Roy Oswalt 3-Hits Pirates
by Charlie on Sep 11, 2008 10:26 PM EDT
26 comments
And the three hits went to Luis Rivas, Luis Cruz, and Doug Mientkiewicz, none of whom are important to the Pirates' future in any way. The Bucs also grounded into three double plays, which means Oswalt faced the minimum number of batters. Great.
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well
dejan did make the prescient statement that he’d prefer to use tomorrow’s game story to write about possibly losing 100 games.
by johnnycuff on Sep 11, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no plus side...
This collection of stiffs has to rival the 1962 Mets for the worst collection of ballplayers I’ve ever seen. We had as many errors as hits. There is absolutely no reason for this team to play this poorly. This is a direct reflection on Russell as well as management. I can’t believe I spent all that money on MLB Extra Innings just so I could watch these stiffs play. I am so frustrated, disgusted, and demoralized that I’m not even angry. Seriously, if baseball really wants to contract two teams this should be one of them. Does management really believe they can keep running out to the field this garbage and expect anyone to show up for the games? I can barely force myself to watch them on television. Will someone please tell management to either sign a few capable free agents or contract the team?
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 11, 2008 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s your definition of “capable free agents”? Depending on how you define it, this has been tried many times in the past, with almost uniformly disastrous results. To me, there’s really no choice here but to let the young guys play.
“So frustrated, disgusted and demoralized that I’m not even angry” pretty much describes how I felt the entire time Littlefield was running the team. Is this the first time you’ve felt this way? It’s curious to me that you blame the new management for this. For me, it’s something that’s pretty much always been here, and it will continue to be here until the new guys have a few years to air out the stench.
by Charlie on Sep 11, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF
Gotta part with you on your latest post.
No free agents.
The Pirates must rebuild through wise trades, better scouting and improved player development.
The Pirates should have a better record next year, but they will not if Russell is steering the ship.
It will take another year or two for the Sugar Boys (C & H) to come to this conclusion, but they will eventually admit that they made a mistake with the Russell hire.
Well, maybe not admit it, but they will replace him or Nuttings’ consultants will advise him to replace the Sugar Boys.
by thegunner on Sep 11, 2008 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no free agents? Ivan Rodriguez helped the Tigers while they rebuilt.
I am not suggesting the PBC sign Pudge this offseason, nor am I trying to knock Doumit in any way. I’m just saying that sometimes a free agent signing can be beneficial to a rebuilding team.
by humbucker on Sep 12, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They weren't...
exactly rebuilding when they signed Pudge. They had drafted well several years prior and had already signed Magglio O. to a huge FA contract. They had a much better foundation than we have now. Pudge helped put them over the top. I believe that is what the FO will do when we are in that position and not before. We are not anywhere near ready for a major FA acquisition. It won’t happen and shouldn’t happen…not yet!
by Slick1 on Sep 12, 2008 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve got your chronology a bit messed up there. Pudge was a year before Ordonez.
Actually, the biggest addition to the ’04 Tigers—this is the year after the disastrous season—was not Pudge, but rather Carlos Guillen. Guillen was still fairly young then and came extremely cheaply in a one-sided trade for an older player, so his acquisition was consistent with a philosophy of rebuilding.
When you stink as bad as the Tigers stunk in ‘03, it is much easier to make big leaps forward. The ’04 Tigers were a bunch better than the ’03 version, but most of the difference just involved adding Guillen and having some players who’d underperformed play better. Pudge also helped but they were also only a 70-win team. Pudge was a big part of the improvement, but he wasn’t nearly the difference all by himself.
The Pirates are already pretty close to being a 70-win team and they have been for some time. It’s easier to make big improvements to a 43-win team. Without significant improvements to the quality of the talent coming through the farm system, a big-ticket free agent is unlikely to make much of a dent in the near term. They could add, say, a good starting pitcher and still only have two starting pitchers. I’m sure there would be some fan excitement initially, but eventually people would realize that one big-name player did little more for the team than all the other crappy free agents did, and then the Pirates wouldn’t be any better off than they are now.
by Charlie on Sep 12, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, sorry about that, Guillen wasn’t traded for an older player. I had it in my head that he was traded for Rich Aurilia, but Aurilia didn’t play for the Tigers, he’s just who Seattle acquired to replace Guillen. Either way, the Tigers paid very little for Guillen.
by Charlie on Sep 12, 2008 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno how well the Tigers had drafted B.P. (Before Pudge) --
but in 2002, they went 55-106, and in 2003, they bottomed out at 43-119. before going to the WS in 2006, the Tigers went 72-90 and 71-91in 2004 and 2005, respectively, as they sorted out their promising pitchers (Verlander, sometimes Bonderman, Robertson) from the chaff (Maroth, etc.). by all accounts, Pudge was a big part in that rebuilding by helping a young pitching staff develop.
personally, I don’t want to see the PBC lose anywhere close to 119 games in one year. I am not advocating that the Pirates sign any particular free agent, this year or in the future, but in general, there is nothing wrong with smart FA signings (not to mention increasing fan interest, which is in dire short supply right now).
by humbucker on Sep 12, 2008 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF...
You are angy and you have been angry in many, if not all, of you recent posts. I know you are frustrated as a die hard fan as are we all but you must keep in mind that this mess was created by the last regime. Huntington and Coonelly have been making the right decisios so far for the long term success of this franchise. Unfortunately that means we will have to endure at least to more seasons of sub .500 baseball. I do still share a general distrust of Nutting and I’m not completely sold on the fact that he is committed to building a winner but so far he has allowed FC and NH to do what must be done. This is the 1st “true” rebuild this team has gone through. These guys are doing what needed to be done years ago. Yes this team is painful to watch right now. Yes I am as frustrated with Russell as anyone and I truly do not think he is the guy to lead us to are next winning season. It is obvious that the veterans on the team were disheartened with the deadline trades because it showed that the FO had no confidence that the team on the field, as assembled today, could win, They don’t have the same fire they displayed before the break. McClouth and Doumit (Doumit especially) appear to be running out of steam in their first full seasin as starters and the pitching has been horrendous. However, Alvarez aside, the FO has spent some money to bring some high upside prospects into the system through the draft and international signings. This is something we haven’t seen in the Burgh in years. And it is something to get excited about. I completely disagree with you that spending money on a couple of free agents will do anything to help this club. We are far from a couple of players from contending for the playoffs, The FO has made it clear that they will spend to supplement a core to help us get over the top and not the other way around. I would much rather see us use our resources to continue to sign high upside prospects over slot and continue to bring in internantional talent. In the end..the biggest plus to this collection of stiiffs losing game after game is t he experience they are gaining and the fact the every day we are getting close to drafting Strasburg. Hopefully will sign him before three minute to midnight.
by Slick1 on Sep 11, 2008 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slick1 - Everyone Has Already Annointed Strasburg As The Next Cy Young!
Maybe we should be a little patient. Do you remember Todd Van Poppel, Robbie Beckett (Padres 1st round pick around 1990 and Josh’s older brother) and a slew of others -- a list way too long to go into.
Yes, the Pirates spent some $ this year in the draft and on international players. Let’s wait two or three years and see if they can play.
They took a reasonable, calculated risk on Scheppers at #2. Obviously, he either asked too much or turned out to be damaged goods.
Some will say they signed Alvarez, but as of yet, that is not true.
Yes, the Sugar Boys are doing a better job than McClatchy and Littlefield.
But that is not saying a lot.
Let’s take a look two years down the road and see how the major league club is doing in, say, 2011.
by thegunner on Sep 12, 2008 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gunner....
that’s exactly what I’m saying to IPF. Yeah it sucks now but we are making the right baseabll decisions now in hopes that it will pay off in 2011. As far as Strasburg, I’m not seeing your point. Yeah there are a lot of can’t miss prospects that never amount to anything. But if we have a chance to get a guy like Strasburg I’m all for it. Do you suggest we pass on him and take a Mosksos type pitcher instead? I’m not sure what you were trying to say there but the point I’m making is that the current FO appears to be making the right decisons to get us back on the winning track for the long term. Will the moves pay off? Who knows, only time will tell as you said. But the strategy we are implementing now is much preffered to going out and signng Burnitz and Randa and trading for sean Casey…IMO.
by Slick1 on Sep 12, 2008 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slick1
I understood everything that you said and I realize I over-reacted to last night’s embarassing loss but this is the exact same team that was third in the NL in scoring before the Bay/Nady trades and they’ve totally stopped playing. At one point we were ahead of both Cincinnatti and Houston and we were pitching and hitting pretty well. All of that came to a screaching halt after the trade. Removing these two players should not have caused such a fall-off in play. I have to lay much of the poor play at the feet of Russell and management because the loss of two players should not have made such a big difference. These two guys were not Ruth and Gehrig.
As to Charlie’s question about free-agent signings, I would have to wait and see who is eligible to sign but I believe that it would give the community a big boost if management could sign a couple of players the quality of Lohse, Milton Bradley, Adam Dunne, Brad Penny, Oliver Perez, or Burrell,just to name a few. We have a terrible combination of very little talent plus we’re boring to watch. We need someone exciting. In the past I’ve mentioned McCutcheon but everyone thinks he should be saved for future generations to watch. Just think how exciting it would be to see Tabata, McCutcheon, and McLouth in the outfield with Adam Dunn at 1B and Kyle Lohse pitching? Instead, everyone is afraid to let the rookies play because their egos could be damaged and the clock would start running on their free agency. Consider too, that we’ll probably lose Alvarez and have to wait another year to sign a top draft choice. When the ship is sinking and the lifeboats are gone, you don’t stop to yell at the iceberg. It’s time to take some visable positive action. I realize things will not improve drastically overnight but they can be made better and there is no excuse for the horrendous play in the post-Bay/Nady era.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 12, 2008 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In case you want to start thinking...
…here’s a semi-reliable list of guys who will be FA after the season.
I don’t think your position on the rookies is exactly fair. It’s not that we want to keep McCutchen (et al) hermetically sealed forever, it’s just that he wasn’t exactly dominant at AAA, and as such there’s no point in rushing him. Right now, he’d probably hit something like .270/.330/.380 if promoted and then thrust into the lineup. Given the defensive boost for him over Nate in CF, that might make us a better roster (with Nate in LF and a Moss/Pearce platoon in RF), but it’s not going to be the kind of huge, immediate upgrade that you seem to be seeking.
There aren’t going to be any easy fixes for our problems. We’re going to have to work our asses off for several years just to get into a position to look .500 in the face, to say nothing of actually contending.
by Vlad on Sep 12, 2008 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scary list
There are more ties to the Pirates on that free agent list than I care to remember. Maybe we can sign them all for 2009 and have a reunion commemorating our complete ineptitude:
Oliver Perez, Cesar Izturis, Byung-Hyun Kim, Brandon Lyon (if only briefly), Luis Rivas, Dave Williams, Tony Armas, Shawn Chacon, Runelvys Hernandez, Joe Beimel, Adam Bernero, Josh Fogg, David Ross, Kip Wells, Craig Wilson, Rob Mackowiak, Jason Michaels, Abraham Nunez, Jaret Wright, Kris Benson, Emil Brown, Dan Kolb, Damaso Marte, Daryle Ward, Sean Casey, Wiki Gonzalez, Jason Kendall, Doug Mientkiewicz, Matt Morris, Jim Brower, Julian Tavarez, Esteban Loaiza, Salomon Torres, John Wasdin, Elmer Dessens, Brian Giles, Chris Gomez, Matt Herges, Jon Lieber, Dan Miceli, Al Reyes, Arthur Rhodes, Ricardo Rincon, Ron Villone, Brian Shouse, Moises Alou, Tim Wakefield
$100 says Dave Littlefield is drooling over this list and urging Jim Hendry to sign Villone to a 2-year, $9-million deal as a starting pitcher.
by Alleghenys on Sep 12, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you give Lohse more value than what he is worth.
As much as I dislike St. Louis, I give Duncan credit for the job he has done with Lohse. I would shudder to see him in black and gold.
We will not lose Pedro Alvarez. The only things lost will be his year in the organization and the patience of the fan base with this MLBPA vs. MLB fiasco.
by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 12, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus side... (and a mini-rant)
wasn’t it just recently that we were almost no-hit?
Baby steps…
And yes, I’m kidding. Kinda.
I really have stopped following this team as of late (since football season started at latest, probably before then). It’s just depressing to watch them on their march to 100 losses.
We keep using the vets that won’t be part of the “future” (whenever that begins)… and we’re still losing. So the guys (Pearce, Luigi, Moss, whoever else) that need to play don’t… and the team isn’t even winning as a result of benching them.
What exactly is this team trying to do right now? I thought it was time to hold open tryouts for the youngsters to prove they deserve a starting spot… not open tryouts for the vets to show that they might be deserving of a bench spot here next year.
The Utah Jazz. The Jazz... duh.
The best NBA team in Utah... no doubts about it!
Playing For Pride. Pirates, Utes, Panthers, and more...
Because, in the end, only one team can "win it all".
by UtesFan89 on Sep 12, 2008 12:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree and disagree
I agree that Nady and Bay were going to be gone and getting prospects was the way to go. I have no problem with the moves the sugar boys have made and would like to believe that a non-losing season is a couple of years away. But, like slick1 said, I don’t believe in Nutting and his so-called advisers. Also, I am not an accountant, but I doubt very much that spending 6 millon on Alvarez (which may not happen) and 5 mil on a complex in S. America or whereever, pays out much more than the savings on Bay, Marte, and Nady over the next year or so. As long as this ownership controls the Pirates, those potential good players are just rentals here. Thus a championship team can not be had. I say pay the bucks or move the bucs…
by long4willie on Sep 12, 2008 1:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Astros
The Astros were mocked for not giving up at the trading deadline. It would be awesome if they keep this up and somehow make the postseason. I doubt it will happen, but I’m rooting for them.
by bolton on Sep 12, 2008 1:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely brutal...
What’s the line on whether the Bucs will win another game before season’s end?
by Deaner on Sep 12, 2008 8:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry, Buc fans...the Cardinals are coming to town
I’m sure we’ll find a way to cough up a win or two to you this weekend, the way things have been going for us…not that I expect much sympathy here, LOL!!
by tbell61 on Sep 12, 2008 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF
With all due respect the argument is getting tired. You don’t like the direction, the choices that have been made and the current management team. Everyone agrees they are playing terrible baseball, but most are willing to look past it because they see that potentially the right steps are being put in place and hopefully we can contend in 2010 and thereafter. I get it, we all get it, that you aren’t happy. Others feel we are beginning to lay a foundation for the first time in 15 or so years. I respect your opinion and neither of us will know who is correct for awhile.
Nonetheless, you just don’t have to republish the same argument you’ve been making after every loss. We all understand your opinion. Please continue to share your thoughts, but how about when there is something new.
by dtoddwin on Sep 12, 2008 4:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, Barthmaier is taking Gorzellany's spot
in the rotation.
From the PG’s Blog via Meyer:
4:21 p.m. Tom Gorzelanny is done for the season. The left-hander is out because of a ligament sprain to his left middle finger. . .Jimmy Barthmaier is here to take Gorzelanny’s place in the rotation. . .Jeff Karstens probably will start Saturday night. He had work done on an abcessed tooth today, and the left side of his face was pretty swollen. If Karstens can’t start Saturday night, Ian Snell will. . .Freddy Sanchez still has some blurriness in his right eye but saw a specialist today. "They put plugs in to keep it moisturized,‘’ Sanchez said. "If that doesn’t work, they’ll put in a contact lens.‘’. . .Pitcher Daniel McCutchen, acquired from the New York Yankees in the Xavier Nady/Damaso Marte trade, is with the Pirates for the weekend. His role? "Hang out, meet the guys, play some catch and see how it is in the big leagues,’’ McCutchen said. The Pirates will do the same with Neil Walker and Andrew McCutchen during this homestand.
by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 12, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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