Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Uga VII, Requiescat in Pace: A Tribute to a Damn Good 'Dawg

Pirates Suffer 10th Straight Loss; Brewers Challenge Bucs' Only Hit

I guess it's not Jeff Karstens' fault that the Pirates can't hit anymore, or that the Pirates' bullpen stinks. If Tyler Yates is taken to arbitration this offseason, I'll be deeply disappointed; he can't be counted on for anything. On the bright side--and you have to be looking pretty hard to find one--Karstens only walked one batter and left the game having allowed only one earned run (Yates let two of Karstens' baserunners come in). And Andy LaRoche had a hit in his second consecutive start. Well, sort of. The Brewers are appealing it. Unfortunately, it was the Pirates' only hit. But at least it isn't a no-hitter! Yet! Yikes.

UPDATE: The Brewers' appeal seems totally reasonable to me. No, it doesn't have anything to do with whether they go to the playoffs or not, but a no-hitter is a rare accomplishment, and I think it's fair for the Brewers to do what they can to see that CC Sabathia ends up with one, especially since the call was borderline to begin with. It looked to me like Sabathia could have gotten LaRoche if he hadn't dropped the ball.

The real problem, it seems to me, is that the "error" is just a stupid category, and it shouldn't be left to scorekeepers to decide whether pitchers get no hitters, or whether runs are earned or unearned. Pitchers are affected by errors that they don't control (and, as this case shows, errors they make themselves), but they're also affected by other defensive inconsistencies that they also don't control. The performance of the Brewers' staff this year is a good example. Part of their improvement in runs allowed compared to last season has to do with the addition of Sabathia and a couple other pitchers, but the biggest difference is probably the improvement of their defense. And yet the scorekeepers don't account for that; they didn't give the 2007 Brewers allowances for the fact that Ryan Braun was a terrible third baseman, unless he made an error. They don't give the 2008 Astros pitchers allowances for Carlos Lee's horrible defense--unless, again, he makes an error.

Why should scorekeepers dispense errors, then? Why should they be allowed to reconstruct innings to distinguish between earned and unearned runs? These calls are highly subjective, they don't tell us much that more sophisticated defensive metrics (or just plain watching the games) can't tell us better, and more often than not they're like when you're watching a hockey game and the camera can't find the puck. When you're watching hockey, you don't want to be aware that the camera exists. You suspend your disbelief, and believe instead that the cameras are your eyes.

Error calls can be similar, in that they draw the viewer's attention to the scaffolding rather than the stage. You don't want to be aware that the scorekeeper exists; you want him or her to make a record of what happened, not to be what happened.

All of which is to say that in my perfect world, LaRoche's dribbler would be a hit. But, given that the "error" rule has forced the scorekeeper out of the booth and into the spotlight, I think it's perfectly legit for the Brewers to challenge their decision. Personally, though, I think it would be nice if we just talked about the game, rather than decisions that have been made about it.

0 recs  |  Comment 28 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Do we really need one more embarrassment ?

We’ve lost ten straight games, we’re in last place, our best two hitters play in the American League and we’ve “signed” our number one draft pick but he won’t show up to work. Do the Brewers really need this too ? Ted Yost wanted to tell his grandchildren about this and he’s upset that the Buc’s official scorer has taken this from him. Would you really want to brag to your grandchildren that your team no hit the 2008 Pirates ? I think the response might be, " What CC didn’t pitch underhand ? "

by Ketcham Bruce on Aug 31, 2008 7:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

amen

I really don’t understand what the Brewers have to gain from this. It seems a bit petty.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Aug 31, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree.

it’s actually a perfect time for them to say

it’s just about winning games and making the playoffs. CC pitched a phenomenal game whether or not he should have fielded that ball cleanly. maybe he can throw a no-hitter next time.

of course, teams often like feeling like underdogs and this puts them in that role, sort of

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 31, 2008 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm a Brewers fan

First of all, both announcing teams, TV and radio, harped on the play and its scoring for the rest of the game, which I’m sure served to enable the fanbase. Even without that though, as great a year as it’s been so far, the Brewers haven’t actually accomplished anything yet, an a no-hitter would be Big News, something to treasure and cherish and tell your kids about and all that other romantic stuff.

BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"

by battlekow on Aug 31, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, FWIW

I just put up a poll on BCB asking whether people thought it was a hit or not, and if they didn’t, whether they thought it should be changed.

BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"

by battlekow on Aug 31, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

“something to treasure and cherish and tell your kids about and all that other romantic stuff.”

Are parents really going to tell their kids about a no-hitter that happened in 2008? Are people in Minnesota telling their kids about Eric Milton’s no-no? Are SF grandparents telling their grandkids about John Montefusco?

by bolton on Sep 1, 2008 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know. If you were at the game, you might.

by Charlie on Sep 1, 2008 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True -- though I doubt there were many Brewer fans in Pittsbugh

Battlekow’s comment just made me think about how many games enter our memories and then evaporate — even the supposedly memorable ones. It’s hard to remember details, let alone pass them down through the generations. If C.C. had thrown a no-hitter, I’d probably forget about it by 2010, and certainly wouldn’t pass the memory down to whatever kids I might father. The controversy over the LaRoche single might actually make the game more memorable. Ask me five years from now.

BTW Charlie, I agree with what you say about errors. Any ball that stays in the park and doesn’t result in an out can be viewed as a failure of the defense, whether it’s due to limited range, poor positioning or the old-fashioned error.

by bolton on Sep 1, 2008 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, actually

BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"

by battlekow on Sep 1, 2008 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s a Brewers blogger that agrees with you.

BCB's "very own marginally deserving all-star!"

by battlekow on Aug 31, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should have been an error

It was a dribbler to mound, CC picks it up and throws to first for the out. Except… he dropped the ball. That’s an error and a homer scoring decision if you ask me.

It’s actually more embarrassing the way it turned out. Now, it looks like the home-town scorer gave the Pirates a pity hit – instead of the Bucs having to earn one.

by EStreet on Aug 31, 2008 8:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Could have, should have....

wasn’t. I think it Yost looks like a horse’s ass for his comments. If the play happened in the 9th inning I would be right along side everyone crying foul. But it wasn’t in the 9th it was in the middle of the game. For people to sit here and think that CC necessarrily would have handled the later innings the exact same way knowing a no hitter is at sake is nonsense and the fact is we never will know what could have happened so a protest is ridiculous. If you want to argue this is one for the record books that the error should be over turned and the game should be restarted from that point forward so we know what the outcome will be. How crazy does that sound? Well, about as crazy as manager protesting the league to overturn a call to give his pitcher a no hitter which last time I checked will not get the Brewers any closer to the division title than they are right now. This is pure nonsense!!!

by Slick1 on Aug 31, 2008 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Slick1

"For people to sit here and think that CC necessarrily would have handled the later innings the exact same way knowing a no hitter is at sake is nonsense and the fact is we never will know what could have happened so a protest is ridiculous. "

Nice post, Slick. You are right on the money with your comments.

by patthatt on Sep 1, 2008 7:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On a brighter note...

Tabata is tearing the cover off the ball since coming off the disable list. He was 3-5 tonight with another home run. It looks as if his power may be returning a bit. This strong finish just could return him to a top prospect status.

by Slick1 on Aug 31, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He had 2 SB as well.

Really showing flashes of that 5 tool talent.

by Slick1 on Aug 31, 2008 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tabata

Return him to top prospect status???? He’s definitely the #1 prospect in the entire Pi rate system and has been ever since the trade was made. Let’s just hope that the Pirates know what they have and don’t screw him up.

by thegunner on Sep 1, 2008 12:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Jose Tabata is

“definitely the #1 prospect in the entire Pirate system….”

Maybe, maybe not.

“Let’s just hope that the Pirates know what they have and don’t screw him up.”

I bet they will do just fine with him, and Tabata seems rejuvenated since getting out of the Yankee system. Let`s hope for the best.

by patthatt on Sep 1, 2008 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Errors are silly

This play especially highlights how silly the “error” statistic really is as it pertains to pitchers. It was Sabathia’s fault that LaRoche didn’t get put out on the play. If LaRoche had hit a roller down the 3B line that the third baseman gets a bad break on, it reflects poorly on Sabathia. But if Sabathia fails to properly field his position as he did, it is somehow better? What?

by wickethewok on Sep 1, 2008 12:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I’ve always thought it was weird that a pitcher takes himself off the hook for earned runs by committing an error himself.

Also, the “error” is weird because it’s so vague. Let’s say somebody hits a foul popup next to first base, an easy play for LaRoche, and he drops it. The scorer can, in fact, rule an error. Then the batter strikes out. So the net result of the error is: nothing. Meanwhile, Nyjer Morgan can (and by “can” I mean “is fully capable of”) turn a routine fly into a four-base error that scores four runs, but goes into the books in the same category as LaRoche’s drop. And in neither case does it describe the action. If you just look in the box score you have no idea what happened. I mean, you see this: “3B—McLouth” and you have a pretty good idea that Nate hit a ball in a gap somewhere. You can visualize outfielders scrambling, relay guys setting up, Nate racing around second, the third base coach giving it the “Slide!!!” sign. But what does “error” tell you? You can’t tell if it’s fielding or throwing, whether the ball was hit in the air or on the ground … it says virtually nothing.

As Charlie says, stupid.

BTW, can anyone here remember the particulars of the game someone pitched back in the day — I want to say Bruce Kison — where a scorer’s call cost a possible no-hitter and the pitcher shook his fist or gave the finger to the scorer from the field? It led to the Pittsburgh papers’ decision not to allow their reporters to double as official scorers.

by bucdaddy on Sep 1, 2008 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve always thought it was weird that a pitcher takes himself off the hook for earned runs by committing an error himself.

Because earned runs are supposed to be a reflection of a pitcher’s pitching ability without having fielding miscues as part of that reflection.

by EStreet on Sep 1, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Charlie's point

is that “fielding miscues” encompasses WAY more than just “errors”. I think it’s funny that bucdaddy talks about a triple: nowadays, almost every single triple in MLB is the result of an outfielder getting a bad break, or diving and missing the ball. You know: fielding miscues. But errors aren’t often given for those. Which is, to paraphrase Charlie, ridiculous.

by matskralc on Sep 1, 2008 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which isn’t to say I think errors SHOULD be given for those. I also think that errors should be completely done away with. EVERY event in a baseball game is the result of an “error” by somebody. There is NO good reason why some errors should be pointed out and cause us to treat the game differently and others shouldn’t.

by matskralc on Sep 1, 2008 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

official scorers

Are a joke in the Majors nowadays. I’m a Mets fan, and Keith Hernandez is always ripping on the scorers for being way to generous these days.

That said, I think you have to give a hit on that ball that C.C. dropped. I’ve seen that play 1,000 times this year alone and it’s always a hit. Most of the time it’s on a slow-roller to the third baseman, who tries to bare-hand it and either bobbles it or misses the ball completely. But it’s ALWAYS a hit.

So while I agree that official scoring is a joke these days, I don’t see what the big deal was on today’s call.

by Doc's Sports Predictions Guy on Sep 1, 2008 3:27 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

E

Would you consider over-sliding a base and being tagged out as an error?

by Kekiongas on Sep 1, 2008 9:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Errors are a fielding statistic.

by EStreet on Sep 1, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's No Crying In Baseball ...

…but there are errors. An error is a play that, in most instances, should be made; however, in the particular instance, the play is NOT made. That is in ERROR. There are physical errors (as above) and there are mental errors. Mental errors are usually not scored, but they are often much more costly than physical errors.

by thegunner on Sep 1, 2008 12:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

E's

Exactly Gunner, every home run a pitcher gives up is an error.

by Kekiongas on Sep 1, 2008 2:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way . . .

Ned Yost is pure “Bush League”.

by Kekiongas on Sep 1, 2008 2:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

101_0170_small
40-Man Moves
18470r_small
Rule 5 possibilities
20080124sgrammy_330_small
Small Market Teams Pocketing Spare Change
Small
Jeebus Cracker
Small
McCutchen's defense
Small
Roberto calling
20090612mf_fleury_cup_500hp_small
Pirates would trade Doumit!
Leo4_small
John Sickels' Comments on Donnie Veal
Pitt20_small
LaRoche to the Phils?
Bloody_mary_small
Ohlendorf Blogging: USDA can't keep him "down on the farm."

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Mariners Eyeing Doumit
Tabata 5-5 w/3 Ribbies - Hitting .390 @ EOS
Bay rejects $60M over 4 years
"[Chase D'Arnaud] does everything well enough," said an American League...
Pirates hire Steve Williams as Major League scout
Jim Tracy, Baby! NL Manager of the Year!
2009 Minor League Six-Year Free Agent Listing
NL Rookie of the Year: Chris Coghlan
2010 CHONE Projections
2010 UZR Projections

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SPONSORS


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie