read things wrong then I don't want to sugar coat what happened.

by haven on Dec 6, 2007 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

If he gets Sowers...
...that's not a good trade, just one that's less bad than one that ends up with us getting Lee.

by Vlad on Dec 6, 2007 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Barton
I think you underestimate Barton, Charlie.  Going into this year he was 324/421/509 in 2 years in the minors, mostly in A ball, with 42 games in AA (though he was a bit old for those leagues--not unlike Jason Bay in fact).  Sickels ranked him the 32nd best hitting prospect in the minors, right ahead of Travis Buck, Salty, and Votto.  Back in AA this year he was 314/416/440 , and then he played 25 games in AAA that didn't go so well, 264/333/333.  

Notice anything?  He gets on base.  A lot. The Pirates are desparate for someone like that. He also has a good glove and can run.

There would have been room for him on the roster as 5th OFer behind Bay, McLouth, Nady, and Pierce with Doumit as backup catcher.  All he would have to do is beat out Morgan and Duffy for that spot.  I'd rather have his future than theirs  (this isn't asbout '08; it's about accumulating talent for a run a few years from now).

It's quite possible, though, that Barton's knee surgery scared the Pirates away, although the Cardinals didn't let it bother them.

Sure a reliever is easier to fit on to the roster.  But this isn't about winning an extra game or two in '08.  

by rogero on Dec 6, 2007 10:30 PM EST reply actions  

Why be upset
I'm upset because Neal Huntington is inexperienced.  I'm upset because this team is years behind the curve, and the situation called for opening the vaults for the sharpest, most gifted executive talent available. I'm upset because they instead hired a guy who was a third echelon scout (after having been demoted) at bargain basement prices, to be supervised by a micromanager who detests the financial system he has no choice but to compete in.  I'm upset because that person works hand in glove with an unprincipled owner who knows nothing about baseball or Pittsburgh, and cares less, but who knows a gravy train when he sees it.  I'm upset because this team's fans are so desperate they will look for any excuse to justify giving these guys a chance, without pausing a minute to realize they are screwed before they begin.  I really don't care what Huntington does, to be honest.  As long as he works for this sorry assed bunch, he is already set up to fail.  This can't be done without at least a free agent or two, and that isn't going to happen.  I think you're all wasting your time and energy.  It is much better spent on sustained pressure to drive this ownership nuts, and out of town. Truth to tell, I feel bad for guys like Huntington, Stark and Russell, because this may be the only chance they get, and it isn't going to end well.

by RichieHebner on Dec 6, 2007 11:03 PM EST reply actions  

LOL
"This can't be done without at least a free agent or two"

The Drive for 75 lives on!

by matskralc on Dec 7, 2007 6:49 AM EST up reply actions  

It looks like NH is dumping salary
He ay be trying to keep within his budget while putting away money for the future. If so, then the blame falls on the Nutting partnership, which is where it always falls.

by steve_z on Dec 7, 2007 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Couldn't agree with you more, Charlie.
The McClatchy/Littlefield regime is out and its way too early to compare the newbies to that train wreck of a front office. Way too early...

by puget sound pirate on Dec 7, 2007 4:44 AM EST reply actions  

No moves=Good moves
I agree with Charlie, too. The Pirates will have to move an outfielder at some point, probably Nady or Bay. But why do it when X is coming off injury and Bay's coming off his worst season. Start Pearce at AAA, let Nady and Bay prove they're healthy and hitting, then deal them midseason. It's not like you're trading a free agent to be, so the return should be much better than a "solid" catcher and McClouth clone.
On a different note, I wonder if the Yankees are trying to get Snell to flip him in a Santana deal (or at least give them a replacement for Hughes or Kennedy if they move).

by TPenaRules on Dec 7, 2007 8:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Hebner
I agree.  The very best prospect out there for us is (was) Mark Cuban.  This is an ownership issue.  Vlad, you may see more value in Bay than I do.  Eventually we have to get a better throwing arm in LF along with the power.  The thing about JBay that scares me now is that he may become very average very quickly.  I'm not sure we could get 2 can't-miss prospects for him.

by tjmac on Dec 7, 2007 8:36 AM EST reply actions  

Yes Grasshoppers
All this talk is rubbish. It does not matter what the Pirates do at the top level. It is what they do at the bottom levels that matters. They have not hired a pitching coordinator. Almost one year now without one. Young guys in the off season, good players, with no one to work with them.

Take 10% of the $10 frikkin million wasted dollars on a "name" player that is a waste of money and go hire the best minor league coaches who are TEACHERS. Then you will have something.

You think Joba Chamberlain got good by osmosis the way the Pirates are hoping their minor league system is?

Miguel Bonilla handling $2 million worth of investments in arms at Bradenton???

Would you spend $2 million on a race horse then hire a guy for $40,000 to train him? Would you feed him garbage? Would you make him live like a rat? Wouldn't you nourish him? Feed him? Train him with the best trainer money could buy?????

The Pirates are jerking off every fan that roots for them until you make MASSIVE sweeping Minor League changes across the board.

If you keep on doing what you are doing, then you are going to keep on getting what you are getting.

Garbage in, garbage out???

Jason Bay or Jason Schmay, it does not matter until you have someone to teach these young guys.

Billy Pirates

by BillyPirates on Dec 7, 2007 9:01 AM EST reply actions  

Joba Chamberlain
Yeah, he got good with all 18 games of minor league teaching.  The best you can make out of lemons is lemon bars, but even then you need a good shortbread crust.  The org needs talent before teachers.

by azibuck on Dec 7, 2007 11:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Billy Pirates Gets It!
But first it starts with good scouting. You need to get players that have the potential to play in the big leagues and then you must have skilled teachers who can teach them how to play.

by thegunner on Dec 7, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions  

Hey, looks like fun!
Player G: Age 25, Class AA, .309/.362/.495, 527 AB, 47 2B, 17 HR.

Player G is Christian Colonel, a 3B in the Rockies' system, who was eligible but not chosen (though BPro thought he might be).

Since it seemed like it might be fun from a retroactive-prediction standpoint, I went back and pulled all the age 24-26 players from the EL in 2002 with at least a couple hundred ABs who had something in the vicinity of a .850 OPS. That way, we have a chance to see the hit/miss rate on guys with that offensive profile. Now, on with the list!

Jody Gerut, OF, 24, 256 AB, .281/.366/.461
Freddy Sanchez, SS, 24, 311 AB, .328/.399/.437
Wilton Veras, 3B, 24, 271 AB, .336/.388/.491
John Gall, 1B, 24, 526 AB, .316/.362/.527
Dee Haynes, OF, 24, 504 AB, .312/.344/.510
Bucky Jacobsen, 1B, 26, 300 AB, .267/.335/.497 (time split between EL and SL)
Terrmel Sledge, OF, 25, 396 AB, .301/.386/.437
Aaron McNeal, 1B, 24, 348 AB, .299/.379/.506
Carlos Rivera, 1B, 24, 494 AB, .302/.338/.500
Travis Chapman, 3B, 24, 478 AB, .301/.372/.473
Charley Carter, 1B, 26, 492 AB, .280/.348/.478
Shawn Fagan, 1B, 24, 421 AB, .268/.411/.411
DeWayne Wise, OF, 24, 340 AB, .297/.352/.471
Kevin Cash, C, 24, 213 AB, .277/.382/.469
Rene Reyes, OF, 24, 455 AB, .292/.335/.475
Kevin Burford, 1B, 24, 266 AB, .282/.392/.410
Aaron Miles, 2B, 25, 531 AB, .322/.370/.450
Steve Scarborough, SS, 24, 322 AB, .283/.376/.444
Pete Laforest, C, 24, 359 AB, .270/.375/.493
Mike Edwards, OF, 25, 424 AB, .307/.368/.439
Rob Hammock, C, 25, 441 AB, .290/.353/.447
Steve Neal, 1B, 25, 407 AB, .283/.379/.472
Royce Huffman, 1B, 25, 522 AB, .322/.371/.471
Jason Alfaro, 3B, 24, 455 AB, .314/.382/.508
Jason Jones, 1B, 25, 471 AB, .295/.405/.456
Mike O'Keefe, 1B, 24, 468 AB, .280/.364/.517

That's it. Looking at the list, there are four guys who worked their way into at least a semi-regular job in the majors: Gerut, Freddy, Sledge, and Miles. (Maybe a half-point for Bucky, if you're charitable.)

Among CF types, Gerut and Sledge were at least mild successes, while Wise and Reyes weren't able to get established. In terms of overall skill package Barton is probably closest to Sledge, but since Sledge was later exposed as a steroid user, it's hard to draw too much predictive value from the comp. That's OK, I guess; this is more of a fun game than a scientific analysis.

by Vlad on Dec 7, 2007 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

D'oh!
That should've read AA as a whole, not just the EL.

by Vlad on Dec 7, 2007 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Last Year...
I saw Bucky Jacobson play for the Long Island Ducks.  He's a beast and can hit a baseball half a mile.  He had a cup of coffee with the Mariners in 2004 and was pretty awesome until his knee needed surgery...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003534221_bucky21.html

by bryanzane on Dec 7, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, Charlie
You're right, you're playing a game, and not a very interesting one.  Cherry picking a season for a few players in the history of the game as a basis for judging players is not very illuminating.  But let me indulge you for a minute.

Jason Bay in his age 23 season:
A+  272/363/437 in 295 PA
AA  290/383/477 in 122 PA

Barton age 24
AA  314/416/440 in 430 PA

But we have to be more precise.  Bay was an old 23, Barton a young 24.  Bay's age at the mid point of the season:  23 yrs 9 mos 12 days.  Barton: 24 years 2 mos 7 days.  Yep, Barton was a whopping 4 mos and 26 days older.

So, based on that one season for each, who is the better prospect?

One reason Barton has been old for his leagues is he wasn't even drafted in '04 when he finished playing at U. of Miami, not because of lack of talent, but because everyone thought he was going to "drop baseball in favor oif an aerospace engineering career" (Sickels).  Cleveland signed him as a FA and convinced him to try baseball in '05.  So add very intelligent to toolsy, athletic, good strike zone judgement, and power to all fields.  As Goldstein said, he's been the smartest guy on every team he's played for (maybe you could think of him as the anti-Jack Flash).  

I don't take numbers "at their face value" and I do consider context.  And I put more stock in the thoughts of specialists like Sickels and Goldstein, who have access to networks of scouts who actually watch these guys, to flesh out those numbers, than I do in games played by a generalist like Neyer.

I've already mentioned how high Sickels is on him.  He gave him a B+ in the '07 book.  I'm guessing he drops to a B for '08.  Here's Goldstein yesterday on Barton being drafted by the Cardinals.  "Some people saw Barton as a possible number one pick, but he does have some health concerns, as there are whispers that a recent knee surgery was not entirely successful, and that he might be permanently affected by the injury. Barton is a career .317/.417/.476 hitter who does many things well, but few things very well.
Chances To Stick: Excellent. Provided he's healthy, Barton has everything it takes to be a solid fourth outfielder immediately."  Of the 18 players drafted, Barton was the only one whom Goldstein thought had an excellent chance to stick.

Barton is no lock to be good, but he looks like precisely the gamble the Pirates need to take because they are desparate for more offense.

And that's the real rub between you and me, Charlie.  You repeated again that the Pirates "don't need a bench outfielder right now".  

Three points.  (1) This isn't about right now.  It's about accumulating talent, particularly offensive talent, anywhere thay can find it.  If they collect an excess somewhere, that's what trades are for.

(2)  There is lots of room in the Bucco OF for more talent.  Who can they build around to become a contender?  Bay is gone as soon as he can, particularly if he bounces back, and if he doesn't he'll be no help.  McCutchen is a piece, but he'll likely start '08 in Indy.  I like McLouth and think he should be given a full shot in '08 to show what he can do.  But other teams are catching on, and it looks like the Pirates may see him as mostly a tradeable chip after his strong finish last year.  I like Pearce too, but he's not a real OFer, at least not yet, and he may be confined to RF given the size of LF in PNC.  Nady is 29, a platoon, defensively challenged OFer.  I don't see any future for Duffy or Morgan.  Lots of room for Barton.  he can play LF in PNC.

(3) There is room right now for Barton in the '08 OF.  Send both Duffy and Morgan down.  

 

by rogero on Dec 7, 2007 11:29 AM EST reply actions  

Are we looking at the same birthdays?
Barton was 25 in baseball age during the season you're describing, not 24. Bay was 23 in baseball age during that season, about 17 months younger than Barton. It's apples and oranges. Barton will be 26 in April; even granting a few extra points for his background, he's probably already about 90% of what he's ever going to be, and he's potentially about to spend the year riding the bench. Is he going to be a good player when he finishes that year, if he isn't sent back to Cleveland? Frankly, I doubt it.

Point taken about sending Duffy and Morgan down, but I think the Pirates will keep one of them. But I agree with you - I wouldn't exactly cry my eyes out if that didn't happen.

Goldstein also said that Meek would "probably" stick.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 7, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Barton
You're right about Barton's age; I miscalulated.  Born Apr 25, '82.  Bay was about 17 months younger in the seasons described.  I don't think that makes the comparison apples and oranges, though, and if I wanted to spend the time, or had Vlad as a researcher, I could find other examples.  Did you know Shane Victorino was entering his age 25 season, with less of a track record than Barton, when the Phillies snatched him in a rule 5.

I don't know that Barton would be stuck on the bench the whole year.  With McLouth in CF, who else can play LF in PNC on their roster except Bay (no fair answering Duffy or Morgan; they're really be worthless on a corner).  And if they trade Bay and don't get someone back who can play out there (one reason I see some value in the trade rumor with Cleveland is Gutierrez would look great out there), what then?  Point is, Barton was a costless piece to get and he could make it easier to do the inevitable Bay trade.  If he worked out they could fill some other hole.

Meek wasn't a bad pick, and he fits in with what everyone else was doing--grabbing pitchers who might stick.  But the Pirates aren't like other teams.  They need to grab every decent young hitter they can get, much more than filling out their pen in '08.  They're not competitive now.  

by rogero on Dec 7, 2007 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Barton
But the point isn't that Barton's a bench outfielder "right now." It's that he's a minor leaguer with OK AA numbers coming off of surgery that PROJECTS to be a bench outfielder. If you're a team planning on trading your bullpen away, why add another potential Nate McLouth when you can get free potential bullpen help? You're very rarely going to get someone that makes a long term difference in the Rule 5 and arguing over what goes on in the Rule 5 is generally irrelevant unless you do something incredibly stupid or someone else does something incredibly stupid that let's you look incredibly smart. Barton isn't one of those players.

The real thing we should be pissed about is trading Torres away for two middling minor-league relievers.

http://whereisvanslyke.blogspot.com
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/mlb

by whygavs on Dec 7, 2007 2:38 PM EST reply actions  

Barton
Don't know where you get the idea Barton projects as a bench player.  Sickels' B+ in his '07 book means likely to spend several years in the majors with a good chance at a successful career.  Some could become stars, some won't.  That was before his knee injury however.

Do you have better source?

by rogero on Dec 7, 2007 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Someone liked the pick
Kevin Goldstein of BP

"Meek might be the best chance of any pick to be lightning in a bottle . . ."

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Dec 7, 2007 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

Barton
I think two things that aren't adequately being taken into account are the knee injury and his attitude.  The Pirates have had their own experiences with guys tearing up their knees.  Armando Rios never recovered.  Jody Gerut took two years, assuming that his big showing in Venezuela shows he has indeed recovered.  The Twins' Jason Kubel still hasn't fully come back from tearing up his knee three years ago.

On the other issue, BA said that scouts were very unhappy with what they saw of Barton's attitude this past year.  You never get a lot of specifics with stuff like that, but I've always noticed a surprising correlation between young players getting that rep and going on to play below their ability.  May not happen with Barton, but it adds a significant risk factor.

by WTM on Dec 7, 2007 7:38 PM EST reply actions  

Attitude
One of BA's blog posts tried to make him look like he was eccentric; not sure whether that'd play into it or not. He apparently has a pet turtle that he like to take with him on road trips.

I think it's risky to assume that Barton will be able to play CF next year, given the surgery. If you want to make a case for him, I think you need to treat him like a corner OF prospect, and then count it as a bonus if he can run well enough to handle CF in the spring.

by Vlad on Dec 8, 2007 3:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Torres Deal
If all NH could get in a trade for Torres is two minor league relief pitchers with questionable "lines", then Torres should have been packaged with some other tradeable players to produce more. I don't mind trading Torres, but this was nothing more than a deal to cut payroll.

by thegunner on Dec 7, 2007 11:21 PM EST reply actions  

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