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It's Tough Being a Pitcher

Without exceeding fair-use limits, it's really hard to find a blockquote for the beginning of this Post-Gazette article that explains its argument well, so I suggest you go read it. But here's a snippet:

Nineteen National League pitchers logged 200-plus innings in 2007, with Snell tied for ninth at 208 and Gorzelanny 17th with 201 2/3. The list included most of the league's top overall performers, with Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy, Aaron Harang, Carlos Zambrano, Roy Oswalt, John Smoltz, Brad Penny, Jeff Francis, Dontrelle Willis ...

Hey, seeing a pattern yet?

Right. With the sizable exception of Arizona's brilliant Webb, most either have regressed this season or, worse, have gotten hurt.

The article then points out that, among other things, 14 of those 19 have worse ERAs this year than they did last year, and eight of the 19 have already missed too much time to pitch 200 innings again this year.

The implication of the article--the author, Dejan Kovacevic, is too smart to say this outright, and he leaves it up to the reader to decide--is that pitching 200+ innings in a year leads pitchers to be worse the following year.

I wasn't too surprised by any of the numbers Kovacevic mentions. Pitchers are extremely volatile, and a guy only gets to pitch 200 innings in a year by being 1) pretty good and 2) healthy. If you take the class of pitchers who are fortunate enough to be good and healthy in an entire year, it's very likely that group, as a whole, will take a big step backward the next year. That's just regression to the mean, and it doesn't necessarily mean that pitching 200 innings, as opposed to a lower number, is the problem.

To show what I mean, let's look at the class of NL pitchers who threw between 160 and 180 innings last year. 160 to 180 innings seems to be a moderate number for a starting pitcher,  so if it's true that throwing 200+ innings is bad, this group of pitchers shouldn't have had the same problems the 200+ group had.

Here they are:

Matt Belisle
Paul Maholm
Oliver Perez
Scott Olsen
Braden Looper
Chris Young
Matt Chico
Aaron Cook
Josh Fogg
Kip Wells
Adam Eaton
Chuck James

Of these twelve players, nine have had significant injury troubles since last season ended: Belisle (forearm), Olsen (no DL, but shoulder problems in Spring Training), Looper (no DL, but shoulder surgery in the offseason), Young (face), Chico (elbow surgery), Cook (no DL, but shoulder soreness in Spring Training), Fogg (back), Wells (blood clots in hand), Eaton (no DL, but shoulder trouble in offseason), and James (shoulder).

Belisle, Perez, Young, Chico, Fogg, and James all have markedly worse ERAs than they had last year, and all of those except Young and Perez have ERAs north of 5.50. And Wells has hardly pitched at all.

Olsen and Cook have been downright good. Maholm, Looper and Eaton have been decent. But the fact remains that, as a group, these pitchers are likely to be a bunch less productive than they were last year, mostly because Belisle, Chico, Fogg and James have been so bad. And this group seems no more immune to injury than pitchers who threw 200+ innings. 

The point here is that, generally speaking, pitching 200+ innings isn't what's dangerous. What's dangerous is pitching at all. If you repeatedly try to throw a baseball 95 miles per hour, you will probably get hurt sometimes, and there will probably be some times where you don't do it as well as others. 

Obviously, I'm not suggesting that a 20-year-old should be pitching 220 innings a year in the big leagues, just that this problem involves all kinds of nuance, and there's nothing inherently worse than 210 innings as opposed to 170. That the pitchers who threw 200+ innings last year aren't having the same success this year says far more about the volatility of pitchers in general than it says about that 200-inning barrier. You can't blame the struggles of Ian Snell or Tom Gorzelanny on that.  (It is fair to wonder if Jim Tracy's overuse of Gorzelanny down the stretch last year has contributed to his problems this year, but that's a slightly different question, since all kinds of things could've happened last year that would've allowed Gorzelanny to get to 200 innings without any 117-pitch outings in meaningless games in September.) 

This all goes back to something WTM has been saying for years. Spending a bunch of first round draft picks on pitching instead of hitting is, generally speaking, a dumb thing to do. Forget the 200+ inning pitchers for a second and look again at the 160-180 inning group. In general, they didn't improve this year, even though most of them aren't old. And the reason they didn't is because pitching is just really difficult and dangerous, and a lot of pitchers will completely fail in any given year. Any team that aims to build through pitching in the same way the Pirates did is making a house of cards. 

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Good job Charlie..

This 200+ innings wall thing is just hard for a fan of 35+ years like me to grasp.

Bunch of nancy boy pitchers today should watch film of Marichel, Gibson, Blyleven, etc, etc, etc. :)

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This fan of 45+ years

recognizes that the first two pitchers you mentioned pitched in the second deadball era, when the deck was so stacked in favor of the pitcher - Everest-high mounds, big new ballparks (Dodger Stadium) replacing places with 250-foot foul lines, realigned (bigger) strike zone., hitters on greenies instead of roids, etc. - that the A.L. batting champ one year hit .301. The game itself in the ‘60s, while superficially the same, little resembles what we’ve been seeing for the past 30 years or so.

And the ‘60s aside, the innings theshhold for pitchers has been dropping almost since the game began. Walter Johnson probably thought Gibson was a nancy boy. Cy Young probably thought Johnson was a pussy.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Point taken...

That still doesn’t explain the threshold being lowered to 180 innings. I’m just searching for opinions on why. The deadball era does not fully explain why pitchers today no longer pitch over 200 innings without presumably injuring their arms.

I personally think it has a lot to do with pitch counts being much more readlly enforced from little league on. But that’s just my opinion.

Has to be more to it than the mere passage of time. Today’s players are much better athletes.
And the nancy boy comment was tongue in cheek.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There wasn't any

Little League for the first, what, 100 years of the game and the trend is still generally downward. On bb-ref you can find a list showing the innings pitched leaders for both leagues for each season, and if you graph it you will see that trend. There’s nothing recent about it, it dates back to the time when kids played on vacant lots and NYC streets, pitching tape-wrapped rocks or tennis balls. Iron Man McGinnity was putting up 400-plus inning seasons in the early 1900s. Ed Walsh threw 400+ in 1908 and 390+ in 1912—the first deadball era, BTW, when (as Mathewson wrote), guys could coast and save their best stuff for “pitching in a pinch.” That wasn’t to last much longer, and from then on, with notable freakish exceptions (Robin Roberts, guys like Trout and Newhouser and Feller in the war years, Wilbur Wood and Phil Niekro soft-tossing knuckleballs) it’s been down.

BTW, I cherry-pick those guys because they ARE exceptions, just like Gibson and Marichal in their day. The reason you chose them as examples was because they had long and notable careers; it wouldn’t make sense to choose guys who pitched 250+ innings and then blew up. Few people remember them anyway.

A couple things to add to the discussion:

Time was, in the days of 16-20 teams, young pitchers would spend their first few years in the majors pitching long relief, waiting for rotation spots to open up (and with far fewer teams and four-man rotations, there were way fewer of those). Such arms didn’t get burned in pressure situations until their arms were older and stronger to handle it. I think Nolan Ryan is an example of this. My recall is he didn’t really get started until he was 25. Of course, he turned out to be a freak anyway, but still …

The other notable thing that happened was free agency. Whereas young arms were almost entirely expendable before 1973, suddenly teams had a lot of money riding on those arms. You ran a pitcher into the ground throwing 300 innings, you ruined a multimillion-dollar investment. There was financial incentive to treat them a little better.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or, if you're the Dodgers,

...you keep on running them into the ground.

Darren Dreifort (sic?), anyone?

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST

by cocktailsfor2 on Jul 6, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you make an excellent observation..

with the final paragraph. One I haven’t previously considered.

I guess my next question would be, at what point in time will starters be expected to go no more than 5 innings? Will we see rules changes in the next 20 years that allow a starter to get a win with 4 innings pitched? And will a quality start be 5 IP 2-3 ER? Will rosters have to expand to 30 players to allow for 18 pitchers per team?

If the trend you noted continues, the workloads expected out of starters will continue to dwindle.

by Hitman Easler on Jul 6, 2008 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would expect

that at some point the rosters will expand. Probably not to 30 (the union would just love that) but maybe 26 or 27 to better accommodate the 12- and 13-man staffs we’re seeing (and you and I can probably remember when teams almost uniformly carried 10 pitchers). I think starters’ workloads WILL continue to dwindle, but let me ask this: So what? If the Pirates changed pitchers every inning every game for a season and won 95 games, would you care who got credited with the wins? A “win” is an artificial (and not very telling) construct anyway. I don’t know who arbitrarily drew the line at five innings, but it could just as easily have been four, or six.

But really, as a fan of a TEAM, what do I care who gets credit? What’s it to me if the … let’s not call him the “starter,” let’s call him the “first pitcher” ... what do I care how much he pitches? He can pitch three scoreless? Terrific. IF that’s his job. If his job is to be the second pitcher and throw three shutout innings and he does, great. Then three other guys pitch a scoreless inning each and WE pitch a shutout. When the game ends and the Pirates are ahead, what does it matter who started or who finished or who pitched in between and how much? All that’s just bean-counting. The W is the thing.

by bucdaddy on Jul 6, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The "thing" will never change

Some guys can handle 200 innings a year, every year. Some guys could handle 250, or 300. If teams go to 6-man rotations or lower innings limits, there will be a day that for some pitchers it’s not a problem, for others, it’s too many.

Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz—all perennial 200+ inning guys. Smoltz has had how many surgeries? But Maddux and Glavine? They were all on the same team, with the same coach, and I presume the same throwing program, which, by the way, was an aggressive one.

by azibuck on Jul 7, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can tell you guys

that the same thing has been happening more and more for about a decade or so in Japan, too. Even with Japanese teams only playing around 140 regular season games in roughly the same time period as the big leagues play 162, Japanese pro teams are using many more relievers now.

A Japanese starter might throw more pitches in a particular start here and there than his big league counterpart(they also have more off days and some teams have used 6-man rotations in recent years), and they most certainly throw more in practice, but the trend to use relievers from the 6th inning on is much more noticeable to me now than when I first lived here in the early `90s.

Following along with what Bucdaddy suggests, Japanese teams have a 27-man top roster, but only 24 can be active for any one game. The extra few guys are usually starting pitchers, of course, who are deactivated between starts. (Sometimes they are activated in the middle of their rest time between starts just as a last option out of the pen.)

A good idea would be for MLB to shorten the regular season a little bit-to around 150 games-and expand the big league roster to accomdate the changes in the game with regard to pitching. The first part of my suggestion won`t happen, but the second part should in the near future.

by patthatt on Jul 7, 2008 3:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes

If I were the union and I saw 100 pitchers on the DL at one time (as Collier noted the other day), I’d be raising a huge fuss for a 26th spot. That’s if the union really gave a damn about the membership.

The owners, awash in money, of course will absolutely hate the idea of having to shell out a mighty $500,000 for another arm at the back of the bullpen.

BTW, no one has mentioned expansion’s role in all of this, plus football and basketball’s role in siphoning off athletes, to where (against my own theories) I might have to argue that while there are just as many really good and durable pitchers in the game today as there have been at any other time - something like 10 borderline to lock HOF candidates were active last year, by my count (Maddux, Clemens, Unit, Pedro, Pettitte, Mussina, Smoltz, Glavine, Schilling, and of course my pet project Jamie Moyer) - there are far more immature and frankly just not very good arms than there ever were.

It’s just a numbers game. In the now-global search for talent, it’s probably a lot easier to find real hitters to stock 30 MLB teams than it is to find pitchers. So yeah, I’ve kind of danced around the fact that one reason these guys don’t pitch as much or well as the guys in the days of yore is, yes, they’re not as good. One of the tradeoffs for having MLB in Arizona and Florida.

by bucdaddy on Jul 7, 2008 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's interesting -- and the crappiest arms are at the backs of bullpens

Your mention in another thread of the Reds pitchers that burned out made me poke around bbref a bit. Gullett was also on the 1975 Big Red Machine. They had three 15-game winners, but none were really what you’d call stars. But the bullpen, wow!

Name ERA IP Games Finished

Rawly Eastwick 2.60 90.0 40
*Will McEnaney 2.47 91.0 38
Pedro Borbon 2.95 125.0 25
Clay Carroll 2.62 96.3 27

Tom Carroll and Clay Kirby were used in relief a bit, but it was mostly these four guys. Sparky Anderson scoffs at the modern notion of closer! Also interesting is that none of these guys were big strikeout guys.

Gullett was also on the 1978 Yankees. They used a bunch of relievers for less than 25 innings, plus Ken Clay for 75. But basically, this was their bullpen:

Rich Gossage 134.3 IP
Sparky Lyle 111.7 IP

Gossage averaged over 2 innings per appearance, Lyle just under that.

by azibuck on Jul 7, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that is a good idea

a 27 man roster with 24 (I would not argue with 25) active each night.
Similar to the NHL with healthy scratches.
The owners would hate this though-paying extra $ and two extra players accruing service time..

Check out my blog at thoughtsofrs@blogspot.com

by Count Vertigo on Jul 7, 2008 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There would be tradeoffs

Maybe service days wouldn’t count unless you were active. And/or a scale for 3rd and 4th year guys, so players would only get two years of arbitration. Just throwing it out. They certainly wouldn’t just go to a bigger roster, they’d ask the PA what they’re willing to trade for 60 more jobs.

by azibuck on Jul 7, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think

there would be much point in limiting it to 24 or 25 guys active since the starters who weren’t scheduled to pitch would be designated as inactive.

by WestCoastBuc on Jul 7, 2008 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They would have a bunch of pinch runners available, but that is about it.

by DITO on Jul 8, 2008 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true, throwing a baseball is a very unnatural motion

but the number of innings pitched in a year is probably only important relative to the previous year. (isn’t the CW for young pitchers that they should pitch at most 10% more innings than the year before?) recovery from injury should also be gradual, but not glacial. in addition, the mechanics/effort of a pitcher’s delivery must be factored in (e.g., Kerry Wood vs. Tim Wakefield).

a bigger problem is leaving young pitchers in the game too long (e.g., the 117-pitch Sept. outing by Gorzo mentioned above). this is especially true at the college level, where coaches make their star pitchers throw way too often. pitch counts and days of rest should be enforced in college and in at least the low minors.

I like the idea of a 27-man roster but only 24 players active. I’m not sure how well it would serve the development of younger players, but one could argue it would be useful to have a 6th starter available as needed.

by humbucker on Jul 7, 2008 12:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Keep The Roster At 25!

Part of the challenge of running a ballclub is dealing with with injuries, massaging the rosters, bringing minor leaguers up, and still competing. Why play into the hands of the union and increase the roster size?

by thegunner on Jul 7, 2008 1:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Pitching,etc.

Hmmm….Gibson and Marichal “exceptions”?!! How about,oh,Ferguson Jenkins,Gaylord Perry,Jim Perry,Dean Chance,Jim Kaat,Don Drysdale,Don Sutton,Claude Osteen,Luis Tiant,Denny McLain,Mickey Lolich,Bob Veale;that’s off the top of my head. The list could go on…............
Arm strength just doesn’t seem to be being built/developed like it used to be. As I once heard Jim Kaat say when he was a broadcast color-man,”that arm will rust out before it wears out”........

by rissaldar on Jul 7, 2008 3:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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