Robbie Grossman Video
Alex Eisenberg over at Hardball Times breaks down Robbie Grossman's swing from both sides of the plate. His review is generally positive, as it emphasize's Grossman's short, quick swing. He does see some issues, but concludes that "Grossman is going to take a lot of coaching up, but the potential to be an average-above average regular in center field is there." A key question will be whether the transformation of the scouting and drafting systems will also bring a transformation of the player development system. One can hope.
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Alex Eisenberg???
What are his credentials and why should we pay any attention to him?
Robbie Grossman’s swing looks just fine to me for a switchhitter just out of high school.
Scouting AND player development are two critical areas that have been a problem for the Pirates for a long time. We should only expect these areas to improve if there is a significant change in scouting and player development personnel.
by thegunner on
Oct 17, 2008 7:28 PM EDT
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I understood the article to be saying that Grossman has a good swing and has a lot of potential with the right coaching.
by WTM on
Oct 17, 2008 9:52 PM EDT
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Not What I Got
Eisenberg seems to be both hypercritical and overly analytical to me.
That’s why I’d like to know what Eisenberg’s credential are.
Grossman looks like he can swing the bat; however, the video that I saw of Wesley Freeman a few weeks ago made me feel like he is going to be a real project in terms of his hitting. I think that Freeman needs a lot of work, and the Pirates have their work cut out for them.
by thegunner on
Oct 18, 2008 12:55 AM EDT
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video
I thought he did an OK job breaking down Grossman, but felt he was way off on the second pitcher. That guy looks like a certain injury to me.
by bolton on
Oct 18, 2008 5:50 AM EDT
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re:
Oh, don’t get me wrong…Kimbrel is a big injury risk, but I don’t predict injuries because there are so many outside factors at play—genetics, past unrelated injuries, work load and past mechanics not just from high school and college, but little league as well, and conditioning (very, very important and this goes back to a young age) to name just a few.
So I do take note of a pitcher’s injury risk, but it can’t be a deciding factor because all pitchers are at risk for injury and major injuries happen to pitchers of all mechanical types. It’s easy to predict who will get injured but it’s hard to predict who will not get injured.
First thing I look for is current performance and the potential to get better. Kimbrel possesses some straight nasty stuff and should he remain healthy, he will be a formidable piece in the back of Atlanta’s bullpen relatively soon.
Also, I want to thank Roberto for linking to my work as it is definitely much appreciated.
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 19, 2008 11:25 PM EDT
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And..
Thanks for the work. Even if I disagree with you on a player, I like what you’re doing. It’s fun to see the video.
by bolton on
Oct 20, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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I'm glad you enjoy it...
The purpose of what I do, despite incorporating more of an emphasis on mechanics is to provide at least some visual aid to the scouting report produced so readers can form their own conclusions
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 22, 2008 2:05 AM EDT
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Alex, Thanks for stopping by to explain things. You’re always welcome here, even if you did go to JMU.
by Charlie on
Oct 20, 2008 7:55 PM EDT
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thanks, Charlie
You definitely do a terrific job with this site.
I have to ask now, what school did you go to?
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 22, 2008 2:09 AM EDT
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Hi gunner,
I’m the author of that article. I’m not sure my credentials will be enough for you. I’m a sports writer for a local newspaper in Northern Virginia and I was a Kinesiology major in college and spent much of my college time researching and learning about the biomechanics of baseball from a variety of sources I felt were trustworthy…Tom House, Paul Nyman, Carlos Gomez, Jeff Albert just to name a few. I researched what constitutes a high-level swing and what constitutes major league quality mechanics and I’ve collected and watched hundreds of clips to form my own opinions as well.
I’m sure you’re looking for me to say I am a coach or a former professional player, but I am not. I don’t profess to know with great detail how a player should go about making a change to their swing/wind-up, but I do know what a high-level swing and high level mechanics look like, what inefficiencies to look for, and some adjustments a player could make to improve themselves.
It doesn’t bother me to be questioned, but I do get bothered when people dismiss me because I was never a coach or a high-level player. Much of my college education focused on the body, its movements, and the way it works. I took the steps to incorporate the biomechanics of baseball into my education.
As for Grossman, I do like his tools and I think the potential for a high-level swing is there, but I do think he has some mechanical issues to iron out. I know I sometimes sound overly analytical, but even small inefficiencies can be the difference between a homerun hitter and a doubles hitter. I’m not sure how I was hypocritical…I would be happy to hear your thoughts on his swing. It’s interesting how two people can look at the exact same swing and reach completely opposite conclusions.
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 19, 2008 11:23 PM EDT
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Who is Alex Eisenberg?
Alex recently graduated from James Madison University in Virginia. He writes for Hard Ball Times, Baseball Intellect, and Baseball Digest, using both sabermetric and video analysis to supplement his scouting reports.
Do I buy all of his analyses? No, but I don’t buy all of everyone’s analyses.
Viva Clemente!
by Roberto on
Oct 18, 2008 10:47 AM EDT
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I said "HYPERcritical", not "HYPOcritical".... but
I believe that not all great hitters have the same swing or even share a lot of sinilar characteristics, other than having a quick swing, a great mental approach and tremendous confidence, and a great knowledge of the strike zone (exceptions being the great Clemente and Vlad Guerrerro).
I also believe that if one has not played a great deal of baseball, preferably at the professional level, studying kineseology may give you somewhat of an idea as to how to hit, but it will NEVER account for actual playing experience.and having first hand knowledge of what it really takes to hit at the professional level.
It takes a helluva lot more than “good kiniseology”.
by thegunner on
Oct 20, 2008 1:00 AM EDT
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Gunner, cut the dude some slack!
At least the guy is trying to use real body-oriented techniques to break down and analyze a swing. I appreciated his breakdowns. It’s good to know he has actual study expertise in the area, and it not just being an avocation like for you and me.
And, I thought your comments about “you can’t really know it because you didn’t play the game” were way off base! More often than not, those who do play well have no idea what they are doing so well: it’s just natural to them. That’s why most good coaches were moderate players at best.
By the way, what are YOUR qualifications, Gunner? Are they “sinilar” to his?
by Groat2Maz2Strangeglove on
Oct 20, 2008 2:35 PM EDT
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my mistake
I misread the word.
No hitter has the same swing. And I agree that not all characteristics of great hitters are the same. However, there are some characteristics that you will see in most high-level hitters with few exceptions, for example letting the ball travel deep into your hitting zone. There are certain characteristics you look for and these characteristics are an indicator of one’s power potential, one’s ability to make contact, one’s ability to hit the ball in the air, etc.
Now, I’m not sure if by mental approach and knowledge of the strike zone you include superior hand-eye coordination and the ability to put the sweet part of the bat on the ball, the ability to recognize pitch types, and note trends of a pitcher that might give the hitter an advantage, but if it does I definitely agree with that and if you possess these qualities you likely will have a career professional baseball.
I have to completely disagree with the cliched you have to actually play the game at a high-level before knowing what you’re talking about line. That’s like saying you have to play the game at a professional level to know how to put together a winning team. And I know some damn good GMs that have less playing experience than me. Paul Nyman, one of the more influential teachers of modern-day mechanics, never played baseball at a high level.
I searched “Keith Law playing experience” to make sure he didn’t play high-level ball and here is your No. 1 result:
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2008/1/18/20201/0395
It’s clear you don’t trust people who have never played at a high level. If it was up to you, Theo Epstein would not be GM of the Red Sox and Andrew Friedman would not be GM of the Rays. To dismiss people because they didn’t play baseball at a high level is extremely short-sighted.
Now, don’t get me wrong now…playing at the professional level is a completely unique experience and something I cannot draw upon in my writing. But you don’t have to play at the professional level to know what constitutes a high level swing or high level mechanics nor do you have to play at the pro level to know what stats translate best to the next level. This isn’t rocket science.
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 22, 2008 2:03 AM EDT
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thanks, Charlie
You definitely do a terrific job with this site.
I have to ask now, what school did you go to?
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 22, 2008 2:07 AM EDT
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The Great Contradiction
It has become fashionable for today’s color men to talk about how long a supposedly great hitter can keep his bat in the strike zone - or some similar explanation.
Years ago, all people ever talked about was a “quick bat”, someone who could generate great quickness and speed while swinging the bat.
So my question is, how do you have a really “fast bat/quick swing” and still keep your bat in the strike zone for a long time?
by thegunner on
Oct 20, 2008 1:05 AM EDT
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I think the idea is that the bat is in the strike zone for a large percentage of its swing path, not for a long time in the temporal sense.
by WTM on
Oct 20, 2008 2:44 AM EDT
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Still Makes No Sense To Me!
I’m sure that is what the experts mean.
But it is just another example of overanalysis and making a difficult thing to do (hitting a baseball) even more complicated than it is.
by thegunner on
Oct 20, 2008 10:45 AM EDT
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re:
I don’t think great hitters keep their bat head in the hitting zone for a long time. Great hitters usually wait on the ball longer before committing to a pitch. And the point of contact is usually right before extension is achieved.
There are some hitters that keep the bat head in the hitting zone for a long time, and they usually have higher contact rates but low power production because they are achieving extension before the pitch actually arrives. The hands get ahead of the hip rotation, which is where much of the player’s power comes from.
From my experience, I don’t think many color guys have much of a clue as to what they’re talking about.
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 22, 2008 2:19 AM EDT
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NovaO...
I think that you are making sense in what you are saying about hitting, but I still think that you overanalyzed Grossman who looks to me like a nice little hitter, and a switchhitter at that (BIG PLUS!) who is fresh out of high school.
Still, in my opinion, hitting is WAY overanalyzed. There are a few basic principles that, when consistently applied, will produce good results ASSUMING that the player/prospect in question has the basic tools.
by thegunner on
Oct 22, 2008 4:52 PM EDT
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I sure hope somebody is analyzing Wesley Freeman’s swing.
by WTM on
Oct 22, 2008 7:31 PM EDT
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fair enough..
I actually don’t think I overanalyze hitting mechanics much…a lot of it basically boils down to…
1. does the hitter wait on the ball—keep the hands back and turn the hands and hips together on a firm front leg
2. do the hips stay closed
3. the swing length
4. the swing plane
I might be missing something, but the rest is mostly just the hitter’s natural ability, both physically and mentally.
I agree—Grossman is a nice little hitter, but my analysis boiled down to him simply needing to keep his hands back and wait on the ball a little longer and to watch out for his hips opening up too soon. The batting eye, pitch recognition, and his ability to square up on a ball among other things, we’ll find out more about when he has some playing experience under his belt.
www.baseball-intellect.com
by NovaO on
Oct 23, 2008 4:38 AM EDT
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Article on Grossman
From MLB.com, this seems to bear out Alex’s observations:
There was one thing in particular the Pirates had Grossman work on. In high school, Grossman used a high leg lift while hitting. At the time, scouts said it would have to be toned down. So far so good, with Grossman taking positive steps at instructs with his new mechanics.
“We tried to quiet and simplify the approach from both sides and he showed significant progress,” Stark said. “It was a very productive time down there.”
“They quieted me down,” Grossman echoed. “The load, the before-pitch actions — it really showed improvement and results towards the end of instructs.”
by WTM on
Oct 24, 2008 8:54 AM EDT
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