Pirates 5, Astros 2: Duke's Success Continues
This was a pretty nifty win for the Bucs. Zach Duke is reaching the point where he deserves a little slack--I'm skeptical of his ability to continue to post good starts with his ugly K/BB numbers, but so far he's doing his job. Tonight he posted 7.2 unspectacular but effective innings; he's now gone at least six innings in seven of his last eight starts (as Thunder pointed out in the gamethread). That has value. Basically, he's like Kirk Rueter plus some groundballs and minus some homers right now. If Rueter hadn't worked so fast, he would've been about the most boring pitcher ever, but he got the job done for a long time.
When the theory of DIPS--the idea that pitchers had little control over what happened once balls were put in play--was introduced several years ago, people really marveled about it, and one of the arguments against it was Kirk Rueter, who (it was argued) couldn't possibly put up such low ERAs if all that mattered were strikeouts, walks and homers allowed. I can't find the article now, but someone did a study that suggested (if I remember correctly) that Rueter was able to get away with obscenely low strikeout rates because he was a very intelligent pitcher who attacked batters with the bases empty, resulting in bunches of solo homers and few bases-empty walks, then tried to paint the corners with runners on, resulting in some walks with runners on but few homers. He was thus able to avoid big innings and keep runs off the board. I checked his splits and this appears to be basically true throughout the portions of his career when he was good (from 1996 through 2003). In 2004, this stopped working and he found himself out of the league pretty quickly.
Duke seems like a pretty sharp guy too, so I checked his splits. He doesn't have the problems Rueter had with homers, but I wondered if he might be just throwing the ball into the zone kind of indiscriminately with the bags empty in order to prevent walks, then trying to be more fine once there were men aboard.
Overall, major league pitchers are allowing a .254 batting average against this year with none on. That number rises to .267 with runners on. In 2007, it was .262 with the bases empty and .276 with runners on. In 2006, it's .264 and .276. So there appears to be some consistency--pitchers allow slightly more hits, on average, with runners on.
Duke's average against with none on this year is .326, thanks to the Pirates' awful defense and the fact that he never strikes anyone out. But his average with runners on is only .293 (and with less power, too). His walk rates are about the same in both situations.
This is the only year of Duke's career where the trend holds, however. In fact, in 2007 he allowed a .337 batting average with no one on and a .385 average with runners. Of course, when the numbers are that bad, you may have to just say he had no control over anything and leave it at that. (Those remarkable averages show what happens when you mix a horribly confused pitcher and a terrible defense. Water into acid. Kablooey!)
So it looks like Duke's success so far this year has been the result of a pretty Duke-specific application of the Rueter method. Whether this is a skill Duke has acquired or whether it's just the result of small sample size remains to be seen. I'm pretty sure it's the latter, although I'm mildly encouraged by the fact that Duke has basically been even better this year when pitching with two men on instead of one, or with two outs. My guess, though, is that Duke's ERA will inch up as the year goes on. His groundball tendencies will keep him from being too terrible, but ultimately it's going to be very hard to maintain a 4.19 ERA while striking out only three batters per nine innings.
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Interesting comparison
We should be so lucky if Duke can go 93-59 over a seven-year stretch, like Rueter did, while being so thoroughly mediocre otherwise. Even with two 120 ERA+ seasons, KR’s career number was 97, and his career ERA was just .11 above league average.
by bucdaddy on Jun 4, 2008 10:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, I didn’t mean to suggest anything about his won-loss record, but the ERA thing, maybe. Also… actually, I’m just going to go ahead and update the post.
by Charlie on Jun 4, 2008 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I know
I just didn’t realize Rueter had a record that good for that long, given all his other numbers, so I thought I’d mention it. I don’t know if he’s an extreme case of a won-loss record not being a true indicator of a pitcher’s ability, or whether he was somehow that unquantifable thing, a “winner,” a guy who could really bear down with runners on base. Could there be such a thing as a clutch pitcher? Anyway, he was pretty damn durable, I know that. For six years he gave the Giants at least 32 starts and 193 innings a year, and up to 219 innings. They were pretty average innings, but as they say, you can’t argue with success. I’d take two or three of him on my team, but then I like Josh Fogg a lot too, and we see how that’s turned out this year.
by bucdaddy on Jun 4, 2008 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. Check the post now that I’ve updated it. :) Great minds think alike.
by Charlie on Jun 4, 2008 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do
But it’s probably too much to ask you to join my quixotic effort to push Jamie Moyer as a fringe HoF candidate.
by bucdaddy on Jun 4, 2008 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
45 and still pitching
Since 1986? 236 wins? He’s got my vote for the HOF
by Bad Andy on Jun 4, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crappy junkballers <<<<< Jamie Moyer < Greg Maddux
I love watching Moyer. He’s a thinking man’s pitcher. It always bugs me when some young soft-tosser is coming up and they compare him to Maddux. Just because Maddux wasn’t “overpowering” doesn’t mean he didn’t have a good fastball. I mean, he had 5mph on these guys when he was their age. Duke and others, I bet I could find a link to where Lloyd and Spin wanted Duke or Fogg or someone else to “meet with Maddux and pick his brain.”
They would be better off asking Moyer, who has a real assortment of junk, and is a master of it. Anybody can throw junk, but Moyer knows how to throw junk. No two pitches the same speed in an at-bat. 3-4 different curveball speeds. Jamie Moyer is a crafsman.
by azibuck on Jun 5, 2008 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as we're making comparisons
I’ll throw out this one. It’s not meant to be taken TOO seriously, I just thought it was a fun parallel. I won’t tell you right off who Pitcher A is, but you should be able to figure it out easily.
Pitcher A was lefty, like Moyer, but he was the absolute opposite of a junkballer. He too got off to a slow start in his career, was 36-40 and except for the high strikeout totals he was about a league-average pitcher until about age 25, when things began to go in his favor. For one, he went from pitching in two tiny home ballparks (the first had a 297-foot RF line and was 393 at its deepest, the second had a 251-foot LF line) to pitching in a new stadium with much vaster walls. For another, TPTB decided there was too much offense in baseball and expanded the strike zone.
Pitcher A was pretty good anyway. Now, pitching in the second deadball era and in a pitcher friendly park, he became a monster, putting up these seasons (the third number is the league ERA):
25-5, 1.88 (2.99)
19-5, 1.74 (3.25)
26-8, 2.04 (3.26)
27-9, 1.73 (3.28)
That’s 129-47
30 years later, nobody uses the four-man rotation, and the relief specialist is fully in vogue. So now it’s impossible to get 36 starts a year, much less 36 decisions. The strike zone has been restored and the ballparks are again being built smaller (one of Moyer’s teammates in Seattle put up 56 homers in back-to-back seasons), so offense is up, baseball draws from a much larger talent pool and some of those players are roided to the gills … any number of changes that swung the advantage toward the offense.
It took Moyer about seven years longer to figure out how to pitch - he had to do it without Pitcher A’s fabulous fastball - but starting at 33 here’s what he did for eight years:
13-3, 3.98 (5.11)
17-5, 3.86 (4.48)
15-9, 3.53 (4.61)
14-8, 3.87 (5.02)
13-10, 5.49 (4.58)
20-6, 3.43 (4.17)
13-8, 3.32 (4.24)
21-7, 3.27 (4.30)
That’s 126-56.
Am I saying Moyer is/was as good as Koufax? Even I don’t think so. But given what he had to work with and under what conditions, I’m confident in asking: Which of these is the more impressive achievement?
by bucdaddy on Jun 5, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coincidentally
I was just reading the latest parsing of a JoeChat at firejoemorgan and a questioner asked Joe which pitcher threw the single toughest pitch he’d faced. After some equivocating, he picked Kent Tekulve. But before that he wrote this:
“Bob Gibson had the toughest low fastball. Koufax’s was more belt high and above.”
“Belt high and above” in today’s game is, of course, a ball. Joe broke into the league in 1963, right about the time the strike zone was expanded upward.
Koufax would have had a bunch of strikeouts anyway, but my point is the expanded zone played perfectly into his power and turned him from merely goodpitcher into superpitcher.
by bucdaddy on Jun 5, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of
an interesting comparison for moyer….his last time out, he and snell pitched the same day. snell, as we know, got tagged for 5 runs in the first three innings, and was done after 4+ having given up 6.
moyer, at the same time, also gave up 5 runs in the first three innings, but then pitched four more shutout innings and wound up getting the win. sure, thats partly a product of philly’s offense sucking less than ours, but perhaps snell could learn something from this man
by geeves on Jun 5, 2008 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk Reuter
He was trying to get his feet wet in Montreal. He had the same hot start as Duke (8-0). He struggled to break through then Montreal dumped him to San Francisco where he proceeding to breakout. That happened in his 5th season. This is Duke’s 4th season in the big leagues. There are rumors that he may be trade bait. To trade him now would be a HUGE mistake. We just have to keep being patient. When the Bucs finally turn it around you got Lincoln, Duke, Maholm, Dumatrait, and a hot shot prospect kicking butt nightly. Snell and Gorzo? Well the jury’s still out.
by Bad Andy on Jun 4, 2008 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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