I Guess It's Pick On ESPN Day...
by Charlie on Jul 30, 2008 6:00 AM EDT
41 comments
But, at least on this score, they started it. There's nothing more embarrassing than smarmy writers who don't know what they're talking about. Where to start with this one?
Please, someone, tell me what I'm missing here...
The two most covered Pirates players, outfielder/first baseman Nady and left-handed reliever Marte, are irresistible additions for myriad contending teams.
You're missing Jason Bay, who's on the trade market and is plainly more coveted than either of these players.
Both [Nady and Marte] would be thrilled to leave Pittsburgh to join a pennant race.
Er... did I miss the article where Nady and Marte talked about how thrilled they'd be to leave Pittsburgh, or do writers just get to assume this?
After six years of Littlefield's incompetence (he will never live down rejecting the Phillies' offer of Ryan Howard for Kip Wells in 2005), Pittsburgh desperately needs to replenish its farm system.
According to everything I've ever heard, Howard was never offered for Wells. He was offered for Kris Benson in 2004. Get it right.
Having lived through the flameouts of the Neil Walkers and J.R. Houses and Chad Hermansens, the Pirates crave young, high-ceiling studs.
Walker's having a poor season, but he's 22 and in Class AAA. Do you really want to call him a flameout?
The Evil Empire reaches the postseason … again. The Laughingstocks at Three Rivers lose 90-plus games … again.
Is there a fact checker in the house? If so, has he or she been hiding behind a rock since Y2K?
When you're the Pittsburgh Pirates, and your farm system is as barren as Phil Gramm's public speaking calendar, you don't simply require good, solid prospects who could -- just maybe -- turn into something. You need Grade-A beef: an Ian Kennedy (Yankees), a Michael Almanzar (Red Sox), an Ivan DeJesus Jr. (Dodgers). You need at least one guy to make up for past misdeeds; one guy who shoots you up the Baseball America rankings.
Anybody who thinks that Ivan DeJesus Jr. is a better prospect than Jose Tabata--or that DeJesus constitutes "Grade A beef" in any way--really should think twice about the smarter-than-thou attitude.
And Tabata, compared by Pirates first baseman Doug Mientkiewicz to a young Manny Ramirez, offers as much risk as reward.
Right, better call up the Red Sox and ask for Michael Almanzar, who's 17 and has played all of seven games above rookie ball. What could possibly go wrong there?
(Almanzar's a good prospect, but an absurd argument is an absurd argument.)
Yes, [Tabata is] 19 years old with oodles of talent. But he's been terrible at Double-A (.248, three home runs in 79 games), turning off Yankees brass with his attitude as much as his inability. Put simply, Tabata is as likely to be the next Mark Quinn as he is the next Manny.
So... for a year and a half of Xavier Nady and half a year of Damaso Marte, the Pirates got a player who has a good a chance of being the next Manny Ramirez as he does of being the next Mark Quinn? It sounds like this guy likes Tabata even more than I do.
Over the past decade, we have seen our share of dreadful trades -- the Mets shipping Scott Kazmir to Tampa Bay for Victor Zambrano and Bartolomé Fortunato; the Giants sending Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and Boof Bonser to the Twins for A.J. Pierzynski; the Cardinals trading Danny Haren, Kiko Calero, and Daric Barton to Oakland for Mark Mulder.
How do I just know that at the time, this guy thought the Mulder trade was a steal for the Cardinals?
And, more importantly, if Tabata does turn into the next Manny Ramirez (which I doubt, but which this guy says is possible), won't this deal be just as lopsided as the other three?
The Pirates needed to turn Nady and Marte into an evening at Per Se, with the cappuccino of forest mushrooms, oysters and pearls, chaud-froid and boeuf grillee.
Instead, they got a lunch at a fast-food joint -- lots of calories, no cows.
I have no idea what chaud-froid is, but I'm pretty sure that's an unintentionally hilarious metaphor anyway. Dangit, Neal, why didn't you get any cows?
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Charlie
Did you notice this quote?
“McCutchen, also 25, serves up a mediocre 92 mph fastball and, two years ago, was suspended 50 games for steroids.”
Didn`t all parties involved say it was for medication for ADD? Unless this guy has some proof that it was for steroids, and that the Pirates, McCutchen etc. are lying, this is bull**it.
If I`m wrong, somebody please point me the way to the proof.
by patthatt on Jul 30, 2008 7:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
IF
He is playing for the MFY its medication, if its the Pirates, its steroids.
by Reddrummer9187 on Jul 30, 2008 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of reporters are lazy
For them, a positive test = roids.
He just didn’t do his homework (which the rest of the piece should’ve told you, anyway).
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah...
when i read that article last night, i was kinda disgusted.
i was surprised that guy got paid to write stuff
by northsidenotch on Jul 30, 2008 8:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
not to mention...
this bit of amusement:
Step 5: The Pirates relinquish Nady and Marte to the Yankees in exchange for two Cosi Signature Salads, a book of matches, Brian Cashman’s eyeglasses and the rights to negotiate with Kevin Maas and Hensley Meulens.
now clearly pearlman was trying to be cool and flip here, but had he looked into where they are now, he might have found that meulens was already the AAA hitting coach…
but seriously, pearlman is an awful writer and apparently an even worse person… there seems to be an agenda to everything he writes, including his “controversial” articles about john rocker (yes, that article), david wells and barry bonds… I guess that now we can add NH to pearlman’s list of “villains”...
by Captain Easychord on Jul 30, 2008 8:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeff Pearlman is an idiot.
“The Pirates relinquish Nady and Marte to the Yankees in exchange for two Cosi Signature Salads, a book of matches, Brian Cashman’s eyeglasses and the rights to negotiate with Kevin Maas and Hensley Meulens.”
by patthatt on Jul 30, 2008 8:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chaud-frois
in a meat, cream, and gellatin congealed into jello-like substance with very little meat and high on calories. In other words, a wasted meal. While we can dispute some of their facts (Howard for Benson) the gist of the article is still right-on in my opinion and gives an insight into how most of the baseball world views the Pirate organization. As a result, there is no wonder that Neil was unable to pry loose Cashman’s top prospects. For a trade to work in our favor Pirate management must believe they are dealing from a position of strength and then convince the other team into believing it. I think we just saw an experienced GM (Cashman) taking advantage of a rookie GM (Neil). If I’m right we can expect to see more of the same. This is exactly why teams like to hire GMs with experience rather than have them learn on the job which simply delays the reconstruction process by several years. I think we have to face the fact that we are the “Detroit Lions” of MLB and Neil is Matt Millen.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 30, 2008 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I understand the first part of what you said, about how other GMs view the franchise,
but to say Cashman took advantage of NH just doesn’t make any sense at this point. Cashman got an above average late inning reliever and a below average corner outfielder with injury problems. To site his career year really isn’t that great of an argument—if he hasn’t been that great of a hitter for years, and he has had one, great half-year, he is far more likely to hit poorly in the second half than he is to stay a stud. If the Yankees don’t make the playoffs, Cashman will have done absolutely nothing positive for his team. I am not saying the Bucs got a haul (though, you and I both will if Tabata pans out), but your criticism here is a little bit strong.
I understand Nady had some value, and that is why I have been a proponent for trading him. But the value NH got is the value Nady had. I, and many others, have wanted to trade him because it is obvious he is playing over his head. Speculations about Wade Davis and another prospect or two were just silly to begin with.
by DITO on Jul 30, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mmm, salty meat jelly
That sounds horrible.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Delicious
I think they are going to offer that in the All-You-Cat Eat section.
by EndlessMike on Jul 30, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DITO
Part of the reason for my post is the desparation of the Yankee organization to beat Boston who just reactivated Ortiz and it would seem to me that Cashman absolutely had to get a left handed reliever and so I believe we should have gotten more. There may be some logic to your statement about Nady and it might be possible that the entire league thinks he’s hitting over his head and so I’m willing to concede you might be right on him. However, I can’t see that holding true for Marte and I thought we were dealing from a position of strength with him and an a result I don’t feel we got enough value for him.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 30, 2008 9:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There are lots of lefty relievers out there.
If we’d asked too much for Marte (for whatever value of “too much” you use), they could’ve just as easily walked away and traded for Mahay or Fuentes or Sherrill, etc.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF
I’m sure you’re a good person and I don’t want this in any way to be seen as an attack on you, however, I really don’t understand your point of view 98% of the time. Vlad and others have been carrying the flag on this for awhile, but I feel obliged to chime in. Your sense of reality and what actually exists is so skewed that I can’t understand it. You NEVER have anything positive to say about management and rarely about the team. For eight months you have killed them for not making a deal. Now they make a deal for four guys I’m sure you never heard of and you kill them for that. Now Nady and Marte are the best players ever, etc, etc.
There is no way to converse with you. The fact of the matter is we won’t know for two or three years whether it’s a good deal. Marte gave up a huge hit last night—is it all of a sudden a bad deal for the Yanks? You have to realize what we gave up. Probably 15 appearances by Marte and a year and two months of Nady and some supplemental picks. At the same time saving around $15 to reinvest (possibly in McLouth and Doumit?).
You seem to be such a hater no matter what happens. You have bashed NH from the get go. What did you think of the draft? What do you think of his acquisitions of Yates, Dumatrait, Bautista, Michaels, DougieM, Meek for virtually nothing. Certainly these guys aren’t long term solutions, but he is saving his bullets for when it matters. Nobody thinks we should go get the next Burnitz and Randa. What can this guy or this team do to possibly appease you? Please tell me.
by dtoddwin on Jul 30, 2008 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dtoddwin
A little history of me might help you to understand where I’m coming from. I’ve been a PIrate fan since 1959 and so I can remember the good years. We are in the midst of our 16th consecutive losing season and will soon set a professional sport record for futility. While I recognize that these past years were not the fault of NH the sting still exists and the frustration has accumulated. Since NH took over, by your own admission, he has only added Yates, Dumatrait, Bautista, Michaels, and Minky. I will admit that there is some value here but not very much and certainly not enough to change our losing ways. As a result, our losing ways will continue into the forseeable future. In the past 50 years, GMs have occasionally made amazing turnarounds to their teams misfortunes in a very short period of time and I was hoping NH would do the same thing. Yet, to date, nothing significant has happened and the losing continues with no end in sight. Most people will admit that only Tabata has any chance of making a significant contribution and that the others are simply “innings-eaters” at best and throwaways at worst.
I think most people agree that GMs like Bean succeed by simply out-working the other GMs and by willing to take a chance to vary from tradition. For example, it was he who pioneered the idea of having lhitters take lots of pitchers so as to get into the opposition’s bullpen sooner and thus pitch-counts were invented. It was he who developed the idea that college players perform better and quicker than high school players. Granted this didn’t work but it was something new and did give hope to his fans that a change might occur soon. It was he that traded several of his “star” pitchers who were approaching free-agency because he knew he couldn’t afford to resign them. In addition, his biggest contribution was his ability to continue to field very successful teams while he was re-tooling and this is something that has not happened in Pittsburgh and doesn’t appear to be happening in the foreseeable future.
Now, I can tolerate people not agreeing with me because I didn’t enter this board just to make friends but rather to converse with people with whom I disagree but yet have a common interest—the success of the Pirates. However, for some reason some people become upset because I vent my frustration at what I perceive to be inaction on the part of management and to them I would say that success will never be accomplished if we ignore the 800-pound elephant in the room. I never thought that the objective of a board like this was to sit around and congratulate each other for having the same opinions and so I don’t understand the animosity in some when I disagree with them. Isn’t that what this is about? If you want someone to tell you that everything is fine then I’m not the person with whom you would want to share ideas about the team. You don’t stop to share feelings with the iceberg when the ship is sinking. You reach for lifeboats and try to determine what went wrong so that history won’t repeat itself.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 30, 2008 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF
I appreciate the response. I have been a fan nearly as long and agree with most of what you wrote in your post.
My only question to you is didn’t we all realize a year ago that the cupboard is bare? DL and the previous regime were terrible in every possible way—as was McClatchy. I defy any GM to turn this situation around in a year or two, even my beloved Billy Beane. It is going to take good drafting, good development, hopefully a few prosperous trades (which I believe in this case with the Yankess can work for both teams because the objectives are different) and the occassional signing. I couldn’t imagine that this was going to happen this year or next. 2010? I’m hopeful.
I would only suggest that if you think it can happen faster, you have tremendously high expectations. I might even classify them as outlandish. Again thanks for the civil discourse.
by dtoddwin on Jul 30, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dtoddwin
“It is going to take good drafting, good development, hopefully a few prosperous trades (which I believe in this case with the Yankess can work for both teams because the objectives are different) and the occassional signing. I couldn’t imagine that this was going to happen this year or next. 2010? I’m hopeful.”
Myself and many others have said the same things to IPF for months now. You`re wasting energy typing.
IPF wrote about Oakland GM Bean(E!):
“It was he who developed the idea that college players perform better and quicker than high school players.”
?
by patthatt on Jul 30, 2008 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There aren't many people on here
that are saying everything is okay. There is a very large variance of opinions on how to fix the current situation, and some of this board’s most frequent posters are pretty happy with NH’s approach so far.
One thing that confuses me is that you seem to be in support for a fire sale, but then you say things like, “We are in the midst of our 16th consecutive losing season and will soon set a professional sport record for futility,” and “As a result, our losing ways will continue into the forseeable future,” implying that you are concerned about breaking 81 wins in 2009.
We are going to lose again in 2009, and probably 2010, and there is nothing NH can do about that. All he can do is implement a plan to build a true organization. He added much needed high minors and major league pitching depth along with a high upside OF prospect.
I am a little curious if the Bucs could have gotten this haul for Nady and Grabow, which would have made the deal much better, but I am not sure. I think I sit somewhere between you and Vlad when weighing Marte’s trade value.
by DITO on Jul 30, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As my grandma used to say:
“We shall see what we shall see.”
by bucdaddy on Jul 30, 2008 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
just imagine the brimstone if the trade was reversed
The Pirates have taken their already bare cupboards, ripped them off the wall and handed them to the Yankees in exchange for a 29 year old outfielder having a career half season and Damaso Marte, who will cost $6 million to stay with the team next year.
Are these the two players the Pirates were in need of to reach the playoffs? They had better be if the organization was ready to give up on 19 year old prospect Tabata, who some insiders have pegged as having Manny Ramirez ability, along with three pitchers. One of whom, Ohlendorf, was not long ago considered to be a key prospect in a potential Randy Johnson trade.
The exchange leaves the Bucs’ farm system in dire need, all the more so as the most recent high picks have yet to sign. Seeing as how the team is 13 games back and 7 games under .500, this trade will do little to improve the team now, and take them further away from fielding a competitive team in 3 to 4 years. Clueless management at its darkest.
by vherub on Jul 30, 2008 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty interesting take
Not enough to change my mind though. If the trade were reversed, I’d still be OK with getting two (unproven, lead bat, college or high school players), and I’d hope we could flip Nady for something else in a package with Grabow. And you’d also have to consider if it was the Yankees giving up Nady and Marte. The headlines in NY would be the same as Charlie’s headline about the Braves: “We give up.” Their fans would say they can’t believe they just threw away a chance at the postseason for 3 pitchers that will never help them and some AA head case with no power.
by azibuck on Jul 30, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No power?
There is a lot of buzz that says he generates a ton of bat speed and hits the ball hard. Plenty of guys develop power much later as they fill in—I know you know that.
by DITO on Jul 30, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is all about the hamate bone.
Guys with that problem often take a while to show power again.
It doesn’t mean that he’ll necessarily develop power, of course, but you have to give him at least a little bit of a pass for that.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No power
I was saying that from a Yankee fan’s perspective, if the trade were reversed. Yankee Fan: “Dat kid sucks, he’s no friggin power.”
That said, I’m aware of his sweet swing. That has not translated to power yet. In fact, his IsoP is pretty pathetic. What he could be and what he’s been may be two different things in the power department, but you can’t look at what he’s done and project power, you just can’t. Seeing his swing, yes, seeing his numbers, no.
by azibuck on Jul 30, 2008 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he were already hitting for power...
...you wouldn’t need to “project” it.
A projection is an estimate of future ability, in the absence of current ability. Ergo, Tabata has a power projection, as opposed to actual power.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not a projection, that's a prediction
A projection is based on present data. Like, if he had a bunch of doubles like, e.g., Nate McLouth. I’m not going to argue though because I think what I wrote was pretty clear. If the first and only thing you know about Tabata is what you read on his bbref page, he doesn’t look at all like a future power hitter. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not saying power shouldn’t be projected for Tabata, just that the projection doesn’t come from looking at this numbers.
by azibuck on Jul 30, 2008 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a terminology fight, then.
Projection is used in both ways. I mean, when scouts talk about a “projectable high-school pitcher”, they aren’t looking at spreadsheets, y’know? They’re looking at his gross anatomy, and making guesstimates about muscle growth and such.
When I see the term “prediction”, I envision a specific number (or range of numbers, or number within a given confidence interval) across a specific time frame. I.e., player X will hit 25-30 HR in 2012. A prediction of that nature could be derived from either type of “projection”.
by Vlad on Jul 31, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Package deal?
Dejan just got a blinding headache, and he has no idea why.
by Vlad on Jul 30, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not anymore
Nady/Marte sets a precedent!
by azibuck on Jul 30, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong On Marte
IPF – Marte was going to be gone at the end of the season. If he is designated an “A” player, we would have gotten two draft picks in June 2009. That’s it. Two unproven, lead bat, college or high school players with no assurances that the Pirate brass/scouting/player development personnel still know how to evaluate or develop talent.
If we trade Marte alone, we get very little in return. He would be a rental for most teams.
Nady is a very average player having a good year.
You should have no remorse whatsoever over this deal.
Be strong!
by thegunner on Jul 30, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Supply and Demand
IPF, with Mahay, Sherrill, Guardado, Rhodes, Eyre and a host of other lefty relievers on the market, I doubt that Cashman would have given up better prospects to make the deal.
by lafay99 on Jul 30, 2008 10:48 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Additionally
although everyone seems to want a lefty reliever there doesnt seem to be anyone willing to part with much to get one. If the market for Marte were that strong, someone would have immediately jumped on Sherrill, Ohman or Mahay. I think NH did a pretty good job of buying low and selling high here.
by #1BuccoFan on Jul 30, 2008 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Illinois Pirate Fan
As you can probably tell, you and I are pretty sympatico on our feelings about what the Pirates need to do. They need to infuse the Pirate system with players that can help them over the next two years. Most of these players will be young (20-23 years old) AA prospects (hopefully some impact prospects like Tabata) who can contribute next year or in 2010.
The Pirates need to build up their pitching and re-evaluate what they currently have in Pittsburgh with 2B, SS, and 3B (specifically Sanchez, Wilson and Bautista). I don’t think that any of those three can ever be counted on to be playing on a contending Pirate team.
If we end up with Bay and Wilson on the roster after the 7/31 deadline passes, it may be possible that not enough was offered for them. But if they are still with the club by spring training 2009, I, for one, will be very disappointed.
I don’t think that we can get much for Sanchez or Bautista, so when the opportunity presents itself, they should be part of a package deal.
by thegunner on Jul 30, 2008 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thegunner
I think you assessment of our talent level is right-on and that Sanchez, Wilson, and Bautista are not the type of players around which you build a winning team. I am especially concerned that previous management decided to spend the bulk of its money on two middle-infielders with no power and very limited speed. Both of these men could certainly help a team that has power in the corners and good pitching go from just being a contender to playing in the WS but we do not have that luxury and so we must not rely upon them in our rebuilding process because age will have taken their talents long before we have the requisite talent to compete. This is why I would like to see us try to package them as well as anybody else we have and get some pitching upon which can build. I guess what I’m saying is that only McClouth and Doumit are keepers and that everybody else should be considered to be expendable.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 30, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed,
except that I wouldn’t dump Bautista as a throw in on a package deal. He could be a really good utility guy—bench bat with some power and can play and OF position, 3B, 2B or even SS.
by DITO on Jul 30, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freddie
This might be a bad time to trade Sanchez, too. He’s had some injuries, but this has been by far the worst year of his career. We might as well keep him around and hope he’ll play well enough in 2009 to be attractive to a playoff contender. Even if he isn’t part of our long term plans, there’s no point in dumping a potentially valuable piece while his stocks are at all-time lows.
by BadMaafala on Jul 30, 2008 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charlie......
You should be the one writing for ESPN….....Couldn’t agree more with your commmentary.
by rissaldar on Jul 30, 2008 3:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
oblig fjm...
Food metaphors label, please!
by wickethewok on Jul 30, 2008 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
IPF
Here is an article I really think you should read. Please read the article and do not skim it. Please read the article about three times. Think about the Nady/Marte deal and how this article could read a couple of years from now.
Thank you!
by ElliottBayBucco on Jul 31, 2008 3:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ElliottBayBucco
Thank you for the article. I did read it very carefully and I do understand your point that deals cannot always be judged immediately but rather need time for all of the participants to be judged and so I will try to keep that in mind when discussing our recent trade with the Yankees. Further, I recognize that Tabata has a tremendous up-side and that by itself is encouraging. However, you must admit that the other 3 players involved in the deal don’t appear to be very talented and so after suffereing through the previous 15 years of losing I have become frustrated and want something which would give me hope for the future.
I realize that I may have underestimated NH’s abilities and I hope that is true because I would love to say that I was wrong. Maybe he’ll do something really big to impress before the trading deadline today. Let’s hope so.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 31, 2008 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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