Rosenthal: A's Interested in Jason Bay

by Charlie on Jul 23, 2008 5:30 PM EDT Comment 23 comments

The A's continue to talk with the Pirates about left fielder Jason Bay, but a trade remains unlikely — the Pirates want more than the A's are willing to give. The A's are trying to build a long-term contender as they prepare for the opening of their new ballpark in 2012. Acquiring Bay for the rest of this season and next season would do little to help them accomplish that goal.

Well, right. The A's do have the prospects necessary to acquire Bay, but the question is why they'd want to. Already this season they've traded Rich Harden--who had a reasonably-priced option for 2009--and Joe Blanton. The A's seem to have their sights set on 2010 at the earliest, and by that point, Bay could well be gone via free agency.

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i would love

to have Trevor Cahill…that would be nice

North Side Notch

by northsidenotch on Jul 23, 2008 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Probably think they can re-sign him.

by Vlad on Jul 23, 2008 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Can't see it happening.

I would hate to think that NHs 1st major deal will be with Beane.

by Slick1 on Jul 23, 2008 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Beane can be beaten

Bonderman, Pena, and German for Lily, Griffin, and Arnold. Or Hudson for Cruz, Meyer, and Thomas.

It’s kind of scary, but Beane isn’t omnipotent.

by Vlad on Jul 23, 2008 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The A's have consistently done...

... what the Pirates have consistently failed at: rebuilding while contending… mostly by trading overrated veteranosity for a few prospects and then plugging in younger players without much performance dropoff…

by Captain Easychord on Jul 23, 2008 8:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup

The Pirates have consistently been unable to make the tough decisions. Beane got hammered in the media for trading Hudson and Mulder, but overall the two trades were probably about a wash, talent-wise, and made the A’s younger and cheaper. The Pirates have never had the guts to pull the string like that because their priority is always to cobble together that barely-.500 team to break the losing streak. While the Pirates sit around wringing their hands about whether they should “break up the team,” as if they were talking about the end of a dynasty, Beane just goes out and makes moves aimed at getting to the post-season. They’re not always the right moves, but at least he has a coherent goal.

by WTM on Jul 23, 2008 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Helps to have a Hudson and Mulder...

to trade. I believe Haren started the 2007 All-Star game as well. When you have a player with proven success that GM’s want, it’s pretty easy to make an impact trade.

by ElliottBayBucco on Jul 24, 2008 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It also helps

to not have the thoughts in the league be
“oh look, the Pirates. we know we can rip them off”.
Not NH’s fault, but it probably exists, at least a little bit.

The Buccos have Bay & Marte (and maybe Wilson & X-Man)... but now they need teams to realize that they’re serious about the returns they want.

The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".

by UtesFan89 on Jul 24, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WTM...I couldn't have said it better.

It does appear that current management does not have a specific direction in mind for this team and that they still haven’t determined how they will stop the bleeding. If they had a definitive plan I believe we would have seen the early results of it. The fact they have done nothing significant indicates that either their plan has fallen apart or it was never thought out fully. Their inability to make significant trades indicates that either they have not properly evaluated current talent or they are simply such novices at this job that they are being overwhelmed by other GMs with considerably more baseball savvy. Finally, Beane would have already put his mark on this team and would never, ever, become complacement with the talent of a 68-win team.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 24, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you read my post in the other thread?

The one about how Beane didn’t immediately blow up the A’s when he took over there? How in his first eight months he didn’t make a single established-veteran-for-significant-prospect trade? I’m guessing not, or you wouldn’t still be waving Beane around like some kind of bloody shirt to call for immediate, drastic action.

Maybe the plan was to trade guys last offseason if there were good deals on the table, and if there weren’t, to hold them until the deadline this year to maximize leverage. Ever think of that?

by Vlad on Jul 24, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Billy Beane

Getting to the Billy Beane point (where practically every trade seems to have a huge haul) will take longer than a half a season.
When you call the Pirates, you’re expecting to get Aramis Ramirez for your next-door-neighbor’s dead hamster. Not NH’s fault, but he’s dealing with the incompetence of DL.
NH is going to have to work his ass off to get people to realize that he’s not “bluffing” with his trade demands… it won’t happen instantly.

I’m not going to compare Beane to NH, because that would be unfair to NH (right now?). But if you compare situations (as Vlad did in the Durham post), the question is… is NH ready to deal? Because unlike Beane, that homegrown talent thing will take a couple years (at least) to even begin to pay dividends.

I mean NH went out and got Dumatrait & Meek & Nate Sr. & Tytanic & Eye Chart & whoever he got for Torros (was that Salas?)... similar (?) to the early Beane moves.

But is NH in the same position… can he deal guys for prospects now? Or does he have to wait? The whole “home-grown” thing is missing here…

Because the longer he waits, the more people are going to turn on him. Not his fault, really… but people are ready for a change after DL, and no one thinks that standing pat is going to accomplish that. Obviously, that’s a stupid reason to trade players (especially if you’re not being given enough)... but you have to start somewhere, no? Where does he start? And when?

Does this even make any sense?

The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".

by UtesFan89 on Jul 24, 2008 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UtesFan89

I’m not sure I can totally agree with everything you said because Bean is NH’s counterpart as are all of the GMs and so I believe it is a fair to expect ours to have the same impact as any other. Of course, that means that NH can also be compared to the poorer ones, too. I am willing to wait until August 15 to finally reserve judgement on NH’s performance for the first year when both the trading and signing deadlines have past. However, I do expect him to sign our draft choices and to complete some deals to begin replenishing our farm system and if he fails to do either tasks then I think we should hold him accountable for his actions.

If he can’t make any significant trades then I expect him to find pitchers the equivalent to Wellemeyer and Lohse like the Cardinals continue to do. I believe that we deserve to see some changes so we can have some hope for next year as opposed to standing pat and virtually assuring another unsuccessful year even before this one is over.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 24, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Surely you see the difference...

...between a guy who’s been with his organization for six months, and one who’s been with his organization for more than ten years (and has drafted, signed, or traded for every player in the system)? The latter guy is a lot more free to act, isn’t he?

In all the management training books I’ve seen, they’ve said that the worst thing a new guy can do is just rush in and start changing things willy-nilly, before figuring out what he’s got and what he doesn’t.

by Vlad on Jul 24, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vlad:

I understand that you are concerned that NH should not make deals quickly just so he can say that he has made changes to the team but I don’t think it’s too much to expect us to hire a GM who could hit the ground running and begin to make meaningful decisions. I believe we have a right to expect a GM that can perform as well as any other GM given the financial constraints within which he must operate. In other words, I cannot excuse his inaction simply because he was new to the job. He has had plenty of time to learn on the job and we can’t afford another GM who has to learn his trade at our expense. He was supposedly hired because of his experience with Shapiro and the Indians and I don’t think it’s to much to expect him to apply that knowledege now. I am in agreement with you and don’t want him to act too quickly and make deals just for show. However, in my opinion he’s had sufficient time to do something positive and I feel that we have a right to expect to see the fruits of his decisions now.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 24, 2008 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He IS applying that knowledge now.

He’s done it so far with institutional changes like the new data management system, and the upgrades to the Dominican facility, and stuff like that. Those things are all tremendously meaningful. They just aren’t flashy.

The problem with expecting him to “hit the ground running” is that when he got here, he didn’t necessarily know the type of ground he was running on. You can’t necessarily make accurate judgments about personnel from an outsider’s perspective (for example, how many people knew the true state of Bay’s knee over the winter?), and when he got here there wasn’t time to hire and acclamate a whole staff before the winter meetings. As such, most of his intel was coming from guys who’d been here under Littlefield, which made them inherently suspect. The last thing he’d want to do is listen to some old putzer talk about how Nady’s a bum, unload him for a used jockstrap, and have him tear things up with the Padres.

Ergo, he soft-pedaled it a bit. Which is fine, and pretty standard practice for all new GMs when they first assume control of a franchise. Even Beane did it, as I pointed out before. Now that he’s had some time to get an accurate gague of people’s strengths and weaknesses, we’ll probably see some action at the deadline (which is still, I must point out, a week away).

by Vlad on Jul 24, 2008 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vlad

“The problem with expecting him to "hit the ground running" is that when he got here, he didn’t necessarily know the type of ground he was running on. “

Yes, and then he noticed the quicksand everywhere, courtesy of Dave Littlefield.

by patthatt on Jul 24, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Beane has an ownership stake in the team. THAT certainly gives him a lot more latitude.

by matskralc on Jul 24, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again though...

when you deal with Beane, you expect to be ripped off.
when you deal with the Buccos, you expect to do the ripping off.

NH has to change that attitude before he’s able to do much of anything.

As for finding pitchers… he did give shots to Tytanic and Dumatrait and Meek and Salas and Osoria, etc.
Of course, NH came in when Snell, Gorzo, Duke & Maholm looked like a fine top 4, and you had Morris as the 5th, plus the guys he added. No real way for him to know that 1 of the 5 would retire, another would have to be demoted, and a 3rd would pitch horribly. He might be more likely to look at starters this off-season, having seen “his guys” for a season then, and having seen them fail.

Just what I’m thinking though… I’m not a GM or anything.

The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".

by UtesFan89 on Jul 24, 2008 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The plan is working fine

If the plan was to have Gorzo in the minors, Snell pitch like he wants to join him, and Morris to finally lose even his veteranosity.

by azibuck on Jul 24, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, wait...

are you blaming NH for Gorzo’s bad pitching? Or am I misreading that?

The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".

by UtesFan89 on Jul 24, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If NH were a good GM...

...he’d be out there on the mound during games, moving the pitchers’ arms through the proper motions.

Slacker.

by Vlad on Jul 24, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or pitching for them.

Not like it could be much worse.

The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".

by UtesFan89 on Jul 24, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs