Jack Wilson Says a Bunch of Incoherent Stuff
by Charlie Wilmoth on Dec 19, 2008 3:44 AM EST
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Print"I always said I wanted to honor my contract and, in the negotiations we had for that, the organization [read: Dave Littlefield] had talked about building a team," Wilson said. "I wanted to make sure that, if I was giving up a couple years of free agency, I had a chance of competing. That's one of the main things that went into my signing that piece of paper, that we'd compete. Since I signed that, that hasn't happened. We've lost key players who were going to be part of that team they were talking about. They are now gone"...
He mentioned the mantra of accountability cited so often by the new management headed by team president Frank Coonelly and general manager Neal Huntington.
"The biggest thing stressed over the past year was accountability," Wilson said. "That includes everybody in the organization, as far as having accountability for themselves and in wanting to win. It's not just the players."
So... it's Neal Huntington's fault that Jack Wilson believed Dave Littlefield could assemble a competitive team. That's accountability!
...Or maybe he's talking about the ownership? In which case it's Robert Nutting's fault that Jack Wilson believed Kevin McClatchy could assemble a competitive team? Either way, I'm confused.
"Well, people still talk about Jeromy Burnitz and Joe Randa," Wilson said... "They both retired right after they were with us. They just wanted to play one more year. Look, we've got to do whatever we have to do to try to find a way to compete. I know that there are 25 players right now who would love to compete at this level for the Pittsburgh Pirates. There are eight core players who are dying to compete. There are thousands and thousands of fans of the Pittsburgh Pirates who are dying to compete. And we all need to be accountable for that."
Does anyone here translate Jackwilsonese into plain English? I don't speak the language, but I'm tempted to translate all this as "WHY HAVENT U TRADED ME YET CMON."
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Players know how to play.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they know how to build a team. A lot of the time, it’s like asking a tree about forestry.
On one level, I feel for Jack, but on another, he’s the one who signed his deal here. He went into this with his eyes open.
I think it’s very hard for a veteran on a rebuliding club to give stock answers again and again but someone should have told him that this, if anything, decreases his trade value.
I understand the frustration. Your interests will not always be the same as your employers, in any job. You should have the right to voice displeasure to them directly but doing so in the press doesn’t usually help anyone but the press itself.
by OlStubbleBeard on Dec 19, 2008 11:43 AM EST reply actions
I agree with this
I’ve never disliked Jack, but (wholly unrelated) I’ve never gotten the impression he’s the sharpest pencil in the box. He says dumb things sometimes. In this instance, he’s doing a little venting. No biggie.
Personally, I only care what players do on the field. I fully expect that, if I got to know any of them personally, more than a few would turn out to be odious a-holes (e.g., Barry Bonds, Brian Giles).
I don’t expect Jack to dog it in 09 if he’s still on the team. So let him say what he wants.
Wilson and Pirates expectations
When the Pirates and Wilson agreed to his current contract, what did each really expect?Wilson has been an above average defender and a mediocre to average hitter. The Pirates have been a low budget team that has poor talent evaluation and trades their higher paid productive players. Did either side expect anything else? Did the Pirates expect Wilson to develop power and drive in 120 runs? Did Wilson expect the PIrates to spend $100 mil on payroll? Now that the too sides are headed for a divorce, it seems odd that either side has the right to be disappointed.
Wilson Translation
I don’t find Wilson incoherent all. What he is saying is that this accountability stuff is all talk, and that Team Coonington is failing to “walk the talk”, It’s that simple. More later on the Pirate problems.
Yes, Simple!
Talking about being accountable is one thing. Actually being accountable is another. This is what Jack Wilson is questioning.
The Pirates think that they were being accountable last year by sending Paulino and Gorzelanny to AAA. But what did this really accomplish? Meanwhile, Osoria, Salas, Bautista and a much larger cast of experiments were imploding in Pittsburgh.
They held Andrews accountable, as they should have, but they really only made him the scapegoat.
And they are collecting strong-armed pitchers who have no idea where the ball is going. But maybe Kerrigan will straighten them all out.
Vlad, how long did you believe in Dave Littlefield after he was hired before you realized that maybe he was a big part of the problem.
I believe in giving Huntington the benefit of the doubt - but I don’t plan to do so for six years!
That's a good question
I think the answer is about three years. Huntington took over a year ago, and obviously it’s too soon to judge him as a GM. But if by the end of 2010 the team still looks like it has as little of a future as it did during Littlefield’s tenure, I think it’s time to cut bait.
Yes, three years sounds like a long time, but how quickly is it possible to turn around a 70-win team with no minor league talent?
Not An Easy Task
But there have to be major significant moves that really indicate that a turnaround is on the way.
I have seen very little to indicate that this is happening.
Major, significant moves:
Trading Bay and Nady for prospects.
Basically doubling our budget for amateur talent, and spending accordingly.
On the trib board, it took about six years
For the Littlefield acolytes to finally see the light. Many of the Huntington defenses I see now are eerily reminiscent of what people said to defend Littlefield then.
I’m neither a fan nor a basher of NH. I don’t think he’s had the fullness of time to earn either viewpoint yet. I just wonder why so many fans are so invested in defending his every move. People who would have cheered lustily if Littlefield’s house caught fire turned on a dime and went into snarling attack mode against anyone who thought, maybe, just maybe, the Bay trade wasn’t pure perfection.
This just simply isn't true.
People defend Huntington because he is doing a lot of good things…things that Littlefield never, ever did…things that successful, mid-to-small market teams have been doing for a while now.
exactly what "simply isn't true"
kindly be specific
Can I butt in?
What, exactly, is “snarling attack mode”?
If you'd been on the T rib forum
you’d know what I mean.
That people are invested in defending his every move.
If people defend his moves, it’s because they like them. Not because they’re a big pack of brainwashed moonies.
brainwashed moonies
is a concept you introduced, not me
so the "brainwashed" part is okay
It’s just the lower case M that triggers your…er, their litigation? Good to know.
Well, look at it this way.
My theory is that most people here don’t criticize Huntington’s moves because they like them.
You evidently don’t agree with that. As such, I was providing the most plausible alternate hypothesis I could come up with, since your post was kind of short on details. If you actually think that we’re all alien pod people, or something even less plausible than mass brainwashing, then I’m sorry for having put words in your mouth.
you might want to look up the word "plausible"
Because you’re not even close
I bailed on him for keeps right after the Ramirez trade.
So somewhere between 1.5 and two years. With both positive and negative signs at times before that.
I still don’t understand your point about accountability. The team made significant positive strides in building from within, and while some trades look better than others at this point, the intent and motivation behind all of them was sound (and in any event we won’t know for sure about guys like LaRoche for at least another year, so how do you “account” for that with anything other than an incomplete?).
Jack's frustration is boiling over
I agree with shayborg. I think Jack is disappointed that he may have to be on this losing (laughing stock) team for several more years. Knopwing this and also having nothing done during the offseason by management is proof that the next year will be even worse than last year. Jack is an average player, but let’s face it, many average players have been a hero in a playoff with a good team around him. Jack’s chances of this will most likely never happen now, at least, until he leaves the burgh and then who will want him as a starter. I feel his pain.
Gunner
You demanded trades last season. “Make moves!” was the cry we heard incessantly from you on BucsDugout.
Trades were made. Big money was spent on the June draft. The team has a new facility in the Dominican Republic and seems to be finally serious about procuring talent from Latin America.
We all hope for another big commitment from the Nuttings for the 2009 draft to keep the farm system rebuilding process on track to producing big dividends in a few years. We all hope for big returns on the commitment to Latin America in a few years as well.
The team will move Jack Wilson if Huntington thinks the return is worthy of his caliber. Huntington just can’t pull a trade with another team out of his arse.
What “major significant moves” still need to be made in your mind for the “turnaround” to start?
You'ns might be overanalyzing this
Jack isn’t a GM, nor does he want to be. Jack is an athlete, and a fairly conscientious one if his press clippings and community work can be believed. Jack is ca. 30 yrs old. Jack genuinely likes Pittsburgh; he’s been lionized here, arguably (most of you would say it is beyond arguable) beyond his actual merit. (He’s still my favorite Pirate.) But he realizes that the Bucs, at the ML level, aren’t too swell right now. As a conscientious athlete, he wants to be part of a winner. He’s in the same place Bay was last year, except he knows LAD aren’t going to coordinate a 3-team trade with prospects to land him at the deadline.
He realizes he’s going to be on a shitty team for the 9th consecutive year. He thinks that sucks. He doesn’t care about your 5-year plans. He’ll be 35 in 5 years. Dk gave him a forum to air his grievances, and it comes at no cost to him. So he did. That’s all. Evaluating his Gm acumen is beyond pointless. Let it go and hope he’s healthy on opening day.
Hey Charlie
I’m having a problem posting “replies” to my many critics. What’s up!
Jacko Redux
Pirates try to end losing ways
By Rick Hummel
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
03/24/2008
Drawing out his words, the veteran Wilson, who has been on seven of the previous 15 losing clubs, said, “You … win … more … than … you … lose. That’s the only way to do it.”
…But, said Wilson, “If you go into the season, and you don’t believe you can compete, you ought to just take off your spikes, go home and play men’s soccer or something.”…
“I believe every year we’re better than the year before,” Wilson said. “I believe it every year.”
>I guess this year he does not feel this way<
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/9CC937FEAD4D63F486257416000F92D7?OpenDocument
We know someone that WILL be in Pittsburgh for a few years.
ESPN.com reporting Ryan Doumit signing for 3 years…terms not announced yet.
He Needs To Be Traded
I hope that it is a good contract that will make him easily tradeable. Doumit will never play on a winner in Pittsburgh.
No
Because Pittsburgh won’t have a winner for a very, very long time.
I guess injuries could do something as well
Just wondering...
when Jack is talking about the eight core guys that are dying to compete, who is he actually talking about. I hope he doesn’t see him and Freddy as core players to the Pirates.
So
the other 17 others, I guess, have no interest in competing?
I like Jack and all, but he’s digging himself into a hole in my book.
by northsidenotch on Dec 22, 2008 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
i think he means
whichever 8 make up the starting lineup besides him. he means that there have to be 8 other players the pirates can get that have the desire to compete. the issue seems to be that they don’t all have the combined talent to do so.
So he's blaming the pitching
That sonofabitch.
Who cares!
Jack is getting paid to play and he wants to win. Who doesnt. Maybe this is his T.O. moment of trying to get traded. He wants out because he sees no winning in the future – and he is right. He wont be part of winner in Pittsburgh. He should have negotiated a better “out” clause in his contract….oh wait, I am sure he was just happy to get that kind of contract. You can’t bite the hand that feeds you when it is feeding you better than anyone else would have. Shut up and play or be a man and demand a trade.
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