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Cubs 4, Pirates 3

This game was a bunch drearier than the score makes it seem, so I don't care to spend much time wringing my hands about it, but I do want to point out an interesting little item in the Post-Gazette:

An American League scout watching one of Dumatrait's first two starts, using a detailed grading system, came up with an overall score that ranked Dumatrait as "a No. 2 or 3 starter." Such an assessment is not reached lightly, either, as scouts often are required to explain unusual evaluations to their general managers

See, this is why both stats and scouting are important. The scouts need the stat people to point out that, hey, Dumatrait allowed seven walks today so maybe you should re-think that evaluation before my lung collapses from laughing too hard, just as the stat people need the scouts to point out that maybe taking Ricky Romero with the sixth pick in the draft isn't such a good idea. It's obvious, really.

By the way, the same article is about whether it might be a good idea to move the PIrates back into the NL East. Count me out.

In the article, author Dejan Kovacevic also claims that "Culturally, Pittsburgh belongs to the Midwest as much as it belongs to Malawi." I couldn't disagree more. There's certainly a large cultural difference between Pittsburgh and, say, St. Louis, but it's probably no larger than the cultural difference between Pittsburgh and Miami, Atlanta or New York. And if I had to name large cities similar to Pittsburgh, I'd probably pick Cleveland, Buffalo and maybe Detroit. (Pittsburgh's better, but they're still similar.) Cleveland and Detroit are Midwestern cities, and I'd say the residents of Buffalo also have a pretty Midwestern outlook. Pittsburgh doesn't fall neatly into any broad geographic region, it's true, but it has most in common with the rust-belt post-industrial cities on or near the Great Lakes. Many of these are Midwestern cities, so I'm not really sure what the Post-Gazette is getting at here. Kovacevic lives in Pittsburgh and certainly travels more than I do, but I've been to Cleveland, Detroit and Buffalo many times each and once each within the last year, and the similarities between those cities and Pittsburgh have always seemed so obvious to me as to be almost self-evident.

In addition, a move to the East would make the NL Central less competitive. NL East champs from 2003 to 2007 won an average of 94.6 games, while NL Central champs in the same period won an average of 92.2 games. The article notes that the average payroll of the non-Pirates teams in the Central  is currently higher than that of the East, but that doesn't mean much -- any average payroll figure in the East will be skewed by the Marlins' absurdly low payroll. Meanwhile, the Mets have the third-highest payroll in baseball, the Phillies always rank right up there, and the Braves have a spectacular player development system.

Update: I just want to be ultra-clear here, lest someone interpret my comments two paragraphs above as somehow insulting to Pittsburgh, which to me growing up in Wheeling was a wonderful place that was like London and Tokyo and New York all rolled into one. Really, the issue here is that it's just about impossible to unproblematically break the country into three geographic regions. Yes, Pittsburgh has little in common with some "Midwestern" parts of the country, but it has much in common with some Midwestern parts like Cleveland. Cleveland has little in common with Kansas City, but teams in those cities play in the same division -- should they be in different divisions? I'm fine with them sticking where they are, and short of breaking teams into three-team divisions, I think the categorization of Pittsburgh and Cleveland into the Central divisions is fine and gets more right than wrong.

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What the MLB needs to do

is put together a division known only as “Perennial Losers”.
In it, they toss Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Washington & Baltimore.
Maybe even Florida or Texas.

That could make for an exciting division…

The Utah Jazz
A disillusioned Pirates fan in Utah...

by UtesFan89 on May 18, 2008 6:30 PM EDT   0 recs

If not exciting

at least one where those teams can be considered “in competition” as the season winds down.

The Utah Jazz
A disillusioned Pirates fan in Utah...

by UtesFan89 on May 18, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think European soccer does this… it’s called “second division.”

by Charlie on May 18, 2008 6:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Go East, young man

I’d like to see them back in the east, but I agree that Dejan is wrong. Chicago is Pittsburgh, only enormous and flat. They substituted a huge lake for three rivers, and they have great public transportation, but the people are pretty much the same. I’ve lived in San Francisco, Atlanta, Chicago, and D.C., and I’ve worked extended assignments on the road in many other cities, but Chicago is the only one where I felt right at home.

by sisyphus on May 19, 2008 7:56 AM EDT   0 recs

East vs. Midwest

I grew up in Pittsburgh, and I lived in St. Louis for 10 years before moving recently to the DC area. I would say there is NOT a significant difference between Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Much bigger difference between Pittsburgh and DC, to be quite honest.

I think Easterners consider Pittsburgh a midwest city (I know a lot of Philadelphians do). Personally, I would rather see the team play in the eastern division, but if we’re talking about regional similarities, I think the midwest is really the right geography.

by mak_DC on May 19, 2008 8:24 AM EDT   0 recs

Mak - DC is not really an eastern city. It’s more of a southern city, with a generic bureaucratic culture imposed over it.
Pittsburgh is not quite midwest, not quite east; it’s in its own special universe. The terrain - the hills and twisting gullies—differentiate it from midwest cities, which tend to be flat and are organized around structured street grids. This really makes a large difference in many ways. On the other hand, obviously, no ocean. I live on the east coast and tend to see the physical and cultural similarities of Pittsburgh to here, especially with places like Baltimore and Brooklyn.
That said, I’d really rather not be in the same division as the Mets or the Braves.

by brooklynpirate on May 19, 2008 8:58 AM EDT   0 recs

Geographically you’re probably right. Would you say, though, that the average Pittsburgher is more like someone from Philly or someone from St. Louis?

I’d say St. Louis, but I may be wrong.

by mak_DC on May 19, 2008 12:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As you all probably know

I’m a strong advocate of balanced divisions. That means either we have to kick an NL team back to the AL or expand by two. (And just to get over this hump right now, I think with the talent pools in places like Japan developing so rapidly, there’s no reason the entire world can’t support 32 major-league baseball teams. They did pretty well for decades with 16 teams stocking their rosters from, really, at the very most 20 million white Americans.)

I’d think the political wrangling and fallout would be most minimized (path of least resistance) by going the expansion route. So, what two cities in North America could best handle an MLB team? Las Vegas seems a slam dunk. Buffalo’s out (too close to Toronto—remember, both these teams would go to the AL), so are Portland and Orlando and probably the Tideland area of Virginia, for the same reason. So: No West Coast, no East Coast, no Rocky Mountains, probably no Midwest. The two cities that seem most likely candidates (without going into ownership groups etc.) I think would be Nashville and New Orleans, and while I can see some humanitarian reasons for putting a team there, N.O. still has a lot of work to do.

So let’s say Vegas and Nashville.

Now, with 16 teams in each league, the obvious way to divide them is into four-team divisions. This looks like it would eliminate the wild cards, and baseball just freakin’ loves the wild cards, for reasons that escape me. Much as I’d be loathe to see it, to get this done politically might require adding a wild-card round to the playoffs (six teams make it from each league), but that’s outside what I’m trying to figure out here, which is, how would you align your leagues? Or would you still have two leagues? Why couldn’t you have four leagues, with two divisions each, and the teams play the majority of those games within those leagues? Just askin’.

Anyway, here we go:
NL East: Pirates, Mets, Phillies, Reds
NL South: Marlins, Braves, Nats, Astros
NL West: Dodgers, Padres, Giants, Diamondbacks
NL Central: Brewers, Cubs, Cards, Rockies
AL East: Yanks, Red Sox, Orioles, Jays
AL South: Rays, Nashville, Rangers, Royals
AL Central: Tigers, Indians, White Sox, Twins
AL West: Angels, Mariners, A’s, Vegas

This is, of course, if you want to maintain the integrity of the NL and AL, which I don’t really see a whole lot of logic in doing, but it would mean they’d have to settle the DH issue once and for all and … well, we know how that would go.

Anway, in a four-leagues alignment, simply pair up the two Easts, two Centrals etc. You’d play each team in your division 22 times (3X22=66), each team in the other division 12 times (4X12=48) and in rotation each team in one other league six times (8X6=48). Voila. 162 games.

There’d be a lot of teams fans wouldn’t see for three-year stretches at a time, and MLB might not like that, but really, to get back to Charlie’s point, what does Pittsburgh really have in common with, for Charlie’s instance, San Diego, or Miami? Nothing as far as I can tell, they’re artificially joined. So why should it be any big deal if the Padres come to town only once every three years?

One of the things that strikes me in reading baseball history is how, back in the 16-team days, teams would play 22 games a year against others in their league, and this familiarity bred contempt. The fans and players in each city grew very familiar with their opponents, and learned to hate them, in a good fanly way, because they saw them so often. That’s been lost, I think, and with my four-league plan I’m bringing it back.

You’re welcome.

by bucdaddy on May 19, 2008 10:55 AM EDT   0 recs

Familiarity

I am a huge proponent of the unbalanced schedule. It makes divisions meaningful (if you play everybody the same amount of times, what’s the point of divisions?) and it breeds that contempt you talked about. I loved, for instance, how many times the Pens played the Rangers, Flyers, and Devils this year, especially down the stretch. And now, they’re going to go back to a balanced schedule in the NHL because, I suppose, Los Angeles and Vancouver are bitching they don’t get to see Sidney Crosby too often. :rollseyes:

by matskralc on May 19, 2008 4:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i completely disagree about the talent level. i think the talent of players available to major league teams is already too thin, particularly pitchers. look at how many mediocrities already have jobs. the average major league team has maybe 2-3 excellent pitchers, 2-3 good but not great ones and then fills out their staff with a hodgepodge of mediocre or worse pitchers. come on, the nl payroll champion mets are considering starting tony armas (yes, that tony armas) in the near future. more teams means less talent, more retreads and an overall lowering of the caliber of baseball that’s played.

i do agree with you about the values of divisional play. the best games the steelers play every year are usually the late season games against division rivals. i love that i get to say mean things about ray lewis in 1/8 of the steelers regular season games. really i say them more often than that but they at least get to be relevant in those weeks. i just can’t get as excited about the pirates current division rivals. maybe it’s due to the era i started watching baseball (muck the fets!) but a three game series against the astros just doesn’t seem to have the same effect on me that one against the phillies or mets does.

by johnnycuff on May 19, 2008 4:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not that simple

The talent pool from which talent is drawn is way larger than it’s ever been, and has probably expanded faster than the number of MLB teams. 60 years ago, the population from which MLB players were drawn consisted of “poor, white, first-, second-, third-generation immigrant-Americans”. In those 60 years, the number of MLB teams has slightly-less-than-doubled. The population of the United States alone has increased almost as much, [i]and[/i] we aren’t limiting ourselves to whites-only anymore. Add in the millions of folks in Latin America to draw from and a pipeline from Asia we are beginning to tap into, and the notion that talent has “diluted” becomes fairly ridiculous.

by matskralc on May 19, 2008 8:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Disagree somewhat

Other sports have grown too, and in a sense, we’re a sporting nation. Specifically, the NBA, and soccer have siphoned off talent as fast as the pool has grown. When I talk about soccer, I don’t mean MLS, but soccer has an activity that dominates teenagers years. And I think your point assumes that baseball is as popular as ever. The raw numbers say yes, but the percentage of athletes has probably remained fairly level, perhaps even fallen.

1951
MLB—16 teams, now less than doubled to 30 teams, fewer minor leagues.

1951
NFL—12 teams, now nearly tripled to 32 teams

1961
NBA—8 teams, now nearly quadrupled to 30 teams

I picked those years because it was after the color line had been broken, and it wasn’t until about 1960 that the NBA had established itself.

Add in sports like lacrosse, and other niche sports that can dominate important (teenage) growth years, and the talent pool hasn’t exploded the way you think.

*I have no other numbers to back my claims, I’m using observational logic, which could be BS, but sounds, uh, logical. Also, obviously I’m speaking of the US here, not Japan or Latin America.

by azibuck on May 20, 2008 9:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That's true

But you’re talking about the States. They’re still baseball fanatics in Latin America and the Far East, and that’s where I think the gains are to be made.

by bucdaddy on May 20, 2008 10:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

yes but

just because the talent exists there doesn’t mean it’s inevitably going to come here. latin america seems to be more or less a direct line to mlb but asian players are a much different story, the japanese leagues (where the most talented players tend to come from) in particular. there is some movement from japan to the u.s. but it’s more of a trickle than anything else and it often involves guys at the end of their careers, like masumi kuwata.

unlike many of the latin american leagues, the asian leagues don’t function as a feeder to major league development systems. in some areas such as china or korea the point can be made that it’s due to lack of scouting or player awareness but that’s no possible excuse for japanese players, who play in the middle of a constant media circus. you’re assuming the players in the far east WANT to come and play in the major leagues because it’s assumed to be the highest level of baseball competition but i assure you, it’s no mark against a japanese player – and is perhaps credit to him from the standpoint of the japanese fans – to spend his entire career in the japanese league.

by johnnycuff on May 20, 2008 11:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

as a new yorker

I’d love for the bucs to be joined with the mets. More pirates-mets games at shea and to watch on the tube.

by vherub on May 19, 2008 4:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Pittsburgh is NOT a Midwestern city!

I totally agree with Brooklynpirate – Pittsburgh can’t really be classified as either a eastern or midwestern city. It has its own vibe, its own accent (for better or worse) and a culture which to me feels far more similar to Philadelphia than Indianapolis or St. Louis. Historically, it has always been oriented toward the east and until fairly recently – the emergence of the Steeler/Browns wars in the 60s and Penn State’s entry into the Big 10 in the 1990s – that’s where its rivalries were to be found.
I would love to have the Pirates re-establish their now almost forgotten rivalry with the Phillies (which in the 70s was just as intense and fierce as the Red Sox /Yankees wars)!

by commo on May 23, 2008 3:40 PM EDT   0 recs

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