Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: World Soccer Digest for Soccer Fans!

Pirates to Walk Tightrope

First, a disclaimer: Yes, I know that things the front office says can't always be taken at face value. Got it.

From the Post-Gazette: 

"If our fans see one player getting traded, it doesn't mean the red flag is up," Coonelly said.

"As we've said for months, we are always going to pick up the phone when someone calls. And we are constantly talking internally about how we can improve the club for 2008, as well as going forward."

"If we make that type of trade now, a veteran for prospects, it just means we had an opportunity we couldn't pass up," Huntington said.

Again, this could all be gamesmanship. I get that. But let's assume for a second that Coonelly and Huntington are serious.

This is dumb. This team is in fifth place. It has no starting pitching to speak of. It is dead last in the majors in ERA and third from worst in walks allowed. Its offense is being generated almost entirely by four players, three of whom have long injury histories. They're three games below .500, and it looks unlikely (at least to me) that they'll even be able to continue the run of mediocrity they've had so far. This is not a good team. I'm sorry if that makes me a nattering nabob, but I'm right. 

Coonelly and Huntington are smart guys, no doubt. But if they think they have a good chance of building a real franchise here and fielding a competitive team in 2008, they're really fooling themselves. Executing one plan is difficult enough. And think about the arrogance of a two-pronged plan like that--"Yes, the franchise hasn't had a winning season in 15 years, and GMs are probably smarter now than they have been at any point in the history of baseball, but we're so smart we can build a winning team without a ton of money or much in the farm system. Also, we're not going to try to trade our players for prospects, because we want to compete now." This is a ridiculous strategy; it's like agreeing to go one-on-one against Kevin Garnett, and then tying your own hand behind your back.

The values of Jason Bay and Xavier Nady will almost certainly never be higher for the Pirates than they will be in the next two months. They need to be traded. 

0 recs  |  Comment 19 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

You're right, up to a point

But really, if you’re a GM for a contending team and you think if you hold out a little longer there’s a chance you might be able to scoop up, say, Adam Dunn, would you be trying to make a deal now for Nady, who is almost certain to fall off from his current pace and is notoriously fragile besides? Didn’t think so.

by bucdaddy on May 30, 2008 7:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Again.......

I continue to think you are completely misreading this Charlie. I don’t see any of the things that you speak of in the comments. Management has many constituencies to speak to through the media—the fans, the current players, agents, other organizations. I really don’t know what you expect our guys to say or what you would say publicly that would be much different. In no way do I think they are saying they won’t trade guys for prospects. We can all guess if Bay and Nady’s worth is currently at its nadir or not. I’ve been on record killing Bay for the last twelve months and he has been very good this year. But I sure would have assumed that his peak was past. I also think that if Nady stays healthy all year that his value may continue to increase. My point being only that we are guessing and some of the things that we thought at the beginning of the year are clearly wrong.
Can we just give these guys a break until after the draft and after the trading deadline and evaluate what they have done rather than parsing every damn word in the press and making judgments based on that? Let’s talk about picking up Yates and Dumatrait for nothing if you want to talk about good moves or how bad the starters and Sean Burnett have been if we want to talk about bad things. But, talking about media interviews just seems to be getting a little tiresome.

by dtoddwin on May 30, 2008 8:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

My point being only that we are guessing and some of the things that we thought at the beginning of the year are clearly wrong.

Fair enough. But I don’t see the point in holding a player like Nady who’s posting easily his best ever OPS and will be a free agent after 2009.

by Charlie on May 31, 2008 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree with dtoddwin

It’s all about the draft right now. Trade talks will heat up after the draft, I bet. No way Nady stays, Huntington will wait on Bay because he has him locked up longer. He’ll go too. They’re just jockeying now, paying attention to the draft.

by JimBibbySweat on May 30, 2008 9:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, you seriously misread this, Charlie

I read it as him saying exactly what you’d like him to say.

First, consider Dejan’s lead up to these quotes—...even if a trade happens, it should not be interpreted as the first spark in a fire sale.

The quote are then PR aimed at the old guys who really think we ARE thisclose to being competitive. But the “couldn’t pass up” line, to me, clearly indicates he’s softening the blow for when, not if, they trade those guys.

“If our fans see one player getting traded, it doesn’t mean the red flag is up,” Coonelly said.

See, he said red flag, not white flag. He’s talking to fans here, fans who might be angry if they trade a marquee, face of the franchise guy like Bay.

“If we make that type of trade now, a veteran for prospects, it just means we had an opportunity we couldn’t pass up,” Huntington said.

Interpretation: “See fans, trades happen, and if we trade Bay, why, we just got these great prospects in return. With where we’re…. uhh, with where we are, we think these players help create a solid foundation for the franchise for several years, and we think with (Cutch? Pearce?) stepping in for Bay, we won’t see much of a dropoff this year.”

I mean, tell me where I’m wrong. I really don’t think I’m overparsing his comments here. I think you misread the tone and intent.

by azibuck on May 30, 2008 10:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Quite possibly these quotes ARE just PR, and I think I went out of my way to acknowledge that. But suppose they aren’t? Kovacevic is always talking about how forthright these guys are.

by Charlie on May 31, 2008 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, sorry if my answers seem glib. But I have to admit, I’m always surprised that whenever I write something about what Huntington actually says, there are instantly like four people saying, “You just don’t get it.” No, I do. I understand it’s possible - even likely - that the quotes shouldn’t be taken at face value. But reading as far into it as you are seems like a stretch to me, especially since we’ve all been waiting for these marquee trades to occur and they just haven’t yet.

Until some of these trades DO occur, I’m going to stick to responding to the actual content of these statements, even if I suspect they may not contain the whole truth.

by Charlie on May 31, 2008 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're misreading the content

I’m not reading far into them. I’m not reading into them at all. I think what I wrote was pretty obvious. Again, just look at the last line. He’s already rationalizing why they WILL trade these players.

You wrote that what NH and FC are saying is “Also, we’re not going to try to trade our players for prospects, because we want to compete now.”

I think they didn’t say that at all, in fact they said, forthrightly, the opposite. I’m not saying you don’t “get” it. I’m saying, what the hell are you talking about? Read it again.

You get it, just not in this post. By PR, I didn’t mean bullshit. I mean making something potentially unpopular sound reasonable. The quotes aren’t fluff at all. It’s just that, THEY’RE SAYING THEY’RE GOING TO TRADE FOR PROSPECTS.

by azibuck on May 31, 2008 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It seems to me that the “there might come a point” line is the only one that begins to justify your interpretation of the article. I don’t feel like arguing with you, because your analysis of their intentions could well turn out to be right, but they are a long way from forthrightly saying the opposite of what I think they’re saying.

by Charlie on Jun 1, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wholeheartedly agree with Charlie...

We are going nowhere because we have no pitching and Bay and Nady will never have more trade value than they have now. Nady is currently among the league leaders in RBIs and that cannot possibly last much longer. He’s way overdue to get hurt or fall into a protracted slump. Just check his stats to understand that. We absolutely have no pitching and when Dumatrait is your best pitcher then I think we can understand why. Neil is either afraid to make his first big deal or foolishly believes Nady and Bay will get better. Either way, he’s a fool. The draft can’t possibly help us for several years and that makes 2008 a throw-away year. It’s time to take the bull by the balls and have Neil begin earning his money by making some big deals and hope that the intelligence he thinks he has is actually there. I want to see some movement now. Sure, the past 15 years aren’t his fault but he’s been in the job long enough and he should do something soon. It’s a simple fact that our offensive producers aren’t going to get better. They’ve peaked!

by Illinois Pirate Fan on May 31, 2008 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be great to move Nady now but

teams have been assessing where they stand, what they have, etc. Teams will shift their attention to trading after the draft next week.

by JimBibbySweat on May 31, 2008 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

It takes two to tango. MLB is not some game of solitaire chess where you can move pieces around by yourself on a whim. NH can’t make deals with people who don’t want to make deals. I don’t know why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

by bucdaddy on May 31, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To clinch your argument

you need to provide some concrete examples of contending teams that could really be helped by Nady or Bay and the prospects you think they might be wiling to deal. The evaluation of Nady has been overwhelmingly negative on this site ever since he arrived in Pittsburgh. Yet you seem to suggest that there are GMs out there that would part with desirable prospects to obtain him. These GMs must have the same concerns that we all do about Nady and, to a lesser extent Bay.

My guess is that if the Pirates did do a deal in the near futute for the players that they could get for them at this point it wouldn’t be two hours before you were on with a post explaining what a rotten deal it was for us.

by WestCoastBuc on May 31, 2008 12:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, that’s true. Not only do I want them to make trades, I want them to make GOOD trades. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, and I don’t think I’ve been unreasonable in the past in comparing trades to trades other teams have made, and so on.

by Charlie on May 31, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, Huntington DOES look smart right now for holding onto Nady. I probably should have been more clear about that.

The issue, though, is that Nady’s probably going to be gone after 2009 regardless. I think it’s highly unlikely he’ll maintain his current pace, but even if he does, his value probably won’t rise much anyway because he’s inching closer to free agency.

by Charlie on May 31, 2008 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t want to get in the middle of this argument. But I have been wondering about this for some time so I might as well ask it now.

What exactly are we expecting to get for Bay and/or Nady? I mean, we need top-flight starting pitching prospects, preferably right handers with some heat. Any talent is nice to get, but starting pitching is the only thing that would make any real difference on this team. Are teams really going to trade top-notch starting pitching prospects for outfielders (even good hitting ones)?

Another thing, is now the time to make this trade? I highly doubt that Bay and Nady will be hitting like this in July/August. However, are teams already looking to trade for outfielders? It seems like these big trades tend to happen in mid-summer because that is when teams know that they are close and just need one or two more pieces to get over the hump. Do teams make prospects for pieces deals now – when so much can still happen to ruin their seasons? I haven’t been following baseball all that closely until the last year or so, I don’t know the answer to these questions. Many of you know much about this. What are your thoughts?

by houksyndrome on Jun 1, 2008 1:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think

you raise some very good points, and JimBibbySweat and bucdaddy seem to be agreeing with you above. NH hasn’t pulled the trigger yet, probably, because he agrees with you. Nady and Bay’s values will rise move if they continue to hit because contenders that have weaknesses in the corner outfield will certainly get more agressive to fix them as those weaknesses become more and more obvious. When division races get tighter and the time until the season end gets shorter, the demand for help through trades will increase and so will players’ values.

Maybe it is wishful thinking, but there will be a team that is willing to part with a top young arm, because they have pitching depth, for a good corner bat. It is NH’s job to find that team and sell Bay or Nady over an other outfielders on the block.

by DITO on Jun 1, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Bucco Bashing
Small
Conventional Wisdom
101_0170_small
40-Man Moves
18470r_small
Rule 5 possibilities
20080124sgrammy_330_small
Small Market Teams Pocketing Spare Change
Small
Jeebus Cracker
Small
McCutchen's defense
Small
Roberto calling
20090612mf_fleury_cup_500hp_small
Pirates would trade Doumit!
Leo4_small
John Sickels' Comments on Donnie Veal

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Mariners Eyeing Doumit
Tabata 5-5 w/3 Ribbies - Hitting .390 @ EOS
Bay rejects $60M over 4 years
"[Chase D'Arnaud] does everything well enough," said an American League...
Pirates hire Steve Williams as Major League scout
Jim Tracy, Baby! NL Manager of the Year!
2009 Minor League Six-Year Free Agent Listing
NL Rookie of the Year: Chris Coghlan
2010 CHONE Projections
2010 UZR Projections

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SPONSORS


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie