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Community Projection Review: Jason Bay

PLAYER POS. COMMUNITY ZiPS ACTUAL
Jason Bay LF .278/.368/.491 .265/.361/478 .286/.373/.522 (total)

This is one of those happy and rare occasions where a Pirate not only outperforms ZiPS, but outperforms our typically optimistic community projections as well. Blyleven Curve Ball pegged Bay at .285/.370/.525, which just nailed it; there's not much else to say. Nice work. Vlad was extremely close also. 

Bay's incredibly disappointing 2007 season was, as it turned out, just a blip. His OPSes the last five years now go 132, 150, 138, 93, and 133. One of those isn't like the others. Bay was also very consistent in 2008, posting at least an .821 OPS in every month and not missing a beat after being traded to the American League. Encouragingly (to his new employers, at least), Bay also stole 10 bases without being caught, suggesting he's healthy (although, to my eyes, he doesn't run as well as he used to). He may well have several years of excellent productivity left.

This isn't to say that Neal Huntington didn't trade Bay at the right time, however. The career of Bobby Higginson is still a cautionary tale. Higginson posted an 88 OPS+ in an injury-plagued age-28 season in 1999, just as Bay had an injury-plagued age-28 season in '07. Higginson then bounced back and hit well for two more years, after which the Tigers signed him to a four-year, $35 million contract. Higginson's skills promptly eroded and the contract turned out to be a colossal waste of money. 

Bay and his agent might have been amenable to signing another extension with Pittsburgh, but the chances are good that would have been a mess--maybe not a mess on a Higginson-type scale, but Higginson's and Bay's careers parallel eerily, and their skill sets are relatively similar. With the Pirates nowhere near ready to contend, Huntington had to trade Bay, and he was right to wait to let Bay re-establish himself at the beginning of the season, just as he was right to trade Bay once his resurgence was evident. 

Who Bay was traded for is another matter. Andy LaRoche was one of the key components of the deal, and I was very excited to get him at the time, but he was a spectacular flop in a two-month trial with the Bucs. Craig Hansen was horrible also, and Brandon Moss, who filled Bay's spot in the outfield, really wasn't a whole lot better. Moss and especially LaRoche both deserve lots of chances to get back on track and I hold out hope for LaRoche in particular, but if they don't turn it around this trade could quickly boil down to Bryan Morris, who's little more than an exciting live arm at this point.

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Bay Fan

huge Jason Bay fan since his Pirates days so i’m glad to see him doing well, good stuff

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by Sportvantage on Oct 7, 2008 9:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ach, so close.

Maybe I’ll get one next year.

by Vlad on Oct 8, 2008 9:30 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I didn't see the need...

With the Pirates nowhere near ready to contend, Huntington had to trade Bay

I’m really not so sure about this… bay might go the way of bobby higginson in the next couple years, but check the performances from his top ten comps from age 30 to the end of their careers… you’d be pleased enough with an edmonds, mitchell, klesko, justice and perhaps drew… daniels, hidalgo, higginson and perhaps jenkins were flops…

no, even a top-end performance from bay wasn’t going to make the pirates a championship team… but NH seemed a little anxious to move bay… the red sox HAD TO dump and replace manny, lest they miss the playoffs… the dodgers HAD TO make a move to compete with the d-backs… the pirates? they had no pressing need to make a deal here…

now, they DO have a need to rebuild the farm system, but that’s going to take a lot more time and players than jason bay can bring in return… any return for bay was only going to be a drop in the bucket… (of course, when half of the return is jeff wallace, pt. 2 and armando rios, pt. 2, that doesn’t help matters)…

by Captain Easychord on Oct 8, 2008 12:27 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think you'd be that pleased with Mitchell

He was quite productive at times when healthy (especially in 1994), but he didn’t manage even 100 games played in a single season from that point on.

To a certain extent, Bay’s comp pool is an artifact of the age-based Sim Score process, and its inability to include MLEs. It’s unusual for a top-flight hitter to have

When Charlie says that Huntington had to trade Bay, he means that Bay’s value was only likely to decline from here on out, as the amount of time left on his current contract decreased. Just look at the difference between what the Rangers got for Teixeira with a year-and-a-half left on his deal, and what the Braves got flipping him at the deadline last season.

Also, it’s way, way too early to write off any of the guys we got back in the Bay trade.

by Vlad on Oct 8, 2008 1:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Crap, premature post.

It’s somewhat unusual for a top-flight hitter like Bay to only reach the majors for keeps at 25, so a lot of the guys on his age-based sim score are going to be guys who broke in earlier but either missed time with injuries (Daniels, Justice, Drew) or were platoon starters (Jenkins, Klesko).

Nicholson is a weird comp, too, since his best seasons came against wartime competition, but the computer doesn’t know that.

by Vlad on Oct 8, 2008 1:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Charlie, what if you modified the community projections to remove the optimistic bias

For example, let’s say the community tends to add on .050 points of OPS because, well, that’s what fans do. By removing that, do the projections add anything that ZiPS or PECOTA misses? of course, there are a few ways to figure out how to remove this bias.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Oct 8, 2008 5:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s a very interesting question, and I may pursue it once we’re through with all these, but we only do this for 15 or so players each year. I don’t know if we have enough of a sample size here to say.

by Charlie on Oct 8, 2008 8:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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