Winter Meetings, Day 4: Bucs Take Donald Veal in Rule 5
by Charlie on Dec 11, 2008 11:30 AM EST
78 comments
Bumped for the Rule 5 draft at noon. I'll (hopefully) be on a plane when this goes down, but you can follow the draft here and here and in the comments. You may want to check out the post below this one, which is about an ESPN report that the Pirates are on the verge of signing Ramon Vazquez to a two-year contract.
The Pirates' trade of Ronny Paulino yesterday may turn out to be the biggest move they make in the Winter Meetings, but they'll almost certainly select at least one player in the major league portion of the Rule 5 draft today, and several players in the minor league portion.
The Post Gazette lists Diamondbacks pitcher Matt Torra and Angels infielder Hainley Statia as potential targets in the major league portion. Statia has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no business being on a major league roster. Torra could be selected merely because he's capable of starting, not because he's been especially good at it. A couple weeks ago, I endorsed the selection of Rays reliever Eduardo Morlan, but I was hardly the first blogger to do so, and Morlan could well be gone by the time the Pirates pick. Anyway, the Rule 5 draft is so unpredictable that if none of these three players are selected, I wouldn't be shocked.
Oh, and there's a huge trade: The Mets get J.J. Putz, outfielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green for Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Jason Vargas, Joe Smith and three minor leaguers: Mike Carp, Mikael Cleto and Ezequiel Carrera. The Indians get Smith and infielder Luis Valbuena and the Mariners get everybody else; also, the Indians send Franklin Guiterrez to the M's. There's almost too much here to process, but I like this for the Mariners, who upgrade their outfield defense dramatically while grabbing two of the Mets' small handful of prospects in Carp and Cleto. Putz had a worse-than-usual season in 2008, battling elbow problems; he's still a good reliever, but the Mets look like they're giving up quite a bit here.
Also, the Tigers did trade Matt Joyce, but they dealt him to Tampa for Edwin Jackson. Jackson still has some upside, but his apparent improvement in 2008 was mostly the product of the Rays' excellent defense; I like this move for Tampa.
UPD ATE: The P-G reports that the Bucs could lose Kyle Bloom, which would be a drag. Bloom is about a C+ grade prospect, but he's one of only a couple Bucs starting pitching prospects who are anywhere near the majors, and he's been pitching well for several months now. Short of some team making a completely random pick (which Bloom wouldn't be), there's really no excuse for a team like the Pirates, with a subpar bunch of players at the major league level and a relatively shallow farm system, losing a player in the Rule 5 draft. It's not a huge deal, and the Bucs could easily get Bloom back in March if he's selected, but I don't understand why he wasn't protected.
UPDATE II: The Pirates have taken Donald Veal, a former top starting pitching prospect from the Cubs. He's fallen on hard times, but he's a smart guy and he has decent stuff, so hopefully he'll be able to adjust as a reliever. That's off the top of my head; I'll do more research later. And now I really have to board my plane.
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Valbuena actually goes to the Tribe. We’re starting to like him already over at LGT.
by still ill on Dec 11, 2008 8:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
BA on the Pirates' Rule 5:
Lobby speculation is that it’s going to be either Lofgren or J.D. Martin. Link.
I love the hell out of Martin as a potential pick. He could be very, very good for us. Lofgren is more of a shot in the dark, given how bad his mechanics and mental approach are right now, but there’s upside there if we can fix him over the winter.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 8:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lofgren’s AFL performance is ultra-scary. It’s going to take a very sudden and radical turnaround for him to get through spring training, much less the regular season.
Martin had some very nice BB and K #s this year. He’s probably about ready for the majors anyway, so he’d have a good chance of surviving the year. They’ve gotta get somebody in that bullpen who can throw a strike.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Still rather take a look at him than draft a stiff like Statia, though.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cube has some “scouting report” for him that lists his power as 24. It’s probably bogus, but funny. Wouldn’t 19 be, like, negative power on the scouting scale?
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, man, that's funny.
Not sure what scale they’re using – they’ve got him over the max of 80 for both speed and contact, too.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s obviously faster than sound and can sometimes hit a pitch twice.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you hit a pitch twice and it doesn't go anywhere...
…then did it really happen?
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Martin doesn’t sound too bad, but I would hope Huntington wouldn’t pick an Indian just because he used to work for them.
Lofgren seems like he would be a terrible pick, IMHO.
by Charlie on Dec 11, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was half-expecting Martin to get a ML deal this offseason.
He’s a good option, right near the top of my list of minor league FAs.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ZiPS
In case anyone’s curious, ZiPS has Statia at .222/.261/.289 for 2009. That’s pretty impressive.
Torra’s projected for a 5.30 ERA, with 70 K, 42 BB, and 19 HR in 151 IP. Those numbers assume he’s pitching in AZ, so they’d be a little better for us.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 10:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jackson/Joyce
I never understood why people said Edwin Jackson had so much upside. His minor league numbers were bad/mediocre and as expected his major league numbers have been just bad. I’m with Charlie as for his improvements last year – I’m attributing them to Jason Bartlett and Evan Longoria. He walked almost as many batters as he struck out, which wasn’t many. Though scouts may say Jackson has good stuff, the stats (and batters!) clearly disagree. Nice job by Tampa of filling their right-field spot by dealing a low-value player from a position where they have lots of depth.
by wickethewok on Dec 11, 2008 10:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
He has good stuff.
He just doesn’t know how to use it. He’s a thrower, not a pitcher, and scouts are always going to imagine what he could be if he learned how to pitch.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 10:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
the rays are freaking loaded for years. could/should have been us…
by johnnycuff on Dec 11, 2008 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rays...
…are what we need to try to be. Friedman is a sharp, sharp cookie.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Less than an hour to go!
I’m such a dork for being excited about this.
Full list of eligible players (for the ML portion) here.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 11:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dejan is saying the Pirates are expected to lose a player in the draft. No name, and I wouldn’t necessarily bet it’s Bloom. It’s never who you think. Could be somebody like Eric Krebs.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 11:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aw, nuts.
On the blog, he says that it’s Bloom.
Maybe we’ll get lucky and he’ll bomb in ST.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not real happy about that. I’d have DFA’d Davidson and protected Bloom. Well, actually, I’d have dropped Denny Bautista in the river and protected Bloom. But the odds of him returning will probably be better than 50-50.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Davidson's still on the 40-man?
Wow, I had no idea. I thought we dropped him ages ago.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Back to San Diego. I’ve been in Northern Wisconsin the past few days. I was surprised how much I didn’t hate the winter there.
by Charlie on Dec 11, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me know the next time you're in PGH
Love to grab a beer, or somethin’.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool. I’m coming back to Morgantown in a few days.
by Charlie on Dec 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Donald Veal.
Fits with Huntington’s tendencies, at least.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we keep him, he fills a need.
Grabow isn’t a pure situational lefty, and I trust Burnett about as far as I can throw him.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And Bloom to the Tigers
They need relievers, but they seem to want to contend this year. He might not stick.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Charlie's fave Morlan...
…is a Milwaukee Brewer.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
With Veal
I guess we’ll learn something about Kerrigan. Veal will be a project.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wrapping around now...
Second pick coming?
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Aren’t both of their supposed targets still out there?
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stay tuned
NH said they’d take a lot of guys in the minor league phase. These will just be guys to fill out their dismal, Creechified class A rosters, but it’s still interesting to me.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Argh
BA’s site has gone kaput, as it’s prone to do.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm following picks...
…in this BTF thread.
MLB.com tracker still hasn’t updated, heh.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Minor league portions
First pick for us is P Andres Santos.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Stats
For Mr. Santos: Link.
21-year-old from the DSL, good ratios but overage.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some info from Scout.com
Big bonus baby ($300k in 2004), career delayed by some health issues with his growth plates. Lefty, mid-90s FB, good change, good control. Link.
Sounds like a nice, nice pick, if true.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Second round at AAA:
Catcher-turned-pitcher Rafael Quintero.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can't find any info on stuff.
You have to think that Huntington probably knows him pretty well, though, coming from Cleveland’s system.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
…it seems like he’s an infielder-turned-catcher-turned pitcher. That’s quite the path to success, there.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it wise...
…to pick DSL players, like Santos and Quintero in the AAA portion? They seem like good players, but I cannot imagine they are ready for AAA ball. How much play time do they have to get at that level anyway?
by scully0505 on Dec 11, 2008 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I mean it seems like a good idea, but I imagine it could hurt their development.
by scully0505 on Dec 11, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
AAA portion is something of a misnomer.
Those guys don’t have to stick in AAA. It’s just a portion of the draft where you can take eligible players assigned to a roster at any level under AAA. We can assign them to whatever level we want after they’re chosen.
Pre-draft, teams will stash all their eligible pseudo-prospects on the AAA roster to keep from getting poached.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Gerardo Esparza is the third pick. Pirates pass in AA portion.
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
by MBandi on Dec 11, 2008 12:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just in case:
Stats for Mr. Esparza. Righty SP from the VSL, stats are pretty good but not as PlayStation as the last two picks.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any idea whether the Pirates lost anybody in the minor league phase?
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 12:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t hear anyone, but I might have missed one.
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
by MBandi on Dec 11, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But given Creech's work, not bloody likely.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Confirmed
We lost nobody in either half of the minor league portion.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Man,that speaks volumes. I don’t recall that happening before. They usually lose 2-3 guys, players like Maiko Loyola who aren’t going anywhere. (Of course, DL, being DL, did lose two guys this way who went on to reach the majors.) The minor league phase mainly lets teams fill holes in their rosters by grabbing players who aren’t really valued in other systems. Basically, it’s a way of swapping organizational players around. It shows just how poor the overall talent level is in the system.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We take nobody in the AA portion.
Only one choice in the whole round. :P
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 12:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I thought they’d take more guys than that. I also thought they’d take some guys, especially pitchers, to shore up the class A teams. These guys figure to go to Bradenton or, maybe, State College. They actually seem to be using the minor league phase to try to unearth real prospects. Most teams just use it to stock their minor league teams. Not that I have a problem with it.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 1:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, no kidding.
I could see any of these three turning into ML players. And Santos seems like a real sleeper.
Gayo must’ve been busy drawing up wish lists.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They’ve been doing this for a while, digging around for Latin players who flopped with other orgs. Guys like Romulo! and Uviedo. It’s obviously a big focus for Gayo, apart from the “normal” scouting. I’m really hoping the fact that he hasn’t produced any serious Latin prospects so far (not counting the guys he signed this year, who are too new to say anything about) is due to DL’s severe budget restrictions. I’m seeing a lot of things that seem good, like the strong focus on Latin countries outside of the DR and Venezuela. Dejan even reported he’s looking for a scout in Ecuador. I had no idea anybody there played baseball.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't realize that there was a minor league phase
to the Rule V draft. Can someone explain how eligibility is determined for this portion of the draft?
by WestCoastBuc on Dec 11, 2008 1:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Can’t say I’ve ever really understood it. Players become eligible at the same time as in the major league phase. They’re eligible in the AAA portion as long as they’re not on the AAA roster. That’s where teams will put players who aren’t on the 40-man but whom they’d like to hang onto anyway. There must be a limit, or teams would just put all their players on the AAA roster, but I don’t know what it is.
I have no idea how the AA portion works. I guess players are eligible to be taken if they’re not on the AA roster. There’s seldom much activity in that portion, anyway.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The limit is the same in-season limit for a AAA active roster.
Wilbur’s right about AA. The only benefit to taking a guy there instead of the AAA portion is that the $$ price to make the selection is lower.
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think that veal is going to be a steal for you guys
he was once ranked as the #2 prospect for the cubs, so you guys better keep him around this year and he may be a future starter for you guys down the road
everything Rays,Marlins,Twins and Reds
by RaysOfHope on Dec 11, 2008 1:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Like the Veal pick
I just hope we can find a way to keep him long enough to give him a chance to iron out his control issues.
by Chad Bahamas on Dec 11, 2008 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nick Punto
signs a 2 year deal with Twins to be there starting shortstop. Guess that’s one team that is dropping the Jack Wilson negotiations.
by northsidenotch on Dec 11, 2008 3:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting note
Dejan has posted an explanation of how the minor league Rule 5 picks came about. Apparently it wasn’t Gayo, and it is very unusual to take players still in the summer leagues.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 6:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's pretty sweet.
Wonder whether Fox would be willing to talk about it?
by Vlad on Dec 11, 2008 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d sure like to get an idea how he’s translating those numbers. Some aspects are easy to interpret—16- to 18-yr-olds seldom have much power, for instance—while others aren’t. Like, in the VSL, walk totals are extremely high. I’ve always wondered why.
by WTM on Dec 11, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That has to be down to the VSL umpires, doesn't it?
There used to be noticeable differences in refereeing throughout the soccer world. The regional interpretations of the rules were passed down through generations like local customs. Globalisation through TV lead to FIFA directives that changed all that.
According to Dejan’s recent reports, Caribbean baseball is still pretty insular. Anyone know if VSL players continue to be more patient when they reach the majors?
by RDV across the sea on Dec 12, 2008 9:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’d be an interesting point to research. It occurred to me the difference could be cultural or traditional. The saying in the DR has long been that you can’t “walk off the island.” Venezuela is a much more affluent country than the DR, so the sense of desperation to get a pro contract may not be as acute. Some sociologist ought to study it.
by WTM on Dec 13, 2008 11:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not sociologists.
We need a baseball stats guru called Fox.
Wow. We could be on to a winner!
by RDV across the sea on Dec 15, 2008 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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