Bucs Demote Tom Gorzelanny

by Charlie on Jul 5, 2008 4:04 PM EDT

The Pirates today optioned left-hander Tom Gorzelanny to Triple-A Indianapolis.

There was no immediate word who will replace Gorzelanny in the starting rotation. Right-hander John Van Benschoten is still with the team -– although he was rocked Wednesday for five runs in 2 1/3 innings against Cincinnati.

I don't know what's sadder--that Gorzelanny isn't pitching like a major leaguer at this point, or that it's not immediately clear that they have anyone better to replace him. Maybe Ty Taubenheim gets another shot?

In any case, maybe Gorzelanny will benefit from some work with a different pitching coach. I was struck by this bit from the Post-Gazette today:

During a sideline session before that start, Gorzelanny asked pitching coach Jeff Andrews if he should stop taking his arms over his head before beginning his delivery.

"He asked my opinion," Andrews said. "I thought there was a lot of excess movement that maybe didn't need to be there."

I'm sure I'm missing some context here, but this makes it sound like Andrews was really out of ideas. If Gorzelanny just suggests a major change to his delivery and Andrews just says "Sure," maybe Andrews isn't the best person to coach Gorzelanny right now.

There's no way to gloss over how bad Gorzelanny has been. He leads the majors in walks; he's tenth in the majors in runs allowed; his velocity is off. It's a little strange that he got sent down one start after an eight-strikeout performance against the Rays, especially since a bunch of the runs he allowed yesterday were allowed to score simply because John Russell left him in too long. But I can't really disagree that he shouldn't be in the majors right now; instead of sending him to the minors, though, I think the Pirates might consider just shutting him down for a while.

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I don't think

we see a corresponding roster move made today or tomorrow. The Pirates were going to have to create a roster spot to bring back Dumatrait Monday anyway…and Gorzo wouldn’t be available for bullpen today or tomorrow anyway. There will need to be a roster spot opened for Snell on Tuesday. Obviously…this means JVB is starting Wednesday…unless we pick up a starter between now and then.

by Thunder on Jul 5, 2008 4:23 PM EDT 0 recs

sad

and after posting such solid statistics last year… I hope something clicks for him in Indy but it frustrates me to have to say that cuz who knows…

by reft on Jul 5, 2008 4:58 PM EDT 0 recs

Past time to re-evaluate Andrews...

the supposed strength of this team coming in is horrible. Worst in baseball.

True accountability would be canning him.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 5, 2008 5:10 PM EDT 0 recs

The only way I see them firing Andrews right now

is if they bring in Rick Peterson from the Mets previous coaching staff.

by Thunder on Jul 5, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up 0 recs

couldn't hurt

by Bad Andy on Jul 5, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

I agree...

Andrews should be held accountable for the performance of our staff as the worst in NL. I’m not sure that the injuries are his fault but the fact that almost everybody is under-performing reflects negatively on Andrews. These guys can’t all be having bad seasons at the same time due to coincidence but I would not look for management to hold him accountable—especially during the middle of his first season. Just two short years ago we were believed to have the best young staff in baseball as far as unrealized potential and heads should roll. The last time I looked we has scored the third most runs in the NL but because of our starting pitching we are not even in a divisional race. Face it…Neil doesn’t know what to do about it.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 5, 2008 7:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

Charlie...

you pointed at fangraphs.com. I noticed that many of the Pirates pitchers…except for Marte and Maholm…aren’t throwing as hard this year as in past years. Most notable are Snell, Gorzo and Capps. It shouldn’t be an instrumentation issue…so it’s gotta be coaching or health.

Snell, we know has been hurt…Capps is hurt…and Gorzo…we suspect…has health issues. Gorzo in particular…appears to be throwing much fewer sliders this year than last year. Perhaps another sign that not all is well.

by Thunder on Jul 5, 2008 5:28 PM EDT 0 recs

Pirates wave white flag

Admit season is broke and they don’t know how to fix it.

by bucdaddy on Jul 5, 2008 6:46 PM EDT 0 recs

Andrews quote

It is hard to fully understand without more context, but I was struck by Gorzelanny asking a question like that. Gorz is totally screwed up and his confidence is below zero. He could be injured, but the drop in velocity could also be a mechanical issue, give his inabiltiy to throw a strike sometimes. He’s also struggled with his release point which also points to what comes before the release. I’m hoping, but not hopeful. Occam’s Razor says injury.

by azibuck on Jul 5, 2008 10:27 PM EDT 0 recs

Who was it,

me and azibuck, who pretty much called this train wreck back in March? And I’m pretty impressed with myself that I called the Dontrelle Willis disaster too.

Didn’t see Snell coming, though. But based on notebook item in the PG today, maybe we should be highly suspicious of anybody who puts in 200 innings from now on. Should 180 be the new standard now? 30 starts, six innings each, from the top five with a swing man taking the rest, every other week. Or should we just move to six-man rotations now?

Discuss.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 11:29 AM EDT 0 recs

When did this become a phenomenon?...

It seems to me( and I could be completly off base , as I have not researched it) that this was not a problem in the 70’s and 80’s. I remember pitchers reguarly exceeding 200 innings, some even throwing 300 at times.

Blyleven had a year when he completed over 20 games. Complete games were not nearly as scarce as they are now. WTH? Pitchers throwing more at a younger age, thus damaging there arms earlier? Pitch counts from liitle league on not preparing arms for logging many innings later in careers?

This topic has perplexed me for a while now, and as one of the older fans here, 200 innings just doesn’t strike me as overly excessive. Obviously the evidence DK laid out today in the PG indicates it may be .

I have no idea, but the thought of starting pitchers being expected to throw no more than 6 innings per start baffles me.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 12:31 PM EDT up 0 recs

Confirmation bias

What you don’t remember is the countless young, talented arms that were injured, ruined, and/or flamed out because they couldn’t handle the ridiculous workloads everybody thought they should have back then.

by matskralc on Jul 6, 2008 1:20 PM EDT up 0 recs

No I don't..

and I follow the game pretty closely.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up 0 recs

Non-sequitur

I don’t want to argue your point, which is probably valid, but it doesn’t really have anything to do with why many pitchers were able to handle 250 IP, consistently.

I’d like a return to the 4-man rotation, and they can even tack on a 90-pitch limit on it, make it throughout the org, and injuries might decrease. Or not. That’s the thing, some guys are just put together by God or evolution, better than others. But I think a 4-man rotation with lower pitch limits is a good idea. Your best pitchers would still get more innings, but theoretically less stress.

by azibuck on Jul 6, 2008 10:31 PM EDT up 0 recs

Look up the careers

of Gary Nolan, Don Gullett and Wayne Simpson, just to cherry-pick one team in one year.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 10:33 PM EDT up 0 recs

Don't need to...

remember them well. You obviously think the workloads are too much today, I disagree.

We can throw out random names on both sides of the argument. I have no problem with your opinion, mine is just different. ‘

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 10:50 PM EDT up 0 recs

Let's just say

I have questions about what constitutes an appropriate workload.

But I wasn’t stating an opinion with the names I mentioned. Mats wrote “What you don’t remember is the countless young, talented arms that were injured, ruined and/or flamed out …” and you wrote “No I don’t …” So I gave you three who happened to be on one team in one year, who all started out young and very very promising, put up big workloads and were finished before they were 30, with highly erratic results in between.

Another guy to check out in this regard is Bret Saberhagen. You probably remember he had an odd habit of breaking down every other year for awhile. What few of us seemed to notice at the time was that he’d pitch great for 250 innings one year and end up ineffective or hurt the next, and as a result pitch a lot fewer innings. Which would allow him to heal up enough to pitch another great 250 innings … and on it went.

Well, somebody must have started to see cause-and-effect relationships there, and - most likely with the advent of free agency, when young arms went from almost literally being a dime a dozen to being very expensive - decided it wasn’t worth trying to load 300 innings a year on multimillion-dollar arms.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 11:29 PM EDT up 0 recs

I said that because...

I don’t remember “countless” young arms ruined. Obviously there are quite a few, which I am not arguing. I fully realize that the more you throw, the more susceptible to injury your arm will be.

Just consider me skeptical that the new standard for being a staff workhorse should be averaging 6 innings in a five man rotation.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up 0 recs

Saberhagen

is the answer to a great trivia question:

Who is the only pitcher in history to have more wins (14) than walks (13) in a season (minimum innings [177.3 IP], and all that)?
.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 7, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up 0 recs

Age is a very important varialbe regarding this issue.

For starters in their early 20s even 180 innings are probably too many while many starters in their late 20s and older are able to handle 200 plus innings. For guys in the middle like Snell and Gorzo, your idea may make a lot of sense. I am not sure what the sabermaticians have to say about this issue with regard to starters in that age group.

by WestCoastBuc on Jul 6, 2008 12:31 PM EDT 0 recs

All the research says that...

Total pitches thrown for a year is not what causes problems for pitchers but rather pitching when an arm is “tired” is what leads to poor mechanics and then injuries which is why almost everybody is on a 100-pitch count. In fact, the data suggests that pitchers can throw with only 3 days rest and don’t need the additional day provided by a 5-man rotation.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Jul 6, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up 0 recs

That makes sense...

Much more than all of a sudden, after 100+ years of baseball, pitchers can no longer throw more than 180 innings per year.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

Every Sport Has Better Athletes Today

Take any professional major team or individual sport in America today and, across the board, the athletes are better.

However, for the last 30+ years, great athletes have been badly pampered as soon as they have exhibited professional potential. This pampering has been done by parents and coaches from Little League, Pop Warner, AAU on up.

There is no reason why more pitchers can’t throw 200+ innings other than the fact that, today, the players and all of their professional unions are calling the shots.

by thegunner on Jul 6, 2008 5:27 PM EDT 0 recs