You articulate your point better than I could. I must agree 100% with your assessment. I still am not sold on Doumit and McClouth though. We have had too much history of one hit wonders (Freddy, Snell) to think that they are keystones to building the franchise around.

To say what we have acquired has performed terribly is an understatment. I still want to see the Big O in September, but as far as the rest of the acquisitions (sans Tabata) I am dissapointed. Could Moss be McClouthlike next year? Can we even guarantee that McClouth will be McClouthlike next year? McClouths numbers have wanned over the second half (Snell anybody) and its not like he is going to have a Bay or Nady in the lineup during next year’s first half.

As far as Doumit is concerned, he still has not been healthy an entire year. All his injuries seem to be flukes, but the flukes continue. I do not see building around someone not proven to stay healthy as a viable a strategy.

IMHO, the people to build around are still in the minors which is a scary position to be in as a franchise. This means there is no one proven at the major league level. That is what we are facing as a franchise. We can lay all the ground work we want, but we are dealing with one hit wonders, minor league journeymen and vet bench players today and in the near future. Heaven forbid we hit a few snags with our development of the few prospects we have. If a some “cant miss” misses, we could be looking at another protracted amount of losing seasons.

Is this all doom and gloom – no . The positive: The Bucs front office is doing the right things now. You dont correct 16 losing seasons with a few deadline trades and a good draft. We are in a 3-4 year process of turning into a contender – that is the bottom line.

It wouldnt be so hard to take this third rebuild if we havent already been promised this by two other regimes (remember when PNC Park would usher in World Series titles). Of course the Bucs management is getting it right now, but there will be hiccups and we all know about the “best laid plans of mice and men….”. Sorry – I have to be Missouri on this topic. I have been overpromised and under delivered too many times.

“At the risk of incurring the wrath of ElliotBayBucco, I must ask the question as to whether this current roster really has any talent.”

Well, you and your boy Gunner wanted the team dismantled-i.e. your TRADE, TRADE, TRADE! tirades-so you got what you wanted. I think most of the rest of us knew that once big pieces of the drive for #75 team were traded away, that it would be rough going for a good while. The team isn`t any good now. So what? The most important thing is to watch how certain individuals progress or regress during September.

“The LaRoche brothers are both busts.”

Adam is doing pretty much what we know he is capable of at the plate and in the field. He is not as good as we had hoped, but he is still better than anything else at present.
Do you wish we could go back and trade Gonzalez for Melky Cabrera? Yeah, that would have been better.

I don`t see any reason to pass any sort of judgment on Andy LaRoche til he`s had an extended period of injury-free playing time with the Bucs. Come back to this issue at the All-Star break next year. Calling him a “bust” now is way too soon.

“Added to that, our two best starters from last year (Snell and Gorzo) are among the 5 worst pitchers in all of baseball when you compare ERAs.”

Tell us something we don`t know, IPF. Let`s see how they finish this year, and then what kind of start they get off to next year, especially paying attention to their velocity and command in the spring, before calling for their heads.

“Then, combine the fact that not one player acquired from Boston and New York has performed acceptably to the general consensus that we have the least amount of minor league talent in all of baseball and one doesn’t see a pretty picture.”

But you and Herrera-lovin` Gunner called for TRADES!!! and now you`re whining and cryin` cause we didn`t get Cy Young or Hank Aaron.

IPF: riddles, riddles, riddles….

Granted – a half doesnt dictate good players (look at Adam LaRoche) or maybe a year for that matter.

My question is how can you say Doumit and McClouth are keystones based on this year, when you have the Snells/Gorzos/Sanchezs last year?

I responded to something you wrote about Snell and Gorzo and you respond with a hazy geography lesson and the fortunes of the St. Louis and Chicago(NL) franchises?

Strange, strange, strange…and that`s before you get into Mickey, Yount, salesmanship and whatever the heck else you want to spout off about.

“Like the poster of the vulture looking down on a flock of birds says: "Patience my ass. I want to kill something now!"”

You are a strange bird, IPF.

is that the truth is not strengthened by exaggeration. The argument you are making is certainly tenable but why make stuff up to support it? Moss is not hitting under .200 as you claim, he is at .247 with an OPS+ of 109 since joining the Pirates – not bad at all for a 24 year old. Or to wave your hands and cliam that Adam Laroche is a bust is just silly. He started poorly again this year but has played very well for quite awhile now, bringing his OPS + up to 115.

“I didn’t intentionally exaggerate Moss’ stats…I just didn’t look them up. Either way, my point is still valid…”

Nice work, IPF.

You want Pearce at 1B instead of Adam LaRoche? Why?
McCutchen is NOT READY to play in the majors yet which is the reason he has not been recalled and will probably not be recalled in September. Got it yet?
Walker has not played well enough at Indy to merit a promotion either, IPF. He and Cutch are at Indy to develop. O.K.???
Many of us want Duke out of the rotation. Tell us something we don`t know, IPF.

just to mosey on behind the plate and spell Doumit when he is tired? After not even catching in the minors for two years, let alone even being able to perform at the MLB level???

“I want someone hired that can explain to me the problems with Snell and Gorzo.”

What is this supposed to mean?

“I understand that management believes our young players are not ready but I don’t care about that because minor league stats are often misleading.”

Huh? You know something they don`t, IPF?

“I want them brought up now to showcase their talent and give us and indication of how they might perform in the future.”

Bring them up too soon and the only thing they`ll showcase is that they are minor league-level players at present, and you risk screwing up their development.

“Without them we are guaranteed of another last-place finish.”

Huh? We are almost already guaranteed a last place finish. So what? You think Cutch and Walker would do something to change this?

No winning year in 2008 and 2009. All we have to cling to is hope that this plan will work. While it is better than other plans, I still disagree with all of you that we have viable keystones to build around at the MLB level. All we have are one year wonders, projections and track record in the minors. Of course we have to have hope and we have to identify somebody; but it is FALLACY to say we have KEYSTONES.

If McClouth and Doumit have similar numbers this time next year, then OK; but you cant say they are keystones today. They are our best options today and they are not blocking anybody, but remember last year we said that Gorzo and Snell were the keystones of our staff. Yes Gorzo and Snell are having down years, but I would hardly use the term “keystone” for players that had to spend 2 months in the minor leagues and someone who has slumped for 1.5 years.

Bottom line – 2010 is wishful

I would like to think that, given the at least half dozen times it has happened, you would take your cues from the following scenario:

Step 1: You pose some roster move, player evaluation, etc in the form of a diary or comment.

Step 2: At least a dozen other commenters absolutely rail on you and use very valid evidence, sometimes evidence better than your own, to completely obliterate whatever logic existed in your idea.

You can not simply blow up a roster. The changes you suggest are an attempt to accomplish the following:

1) Improve the apparent talent level of the current 25-man roster
2) Subsequently improve the ability of the current MLB team to win games

Your ideas, while nice, have the following flaws:

1) At least some, if not a large majority of them, are based only loosely in fact (for instance, not bothering to look up Moss’ stats, which would have shown you that he is not hitting for a great average, but he is by no means performing poorly).
2) Your moves are not logical. You cannot simply clear the bench of a bunch of players – most of whom are infielders and who have shown that they are both offensively and defensively competent at those positions in at least limited exposure – and replace them with a nother bunch of players – most of whom are outfielders and have not yet proven that they can consistently be offensively and defensively competent at even the AAA level, let alone the ML level.

Making those changes not only would not in any way improve the odds of the team winning games, but also run the risk of stunting the growth of several prospects (regardless of exactly how good those prospects are) who are clearly not ready for the major leagues yet.

Even if they did, by some absolute miracle, manage to handle regular major league duty (the odds of a player who has never been above AA succeeding at MLB – very low…the odds of a player with a career .220ish average above AA succeeding at MLB – very low) and improve the team’s ability to win games, it is utterly irrelevant whether this team wins 65 games or 75 games – this year, next year, and beyond. There are only two levels of win totals. Good enough to contend, and not. We are in the latter for the forseeable future no matter what roster changes we try to make.

all over again, IPF.

all of the examples you cite as coming up in their early 20’s and ‘werent permanently scarred’ and ‘helped the team earlier’…

Joe Mauer – considered a super-elite prospect from the day he was drafted. came up at 21 because he was absolutely pounding the ball in the minors (.331 avg .831 ops in only 285 AB’s) and didnt really have anybody blocking him in the system.

Prince Fielder – also considered super-elite from the get go. also smacked the crap out of the ball (.297 avg and .922 ops in 448 AB’s) and was brought up because the only thing in his way was the tradeable lyle overbay.

 Delmon Young – ALSO considered super-elite. ALSO smacked the crap out of the ball (.317 avg and .880 ops in 353 AB’s) and brought up because there was nobody blocking him.

NONE of the players in our system – except He Who Is Holding Out – are even in that ballpark talentwise, so those three are useless comparisons.

 Robinson Cano and Jose Reyes – international undrafted FA’s because of their potential at a young age, moved up through the system despite modest numbers, maybe those are decent comparisons.

Miguel Cabrera – undrafted FA, modest numbers, was promoted in 03 because he was suddenly CRUSHING the ball in AA ball and the Marlins had no better internal options for a 3B/OF upgrade (aka nobody blocking him)

Jeff Francoeur – considered a very good, though perhaps not elite prospect, came up at 21 because he was hitting well in the minors and….because…there was nobody blocking him

Grady Sizemore – wasnt originally considered a top notch prospect, but eventually came up to CLE at 21 because he was hitting well and there wasnt truly anybody blocking him

I KNOW you’re smart enough to see the pattern here. SO what about our own guys? Well, obviously, Nate is the only reasonably entrenched starter, which means there is no blockage going on in the outfield…

McCutchen – NOT smacking the crap out of the ball at AAA
Walker – Ditto.
Pearce – Ditto, but will probably be back up anyway.
Tabata – IS smacking the crap out of the ball at AA, I might actually seriously consider giving him a September callup, but he’ll probably head to Arizona instead.

It is way to soon to assess any of these guys. More important, many of asked for them to blow it up and start over again, and we got our wish. None of those who asked for that should be under any illusion that this will be fast or pretty. This painful exercise should have been undertaken years ago. We waited far too long, and it is going to hurt like hell for a while. It is what it is. They did the right thing, and they need to keep doing it.