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Why the Pirates Didn't Do What Oakland Did

If you haven't yet read this brilliant article, please do so right now. Here's the money quote, and it's a big one:

It was tempting, all concerned acknowledge, to travel the Oakland route right away [by trading veterans for prospects].

"We're not going to have the system be as deep as we need it to be as quickly as we want. We know that," Coonelly said. "If we moved Snell or Gorzelanny or Capps, the players people wanted in the types of deals we wanted to make, we could accelerate that process. That's a fact. And that would not be the most illogical step for this team to take."

But ...

"We decided against it because, one, it is not financially necessary to do so. Two, we think we can infuse talent to the group we have even as we continually look for right trades that can bring prospects. Three, we want to give this team a chance to contend, to win. We think these players and our fans deserve it."

This line of reasoning probably won't be unpopular with some fans but, if we can take this stuff at face value, it's pretty amazing. Coonelly's admitting he delayed the organization's chances of acquiring the talent it needs to contend in the future because he wants to have his cake and eat it too - he wants to win with this team while simultaneously building the future.

To me, there are a bunch of good excuses for not trading Snell or Gorzelanny, starting with the one that says that at this point, they're not far enough along in their careers and in their service-time clocks that they're going to bring back talent that's more valuable to the Pirates in the long term than Snell and Gorzelanny themselves are. But the excuse that Coonelly's offering here is, in my mind, not a valid one, and it requires quite a lot of cheek to believe you can both build around the players you have and build for the future, especially when someone as smart as Billy Beane spent the winter more or less admitting he could only do one.

Yes, there's a lot more to this issue (Oakland plays in a tougher league, had a better group of veterans to deal, and so on), but still, Coonelly's comments, taken at face value, are very interesting and audacious and, if I may say so, kind of unfortunate.

This article - which is about what would happen if, by some miracle, the Pirates were to contend in 2008 - is a very complex one. Part of that is because it's written with about a hundred times the care that most mainstream media articles are, but I worry that another part of that is that this ownership group still hasn't made up its mind about what it wants the Pirates to be. In a shifting market, some second-guessing is inevitable, and of course not all the comments that Bob Nutting, Neal Huntington and Coonelly make in the papers can be taken at face value, but this is still looks like a portrait of a bunch of guys who can't make up their minds.

First they're looking to trade players like Jason Bay in the offseason. Then they're realizing they can't get the players they want in return. Then they're repeating the (rather weird, in my opinion) claim that last year's team underachieved in some significant way. Then they're claiming that they'd add players if they started winning. Then they're saying that even if they started winning, they wouldn't break from the plan (which presumably involves building through the farm system - so how would they add significant players if they started winning, given that prospects are how you get those players?).

I realize that running a baseball team is a complex business, and that the world is full of shades of gray. I also know that it's not uncommon for new GMs of moribund franchises to wait awhile before really going crazy with trades. But this article begins to seem downright ominous when you keep in mind that Huntington and Coonelly did almost nothing of consequence this winter.

The Pirates have had 15 consecutive losing seasons. They have little talent in the majors and a below-average farm system. In defense of the Pirates' management, they were probably asked a ton of questions for this article about a scenario (winning in 2008) that is highly unlikely to ever happen. But still, I'd like them to show me that they know that desperate times call for desperate measures. Forget all the hemming and hawing, and make a bold move or three.

 

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when you have a owner

That shouldnt really be a owner the profits from 2006 went to ski resort not for improving a team we trade away a talnted of er for a over the hill starter 2 yrs ago we signed joe randa tthese knucleheads kept saying sanchez wasnt the starter even tho he was leading the league in hitting it will never improve until people stop goin to see fireworks after the game and expect to see fireworks during the game just a thought

by wildrex on Mar 30, 2008 8:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Please learn to use punctuation.

How many sentences are supposed to be in this post? It's very difficult to respond to your post when we can't actually read what you write.

by Willton on Mar 30, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing is...

...the Pirates did little to improve the team so that it might surpass the McClatchy line in 2008. The best feasible outcome for the season has them finishing under .500 once again. Rebuilding, on the other hand, would require tolerating a 45-60 win season. For an organization obsessed with the bottom line, that would look like a short-term financial disaster.

In short, the organization is 'driving for 75' once more.

Steve Z

by steve_z on Mar 30, 2008 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't know

I agree, Charlie, that a lot of the talk is obviously contradictory and frustrating, but I don't think we will have too much to worry about once they start playing ball. The "tough decisions" for management will come if the Bucs are five to ten games over .500 a month or two into the season.

Gorzo and Snell can come out firing, Maholm and Duke can be solid, Bay can return to form and LaRoche can start fast for once--we still won't be in first place in June.

If I am wrong, and the Bucs have two winning months, then it may be scary. Management may believe the team could sustain that through the whole season. Who know what they would do in that situation, maybe even trade one of our big three prospects?

The point: the start that would give management the opportunity to abandon the rebuilding plan is extremely unlikely.

by DITO on Mar 30, 2008 12:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep.

I agree, Charlie, that a lot of the talk is obviously contradictory and frustrating, but I don't think we will have too much to worry about once they start playing ball.

Thank goodness for small favors?

by Charlie Wilmoth on Mar 30, 2008 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope there are tough decisions

One of the things that becomes clear from the article is that the Pirates were willing to trade Bay or Nady in a deal that included Gio Gonzalez., the key player in the trade for Nick Swisher. The White Sox wanted no part of that.

Another thing that the article makes clear is the minor league problem is the paucity of prospects ready for A+ and AA (especially pitchers). There's some promise at the lower levels, and the Pirates have more legit prospects in AAA than most teams.

Huntington is clearly gambling that he can get a better deal in June than he could in January. We'll see.

What would lead to "tough decisions" would be sustained good pitching. Again we'll see.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Mar 30, 2008 12:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Waiting might work

I agree that you can't have it both ways, but I also wonder if 29 other GM's knew Huntington wanted to rebuild A's-style and thought they could rob him blind.
I think the only thing that could hurt the Pirates more than keeping Bay, Nady and Wilson right now is dealing them for mediocre returns. As we all know, there's not much else coming to play or trade. If the Bucs don't get decent return for the few players they do have, then everything will come through the draft and it will take much longer.
If it's August and the Pirates are struggling and the current roster is in place, I'll agree with you. But right now I'm willing to give them a few months to see what happens.

by TPenaRules on Mar 30, 2008 5:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed - It sometimes seems that the rest of MLB treats the Pirates as chumps, always looking for a steal, never willing to give fair value or even to take a slight gamble. Granted Bay is a couple of years older than Swisher and is coming off an injury; it just seems to me (maybe a biased Buc loving view) that Bay has a better upside, more so considering he's going to the hitter's league.

by meandterry on Mar 31, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't necessarily disagree with that in theory,

but if we are 32-29, first or second in the divison, Bay has 12 HRs, Nady 10 HRs, Jack hitting .300/.350/whatever, it sounds like he is entertaining the idea of putting the rebuilding project on hold and sticking with those guys, or even trade for a major-league player, and I'm not a fan of that idea.

We have a little bit of talent, enough to win in spurts. One of those could come at the beginning of the season, but only perfect health and career years from four or five key players would allow us to sustain winning over the whole season. What are the odds of that actually happening?

by DITO on Mar 31, 2008 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

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