Pedro Alvarez Hearings Likely to Drag on Forever

by Charlie on Sep 10, 2008 9:54 PM EDT Comment 47 comments

Ugh. Looks like there's no way Pedro Alvarez will play winter ball.

[Bud] Selig finished his testimony, though [Labor lawyer Dan] Halem will continue in his when the hearing picks back up on Sept. 23, which was the earliest date that [arbitrator Shyam] Das had available to return to the case. Das will be available to hear arguments on Sept. 24 as well, though beyond that, the hearing will be postponed until October.

The Union has an extensive witness list still to work through, including players and other management officials. After that, MLB can then call its additional witnesses.

As a result, this entire process -- which will include all the testimony, a time for both sides to file written briefs and a period for Das to write his binding decision -- is not likely to be wrapped up anytime soon.

"My hope that this hearing might end in two days is not looking very good," Pirates president Frank Coonelly said.

This looks like it won't be over until early October at least. This is extremely frustrating.

I also wonder if Major League Baseball might be caught off guard a bit by the degree to which the union is prepared. Coonelly hoped this process would take two days, but it looks like it will take far, far longer than that.

Thanks to cocktailsfor2 for the link.

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The MLBPA

Can anyone tell me when the MLBPA has EVER lost to the owners?

Why wouldn’t they be well-prepared?

by thegunner on Sep 10, 2008 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

thegunner poses an excellent question:

I’m still astonished by the fact that the owners were found guilty of collusion not once, not twice, but on three different occasions with fines totalling almost $400 million dollars! Who was their lead attorney…Marcia Clarke? Is there any wonder what the outcome of the Alvarez case is going to be? The only questions left to be answered are how much the owners will be fined and how the current system of deadlines will be dismantled. The owners are both greedy and stupid and that is a dangerous combination. Sure, the MLBPA are also greedy, but they have one huge advantage over the owners…they’re not stupid and neither is Boras.

If this mess gets settled favoring Boras then we must begin to question the abilities of FC since he was Senior VP in charge of arbitration hearings and draft bonuses in the Commissioner’s Office. If he represents the best legal mind of the owners, then it’s a slam-dunk for the players when he goes up against Boras.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 11, 2008 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Boras does not equal MLBPA

MLB has lost some big ones to the union. On the important cases with Boras, MLB has generally won. As Vlad says, this Boras the All-Powerful stuff has gotten way out of hand. This is not Boras’ grievance, it’s the union’s. Their interests aren’t the same and the notion that Boras is directing the union’s actions is a myth. All of the knowledgeable commentary I’ve seen has said that by far the likeliest outcome is a win for the union but not for Boras.

by WTM on Sep 11, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was pretty much

going to point out the same thing: The owners’ record against the union is terrible. They go into every negotiation believing they can just dictate terms and they get slapped down every time. The baseball players have the best sports union, by far, period, which is why Marvin Miller belongs in the Hall and why he will never get there.

by bucdaddy on Sep 11, 2008 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This isn't nearly as serious as collusion

By colluding, the owners deprived players of hundreds of millions of dollars – hence, the hundreds of millions of dollars in fines to make good the loss.

Since there’s no substantial injury to the players here, then IF the Union is able to win (not a given), the remedy will correspondingly be much milder. There would probably be a determination that MLB can no longer give extensions, and Alvarez and Hosmer might or might not be sent back into the draft next year (with us and KC receiving comp picks).

People who are seeing this as some kind of master plan by Boras are giving him too much credit. He tried to shake the team down for a little extra money, and when they told him to pound salt and went public, it all went out of his hands. He’s been working hard to spin it ever since, but that’s not the same thing as having it under control.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Vlad

I agree with most of what you said with the exception that I believe Boras isn’t doing this in an attempt to spin the outcome and deflect criticism away from himself but rather he’s doing it because he sincerely believes that it gives the owners an advantage which he wants removed. If you examine the entire process it does appear that they have an advantage if they can unilaterally extend the deadline without giving Boras the authority to do the same power and I fully expect the arbiter to agree. I really believe he’s doing this because it would help him in the future and I am confident he will win the removal of deadlines. I do not have an opinion as to whether he can get Alvarez’s contract voided. That is beyond my capabilities.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 11, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Removal of deadlines

I assume you mean removal of extensions.

If not, leaving aside the problem that the arbitrator’s job is to enforce bargaining agreements rather than invalidate them, keep in mind that there’s always been a deadline. It just used to be later, a week before the next draft. Some deals went right down to the wire under that deadline, too, although not as many as now. Boras wouldn’t want there to be no deadline. That would mean a team had signing rights to a drafted player forever.

by WTM on Sep 11, 2008 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree... i think

it’s certainly out of boras’ hands at this point. no disputing that, but i think this clusterf^ck is exactly what he wanted to happen. he doesn’t need to be in control, now he can just sit back and say “this is what happens when i don’t get what i want.” i don’t think that’s spin. to me it looks like bargaining power. he doesn’t care about another $200,000 this year, he cares about the compounding millions this could net him and his clients if it manages to change some teams’ approaches in the draft.

as an organization devoid of talent and facing the nightmare of a recent history that makes them the LA clippers of baseball (wait, that’s unfair to the clippers, who made the playoffs a few years ago), this is a huge blow to the pirates. they need players like alvarez NOW, not in a few months when this is resolved or worse, in next year’s draft when we’ve wasted an entire year of developing a top prospect. once again, the pirates are sh*t upon.

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He shot himself in the foot, though.

Boras doesn’t want an early deadline, and if the union wins, then all that’ll happen is that the current deadline will become fixed instead of mobile. Boras has had top clients like Hosmer and Borbon sign big deals during extensions, and it’ll be harder for him to engage in lucrative brinksmanship like that in the future if the deadline becomes rigid.

As such, I really have a hard time seeing this as a desirable outcome from his point of view.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vlad --- I made a mistake, believe it or not!

You will not be in charge of Nyjer Morgan. That assignment is going to Hitman Easler who will be charged with both teaching Nyjer how to utilize and harness his speed and also to carry his water.

by thegunner on Sep 11, 2008 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Pirates should have...

picked someone other than Alvarez. It appears more and more that they got that wrong,too.

by rissaldar on Sep 11, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

no

alvarez was, by almost all accounts the best player available in the draft. with beckham off the board, he was the undisputed best pick at that position. if they would have picked someone else, it would have been based not on talent but on (everyone say it with me) signability, which is a word i can’t even type without it giving me the urge to punch dave littlefield and anyone sitting near him in the groin.

how did they get it wrong? the ensuing fracas was allegedly caused by MLB’s practice of extensions, though i’m too cynical to believe boras’ objection had nothing to do with money or his reputation.

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The ML has beaten MLBPA in the past

And with a Scot Boras client to boot. Anyone remember the J.D. Drew fiasco?

Philly announced in 1997 they were going to draft Drew & Boras demanded a $10M signing bonus (Kris Benson had got a $2.5M signing bonus by the PBC in 1996). Philly laughed, but Boras had put him in an independent league (St. Paul Saints) a week before the draft and claimed he was a free agent, not eligible for the draft because MLB rules said you couldn’t draft anyone who had “signed a professional baseball contract.”

MLB changed its rules to provide that playing in an indy league did not cause Philly to lose its rights to draft Drew. MLBPA took the league to arbitration, claiming MLB couldn’t unilaterally change the rules governing the draft without meet and confer and agreement by the union (sound familiar anyone?).

The arbitrator technically ruled in favor of the union (in May of 1998, so these things do take forever), But since Drew wasn’t a union member, the arbitrator said he had no jurisdiction to create a remedy (Boras was demanding free agency under the rule as it was wrtten the day of the draft). The arbitrator sent the matter of Drew’s status to be determined by the MLB Executive Council — which is the Commissioner and 8 owners he appoints personally. The ruled that Drew was not a free agent.

There was no August 15 midnight rule in 1997. Drew went back into the draft and St. Louis picked him. in 1998 He is still boo’ed in Philly to this day.

When Coonley and MLB talk about “lack of jurisdiction” or “clear precedent” on their side, this is the decision trhey are pointing to. The MLB got away with changing the rules of the draft, even though the draft is a matter for collective bargaining, because the aggrieved player (Drew) was not a member of the union covered by the collective bargaining agreement.

by WstCstBucco on Sep 11, 2008 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not the only Drew case

Boras also tried to get Drew declared a FA by arguing the Phillies hadn’t sent him a contract. The Phillies sent it to Drew’s parents’ address, which is the address Drew himself listed on the draft card that prospects fill out. Boras argued the contract should have been sent to Drew at college. He also engaged in shenanigans like having the contract returned as undeliverable by one of Drew’s coaches when the Phillies did send it to him in college. The arbitrator ruled against Drew.

by WTM on Sep 11, 2008 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right but

that was part of a separate (but quite successful) Boras scam. Under the old rules, teams had 15 days to tender a contract, any contract. In 1996 4 of the top 12 draftees were declared free agents because the teams just forgot. Travis Lee got a $10M contract with Ariz. because of this screw up.

By 1997, the MLB had changed this 15 day rule, so Boras had to to try a new scam as WTM notes. Boras hid J.D. Drew and claimed that he never got any contract from the Philies at all. The arbitrator ruled that the team had sent the contract to the address Drew himself had designated before the draft and that was good enough.

Boras loves to try old tricks again and again. JD Drew was really just a replay of the Jason Varitek scam of the prior year.

Drew was a total fiasco, and I don’t blame Philadephia baseball club for washing their hands of him and Boras. Drew’s totally underwhelming career — about a 20 HR, 70 RBI per year average and OPS in the .890’s over 10 ML seasons — shows up Boras claims that everyone of his clients is the next Barry Bonds/Babe Ruth/Cy Young.

Alvarez better watch out — I don’t see him as the no. 2 draftee next year. And if the arbitration schedule goes haywire, he could miss another 1/2 year of development in the minor leagues, delaying his rookie season in Pgh until 2011 and putting his free agency year one more year out.

by WstCstBucco on Sep 11, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boras actually sandbagged one of the teams. Might have been Minnesota, but I’m not sure. He told the team that the player was busy with a tournament that he was in (world championships or something) and had no time to negotiate for a few weeks. The team didn’t bother sending a contract for exactly that reason.

Critical point, though, is that Boras finds the occasional loophole and mines it for all it’s worth, but the loophole always gets closed. He’s never succeeded in his #1 goal, which is to undermine the draft. He always loses on the far-reaching issues.

by WTM on Sep 11, 2008 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The PBC interested in a Japanese Pitcher???

Checking out MLB Trade Rumors and ran across this post.

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 11, 2008 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

it's a nice thought

but why on earth would he want to play for the pbc?

another link: dj gallo reiterates all of the terrible, terrible reasons why the pirates are so… terrible. i’m out of adjectives at this point.

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If we offer the most money...

…then he’ll play here. The A’s got the top Latin signing of the year that way, so there’s no reason why we can’t, if we like the kid.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we both know

the chances of that happening.

even if we did pony up the cash, why would he want to play for a team that is all but guaranteed to lose 90 games again?

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why should he care about that?

He’s a prospect, not some 30-year-old veteran. He’s going to need money since this is his first real contract, and if he goes out of his way to sign with a good team, there’s no guarantee that they’ll still be good when he’s ready in 3-4 years anyway. A bad team might actually make MORE sense for him, since he’d theoretically have more (and earlier) opportunities at the ML level.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahh

i didn’t realize he was so young. that does change things.

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, that's why this is a big deal

It could create problems between MLB and NPB if he ducks through a loophole in the transfer agreement the way it looks like he’s going to do.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Vlad

I don`t really see this as finding a “loophole” in MLB/NPB agreements like Nomo did by “retiring” from NPB in 1995. As an amateur player, Tazawa has a right to sign a pro contract anywhere in the world that he likes. The real controversy is that the Japanese see a guy who would have probably been the top pick in their next draft going to the U.S. without ever doing any service time here. If they start to lose more of the precious few top amateur prospects annually, the future will be grim for NPB-if it is not already.

The overall level of talent in the game is going down in my opinion, and has been for a number of years now. This is not simply attributable to the half dozen or so top Japanese plying their trade in MLB in recent years, either. I`m not sure what is, of course, and everybody has their own thinking on the issue.

The depth has not been there in recent HS baseball summer competitions, either.

I thought I saw a good bit of “AAAA baseball” in the `90s and earlier this decade. I can tell you that what I`ve seen the past few years is definitely minor league overall.

I posted some other thoughts on Tazawa in my C.J. Nitkowski blog before I realized you guys had this discussion.

The Pirates finally made some big signings in Latin America this year. Let`s see what they will do next in Asia.

by patthatt on Sep 13, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

We both KNEW the chances of that happening

when Littlefield was at the wheel of the S.S. Fiasco. Now, who knows if these guys will pony up the cash? They spent it on the draft this year, why not spend it abroad?

Why wouldn’t he want to play in Pittsburgh?

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 11, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

perhaps

if they don’t end up spending $6 million on alvarez they could come up with the cash. does anyone know how much tazawa is looking for?

why wouldn’t he want to play here? we’re cheap, not any good, have a record of destroying minor league pitchers’ arms and completely bereft of national exposure. that is our current reputation and hopefully not our continued course. we couldn’t even lure johnny effing estrada. if you were tazawa and you had the chance to play for an organization like the braves for similar money, why would you chose the pirates?

by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why choose the Pirates?

Well, if nothing else, the Pirates have had a Japanese player in the past (and treated him fairly well), while the Braves never have. Showing that you can handle the logistics of the situation counts for something. Especially when you factor in Atlanta’s troubled history with race.

I think a lot of your objections are overblown. If we’re paying market for him, then we aren’t being cheap. The crappy ML team just means sooner/more opportunities for him in the majors. Our minor league pitchers’ injuries are more bad luck than bad coaching/management (and all American coaching will look soft as a feather bed to a Japanese player in any event). National exposure shouldn’t matter much to a Japanese player, since Japan will cover him regardless of what the American media does. As for Johnny Estrada, I don’t think he and Tazawa are tight, so who gives a shit what Estrada thinks?

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Most of your reasons are based on the Littlefield regime,

I’ll reserve my opinion on the new crew in a couple of years.

Johnny Effing Estrada… how long did he last with the Nationals until they cut his A$$!

Kuwata is viewed as a baseball idol in Japan. Who knows if he might have a positive impact on getting the kid to consider Pittsburgh?

Also, I know that a few Japanese FA’s have passed on Seattle because they didn’t want to play second fiddle to Ichiro. He would be the one and only here in the ’Burgh!

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 11, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

most of my reasons are based on the littlefield regime

that’s true. but new management or not, that’s the recent history of this franchise and if i were a free agent or prospect, i would stay the hell away from here until clearly proven otherwise.

maybe i’m wrong. i hope i am. this time of year, it’s pretty easy to be down on the pirates. other reasons aside (valid or invalid), i just don’t see us playing at the high stakes table with the rest of that list. maybe they’ll surprise me and open the purse strings, in which case let’s say i’ll owe you both a drink.

by johnnycuff on Sep 12, 2008 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looking at the names of the teams in it for this kid,

I don’t like the odds of them bringing him here. Seeing that they are in the mix for him gives me hope that they are willing to jump in the pool with the big sharks and make an attempt to sign an international FA of his talent on a more frequent basis.

What gives me hope is when I see some of the recent Japanese signings going to teams like KC and Tampa, as well as Oakland and San Diego (perennial cheap spenders) landing some of the top talent in the Dominican and the rest of Latin America. If they spent the money in the draft this year, why not drop some coin outside of the US?

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 12, 2008 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Braves
Tigers
Red Sox
Pirates
Mets
Yankees

Which of these is not like the others?

by WTM on Sep 11, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was shocked to see the PBC mentioned. Wonder if Matsumi Kuwata

is working for the Bucs in Japan?

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 11, 2008 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kazawa Junichi

Looks to me like he may be Japan’s answer to the great Yoslan Herrera of Cuban fame.

I like him already!

by thegunner on Sep 11, 2008 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not even close to the same thing.

Herrera was a 26-year-old (in Cuban numbers, who knows his real age?) coming off a long period of idle time when we signed him. Tazawa is 22, the same as a college draftee, and he’s been performing at a high level as a Japanese amateur for several years now.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Meant Junicho Tazawa, I Think!

It’s a helluva lot better (and easier for the aged) to sign players with names like Chris Duffy or Jack Wilson!

by thegunner on Sep 11, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Do you have problems with Mientkiewicz, Gorzelanny, and Barthmaier?

Those names are really easy to spell without looking them up.

by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 11, 2008 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's notable, though

that Boras keeps finding (what he believes are) loopholes in the rules that all of Bud’s horses and all of Bud’s men somehow overlook when they write the damn rules. He’s the agent equivalent of the old-time ballplayer who supposedly, back when the baseball rules said you had to call yourself into a game, waited until it was clear no one could catch a popup hit near the bench, stood up and declared himself in the game, and caught the ball. They had to keep rewriting the rules for guys like that who were smarter than they were, who were always looking for an edge and knew one when they saw it. How many “Boras rules” has MLB had to write, because basically he’s smarter than they are? That he occasionally loses a case doesn’t change that; if they have to rewrite a rule because of a Boras action, Boras wins.

Giving the devil his due.

Boras the Spider

by bucdaddy on Sep 11, 2008 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Boras "wins"...

…if he makes his eventual position better. Otherwise, he invested time and money without any financial return.

He’s an agent, not a comic book supervillain.

by Vlad on Sep 11, 2008 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

there are so many losers

from this fiasco already, it’s hard to see anyone coming away a real winner when the a final verdict is reached no matter what compromise or what the terms are
Fans, the organization, Alvarez and boras all are worse off than if the signing had simply happened.

by vherub on Sep 11, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The union still wins.

For them, this is about the sanctity of the CBA. They don’t really care about Boras or Alvarez so much. If MLB is allowed to get away with doing things like unilaterally granting extensions on a deadline that had been collectively bargained, it creates a precedent where MLB can try to fiddle with other collectively-bargained items without the union’s consent.

by matskralc on Sep 11, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Charlie,

Thanks for the nod. I knew I’d get up there someday…

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST

by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 11, 2008 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Do You Think The Red Sox Were Smart To Pay $50 Million Plus...

just for the right to negotiate with Daisuke?

I don’t.

Vlad, I was just hoping to get a rise out of Dr. Seuss when I mentioned the similarity to my boy, Yoslan.

I watched the Japanese video, and I say that he has a terrible motion/delivery for a 22 year old.

I say let the other clubs fight over him. AS SOON AS we get some front office people, scouts and minor league personnel who can find and develop talent, we’ll be OK.

by thegunner on Sep 11, 2008 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs