that two good things are true about these guys, although I also get the sense that I’m in the minority here about both of these things being good:

(1) I think NH won’t hesitate to trade Bay and/or Nady and/or anybody else on the team if he thinks it will make the team better in the long run;

(2) I think NH won’t hesitate to hesitate, if he isn’t convinced that he’s getting a good return back.

If Dave Littlefield didn’t teach us anything else, he taught us that when you’ve absolutely decided that you absolutely have to trade someone, you are going to get crap in return. It is a fundamental principle of negotiation that if the other side knows you won’t walk away, then you have no leverage at all. If it’s known in the industry that we’re hell-bent to get rid of these guys, no one will offer us anything.

And here’s something that gets forgotten a lot; we might not get offered anything anyway. Bob Smizik’s column today wasn’t totally fair—even without a body of work, it’s not fair to compare NH’s hypothetical trading acumen to DL’s established work. But looking at what we got for a lot of those guys… whew. Not much. Looking at trade deadline deals in general… not much.

Do I want to see them win 75 games for the next three years? No. But do I want to see them win 60 games for the next three years because they traded guys who are good, right now, for a bunch of rummies? Do you? Seriously?

Success or failure; there’s no guarantee either way. Sometimes it’s easier just to watch the team and hope they win games. We’ve really lost the forest for the trees if we can’t do that.

even if we don`t make trades.

Nady can`t stay healthy and is a Boras client. Does anyone here honestly think the best years of his career will be from 2010? I sure as hell don`t.

Bay is playing better this year, but how about him and his creaky knees from 2010? You get the same snowball`s chance in hell prediction from me. Smizik seems to think that Bay and Nady will be rolling in the dough from 2010. I wouldn`t be so sure about that.

Charlie and others have pointed out numerous times on this site about second basemen “not aging well.” Well, does anyone here think we should expect Freddy Sanchez to man 2B for us after next season? Freddy is injury-prone and will not be peaking at age 32/33. I think he`s already reached and passed his peak.

LaRoche and his Latrocious(this should be a new entry in Merriam-Webster) starts to each and every season aside, I would certainly hope we have others in place to confidently take his place from 2010 from the trio of Walker, Pearce and Alvarez.

Who is going to play SS from 2010? Will it be Jack Wilson? Bixler? Friday? One of our 2008 draftees?

Other than McClouth, and perhaps McCutchen, who will give us any quality play in the OF after Bay and Nady are gone?

Can Doumit stay healthy behind the plate for the next few years? Who else do we have? An overdraft like Andrew Walker who may or may not be a prospect? Somebody they drafted this year?

And on and on….without even getting into the pitching.

This team MUST make moves. As Charlie points out, we don`t need any “Littlefield trades.” But it will take at least a few years to build any semblance of a productive farm system from this year`s draft and beyond. It will also take at least few years to get any production out of our new commitment to/facilities in Latin America.

Keep everyone-and even pick up Marte`s option for 2009-and “The Drive For 75” might very well become reality this year and next. But I`d rather the team prepare for what will hopefully be numerous postseason runs after 2010, instead of settling for middlin` mediocrity to avoid a dubious pro sports record for futility and appease the fanbase.

It`s your move, Pirates` management.

shoudln’t more thought be given to trading additional players such as Capps, Snell and Gorzo? I understand it was the latter two that really interested teams during the last off season, not Bay and Nady. As I have written before, I think most of us would be disappointed with the package of prospects we could get for the two outfielders because it strikes me as inconceivable that GMs wouldn’t have the same concerns about them that have been expressed numerous times here and, therefore, be unwilling to part with high-upside prospects in return.

On the other hand, if the two starters show signs that their early struggles this season were temporary, I believe the Pirates could get the types of potential impact players that we seek for them or perhaps in a package including one of the outfielders.

An important consideration in the decision to trade Bay and Nady is when exactly we hope to be able to field a competitive team. Some give the impression that they are looking to something like 2010 to 2012 but I think that is very unlikely given the dearth of prospects currenlty in our minor league system. Further, it seems likely that GMs would be more willing to part with high-upside prospects now in A ball than ones that are nearly major league ready now. It would be great if the Dodgers would part with Matt Kemp for Bay and Marte but I don’t think that is likely. More realistic would be to obtain players that are several years away from the majors and who will not be ready to help us by 2010 or even 2012 at the major league level.

By then Snell ,Capps and Gorzo ( Doumit and perhaps others should be included in this discussion as well) will all be free agents and the question has to be when can we get the most return for them. Of course it would probably not be wise to shop the two starters now since they have been struggling but it seems to me that if they start pitching well again, they will have far more value in the near future than when they are a year or two away from free agency.

Another reason to at least consider a full house cleaning in the near future rather than just trading the guys who are near free agency is that we will ensure ourselves of very high draft picks for the next several years. We will also have a very low payroll at the major league level so we ought to be able to afford to sign some very deirable draft picks.

Of course all of the fans besides the ones that visit this site will probably hate management for these moves but they will be willing to forgive in around 2015 as the young Pirates mature and are ready, finally to contend.