Minor League Numbers Matter
When I read questions like the last one here, which asks if the Pirates scouted Andy LaRoche before trading for him, I get a little uncomfortable. This is a strange time of year, and the Pirates need to use their available playing time to look at their best young players without worrying too much about the results. They can't be too quick to draw conclusions, and the most important rule of thumb when watching these games should be this: minor league numbers matter.
An example that we all surely remember: at the end of the 2002 season, Tike Redman was at Class AAA Nashville and he was going nowhere. It was so bad for him that he was removed from the 40-man roster after the season. He went through waivers and no one claimed him. Then in 2003 he was better at Class AAA, but still nothing special. The Pirates traded Kenny Lofton in July, opening playing time for Redman, and he hit .330/.374/.483 in 230 at bats down the stretch. This was far better, even before considering context, than any line he posted at any point in the minors.
I remember one commenter at Primer quipping that if Redman's major-league performance occurred as the result of his having improved, he appeared to have done all his improvement on the flight from Nashville. The commenter was right: Redman's performance was a fluke. Unfortunately, that didn't stop the Pirates from treating that two-month stretch like it mattered and giving Redman nearly two more painful, painful years of playing time. Had the Pirates trusted his minor league numbers, that wouldn't have happened.
Yes, Andy LaRoche looks very bad right now. But minor league numbers matter, and every time LaRoche is down there, he kills the ball. Six weeks' worth of numbers, however bad they might be, don't mean a whole lot. I'm actually more concerned about his fielding, but I think that will also eventually come around. Comparing him to Jose Bautista is, frankly, a ridiculous exercise. Bautista was several years older than LaRoche and never looked like a future star at any point. LaRoche is 24 and was ranked as one of the better prospects in baseball coming into the season. So stop worrying about it and let him fail for a while, if that's what will happen. Eventually, those failures will turn into successes. And if they don't, let's revisit this again once he's had 600 or so at bats as a Pirate.
Anyway, what could you do with him? Send him back to the minors next year? He tears the cover off the ball every time he's down there, so why bother? He'd just hit well and would eventually have to be called back up anyway. The Pirates have few appealing alternatives at third base right now, and so they're going to give LaRoche a lot of at bats no matter what; he may as well get them right in a row, so that he can get used to major league pitching. The Pirates are right to pencil him in as their third baseman for the near future.
The Pirates need to apply the principle that minor league numbers matter to their outfield situation as well. I continue to be perplexed by how much Nyjer Morgan is playing. Generally, it's good for a team in the Pirates' situation to give playing time to youngsters, but Morgan isn't young and he has no future as a major league regular. It's right there in his minor league numbers, which show that he simply doesn't have the skillset to succeed as a major league hitter. There is virtually no upside there--none--and those who believe otherwise are either mistaken or are clinging to an antiquated idea of how baseball is played. Speed, without any idea how to use it and without power or plate discipline to complement it, simply doesn't cut it anymore. You can look throughout the majors and not find a single successful player whose career parallels Morgan's. I'd hate to think that the Pirates' management honestly believes that Morgan can start, because they've seemed to be able to see through these kinds of fantasies with regard to other players.
Morgan's continued presence in the lineup is particularly baffling because the Pirates have a player in Steve Pearce who loses out on badly needed playing time as a result of the organization's continued fascination with Morgan. Again, minor league numbers matter, and Pearce was named the Minor League Player of the Year by MILB.com last year. While Pearce is coming off a disappointing season in Class AAA and is far from a sure thing, his minor league numbers at least indicate that he has potential.
Check out the first question in Dejan Kovacevic's chat today:
curt_raydon_fan: Has Pearce pulled a "reverse Murtaugh" and spit on Russell's shoe? He seems to be marginalized this September. Or are they sending him to Mexico to learn to lay off the junk pitches?
Dejan Kovacevic: Someone asked the other day, and I didn't have a good answer: Has Steve Pearce hit a ball to the warning track in the majors yet? Maybe once we have the answer to that, we will have a better idea for how and why he needs to be much, much more selective at the plate to make use of that power he used to show in the minors.
Well, fine, but... first, Pearce's OPS in the majors this year is still higher than Morgan's has been. Why Pearce's performance is seen as the problem and not Morgan's is beyond me. (There is a question later in the chat about Morgan's baserunning, but nothing about his hitting, which is dreadful.)
Also, here's the plate appearances Pearce has gotten since being recalled:
9/8: 1
9/7: 4
9/6: 0
9/5: 0
9/4: 3
9/3: 0
9/2: 0
Honestly, how fair is it to wring hands about Pearce's pitch selection against major league hitting? What opportunity has he had to find a rhythm?
Given that Morgan is taking the most playing time from Pearce, there is no reason not to give Pearce some playing time. He might turn out to be an effective big league hitter. Morgan won't.
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54 comments
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Comments
Charlie, as you may have noticed...
we had a bit of discussion on this very subject in the game thread last night. What I find absolutely amazing is that Pearce’s pitch selection gets criticized by Pirates management…and Morgan’s frequent mental blunders get swept under the table. Morgan doesn’t know how to PLAY baseball. He just knows how to run.
by Thunder on Sep 9, 2008 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel quite confident
that Charlie is aware of the discussion last night, and it was a motivating factor for his post.
I am all for Pearce getting more AB’s. I just prefer not to trash Morgan in deferrence to Pearce. Neither has proven they are the better MLB player.
Sure minor league numbers matter, just ask Brad Eldred.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I didn’t see it, actually. I went to Angel Stadium last night for the game there and completely missed the Pirates game. I’ll check out the thread now.
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By all means, ask Eldred. Minor league numbers matter if you interpret them properly. A 25-yr-old with a 1.000 OPS in low A, for instance, doesn’t mean a heck of a lot, for instance. Whiffing in a third of your ABs is also a pretty indicator you’re not going to hit major league pitching. Ryan Howard is the only exception to that rule I’ve been able to find.
by WTM on Sep 9, 2008 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly!
You interpret them accordingly. It is a very inexact science. To emphatically state that Pearce is unquestionably the better player now is absurd.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In case you haven’t noticed, its not about NOW. Morgan has no part in a successful franchise, whereas Pearce possibly could. Not that I’m saying Pearce isn’t better now anyway. Morgan will unquestionably always be terrible, whereas with Pearce, it’s only possible.
by wickethewok on Sep 9, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define terrible
Swinging at sliders 4 feet off the plate? Not being able to squeeze even one warning track fly ball in 200 ABs? Being an atrocious rightfielder?
You guys act like I love Morgan. I don’t!! But neither do I love Pearce. He has shown me NADA to warrant the love he gets on Pirates blogs.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at Eldred's numbers...
His career MiLB slash numbers are .267/.335/.554. It’s hard, if not impossible, to succeed in the majors as a batter if you can’t hit for average and get on base in the minors. For comparison, Ryan Howard hit .299/.387/.550. That is not a small difference.
by wickethewok on Sep 9, 2008 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
AAA
There’s also the fact that Eldred struggled in AAA until this year, and he’s 27 now. Howard had an OPS well over 1.000 in AAA.
by WTM on Sep 9, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to laugh...
…whenever I’d see people compare Eldred to Adam Dunn. Which happened ALL THE TIME back in the old days.
Dunn was up and hitting bombs in the majors while Eldred was still hoping to get noticed at a second-tier college.
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Article
Right on Charlie, and the point I was to make has already been stated. Pearce also had a fair number of walks to go along with his power.
by SkeedTom on Sep 9, 2008 5:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yet he doesn't even have WTP in the bigs.........
Hell………..Nyjer, of all people, hits with more authority than I have seen from Pearce so far.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being concerned about Pearce’s age and his weak AAA season are good reasons to doubt what he’ll do in the majors. But his sample size in the majors so far has little if any meaning.
by WTM on Sep 9, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not disagree
perhaps you and most of the others have missed my point. I do not think Morgan will amount to anything in the league. I am no big NM fan.
I just find the Pearce lovefest troubling, as it perpetuates a Pittsburgh stereotype.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody's missed your point
I don’t see any lovefest. The argument, as I understand it, is that Pearce has some outside chance of being a legitimate major league regular. Morgan has none. The difference is between limited upside and no upside.
by WTM on Sep 9, 2008 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the things I’ve learned from this blog is that you can be part of a lovefest by saying anything positive about a player, no matter how mild. I don’t think I have ever insinuated that Pearce is going to be some kind of star, not even at this point last year when he looked like a much better prospect than he does now. I just want him to get regular playing time for a while.
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Important caveat
In your opinion
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it’s his opinion.
You’ve already said that you’re all for Pearce getting more at bats and that Morgan won’t amount to anything. So where’s the disagreement?
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The major disagreement
is the belief that Pearce is a can’t miss prospect and Morgan is trash. My eyes tell me a different story.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO ONE HAS SAID PEARCE IS A CAN’T MISS PROSPECT. No one has said this. In fact, both WTM and I have specifically said that we don’t intend to be read that way.
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
I guess my problem is with all the weeping and gnashing of teeth when Morgan starts and Pearce sits. Pearce has underwhelmed big time in the bigs.
I just do not understand the sweeping love for Pearce and the hate for Morgan. And before you dismiss the hate for Morgan……….one of our contributers here made his stance known on WHYGAVS.
You should check it out.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 9, 2008 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Infinite loop
You’re just going to beat that straw man to death a million times over, aren’t you? Are you sure you’re not just some sort of automated response?
by WTM on Sep 9, 2008 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you read well?
You’re right, I have declared myself el presidente of the Nyjer Morgan Hate Club. Your continued insistence at confusing this and anybody else’s distaste for Morgan with a burning passion for Steve Pearce is the mark of either an idiot or a troll. Pick one.
by matskralc on Sep 10, 2008 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personal attacks
do not become you. Not that anything does.
by Hitman Easler on Sep 10, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can You Believe ...
… that we are arguing over Steve Pearce and Nyjer Morgan as if these two players are critical to the future success of the Pirates.
That we are arguing over them says an awful lot about the future of the Pirates as well as the inability of Huntington and Russell/Varsho to agree on personnel.
by thegunner on Sep 9, 2008 6:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
if I were going to truthfully argue…I’d say Andrew McCutchen should be on the roster before either Morgan or Pearce. But I also know that the Pirates are so worried about when he goes to arbitration and free agency…that it wouldn’t happen. I guess you don’t necessarily take the BEST 25 players (or 40 in September) in the system with you.
by Thunder on Sep 9, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you that the future for the Pirates is Andrew McCutchen
and that the PBC is keeping him down to delay his free agency/arbitration in the coming years. I look forward to an outfield of McCutchen, Tabata and Moss/McLouth in the foreseeable future. Seeing as how this season is in the crapper already, I’m fine with holding off on McCutchen in the majors for awhile.
I have no love for either Morgan or Pearce and wonder why Pearce is seeing the bench while Morgan gets to play every day. I look at Morgan as that AAAA outfielder that gets called up for being a ‘good soldier’, the guy that does what the FO wants and is rewarded for toting the line. NH & JR have stated they would love to have a CF patrolling LF for them and that is the only reason that I see this time as working Morgan into that role for subbing duties in the future. Keep in mind, I am not calling Morgan a prospect, just a AAAA role player on Indy’s bench in case of injuries to any of the Pirates outfielders. Great time to see what his weaknesses are (many, I know) and get him to work on them in Mexico. See if there is any improvement during spring training and go from there.
As far as Pearce is concerned, I can only imagine what has caused his prospect status to drop in the eyes of NH. His stats this season have been a disappointment compared to 2007. I remember reading an interview Pearce had in mid season with a writer in Indy saying that he was sure that some ML team would want him which makes me wonder why he would be discussing or even wanting a trade while in AAA. Was he butting heads with the new directives of the FO at that point? Pissing in the Cheerios instead of showing some patience at the plate? He had a meteoric rise through the minors last season but has had a disappointing 2008 that has raised question marks about his abilities to adjust to upper level pitching. If a prospect can’t hit AAA pitching, what makes anyone think he can hit MLB caliber pitching?
Just a question, if Pearce didn’t have the 2007 season that he had, at what level would he had been playing this season, AA, AAA? I honestly don’t know.
This season has seen a major turnover in the 40 man roster, as NH fills it out with the types of players he wants. Morgan and Pearce were Littlefield’s guys and I wouldn’t be too surprised to see them off of the roster and replaced with Huntington’s guys sooner than later.
by ElliottBayBucco on Sep 9, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ain't that the truth, Gunner?
It’s not like we asking Russell whether he wants Aaron or Mays. Shouldn’t NH tell Russell who to play? I think it’s ironic that Russell chose this vary moment to begin to think for himself when he’s fail to do so all season. If he and NH can’t agree on which one to play then play them both. It’s not like we’re playing for anything. We know what McLouth can do so shut him down before he hurts himself and let these two guys battle it out for next year.
by Illinois Pirate Fan on Sep 10, 2008 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IPF
So, let`s have NH make the lineup decisions on a daily basis, and sit McClouth because he might get a debilitating hangnail-brillant as usual.
By the way, how do you know Russell had failed to think for himself til September rolled around?
by patthatt on Sep 13, 2008 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Parallel player...
Joey Gathwright seems to be a comparable player to Nyjer Morgan, doesn’t have too great of an avg., absolutely no power, a ton of speed, and not much else.
Both, to me, are solid bench players. It’s debatable as to whether Pearce should be getting Morgan’s spot in the lineup everyday, but I disagree with any statement Morgan doesn’t belong in the major’s. Speed kills. It’s the Russell’s job to work with Morgan on the basepads to keep from oversliding, etc.
In my opinion, it’s always a huge bonus to have a guy on your squad you can put in as a pinch runner or enter into the game late to spark a rally with some speed. No, he shouldn’t be starting everyday in the outfield when thinking long term, but Morgan can be a very solid rotational bench player.
by jlk9697 on Sep 9, 2008 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Speed kills what?
Rallies? Funny you mention Gathright, he’s actually younger than Morgan, and better at everything, if minor league numbers matter. Great, Morgan’s a poor man’s Joe Gathright. Smell the value.
by azibuck on Sep 9, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but the general point was right: Morgan’s a bench player.
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(But yeah, Gathright>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Morgan, and Gathright’s not too interesting)
by Charlie on Sep 9, 2008 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a major participant in last night's thread . . .
. . . I have only one thing to add to Charlie’s excellent post:
“What he said.”
Nyjer Morgan can’t even hold Herb Washington’s cleats (look him up — lifetime 33 R and 0 AB). 1 HR/yr each of last 4 years is truly awful — he should have more than that in inside the park HRs. 28 f’ing years old!!!
Hitman may be right and Pearce may wash out — but how will the PBC know if they don’t play him?
Look at the Angels — they are getting ready to clinch their division but are giving a huge opportunity to start to SS Brandon Wood. This 23 y.o. is way under the Mendoza line in 140 AB over two years, but in the minors he’s Ernie Banks. Some of you guys would say, “he’s done nothing in the majors, he’s not even Brian Bixler in his ML stats. Sit him down.” I think — play him cause minor league stats are excellent, and like Charlie says, minor league stats matter. Last night he had 2 HR against the Yankees — raising his BA to .183 and maybe reason for hope? I’m not saying Pearce is Wood (Pearce has been pretty much older at every level), but he’s sure not Morgan. Pearce deserves to start 6 nights a week until the end of the season.
by WstCstBucco on Sep 9, 2008 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time understanding why
so many on this site see Pearce as such a good prospect. He hit well as a 24 year old last season but most of his ABs were in A+ or AA. He continued his good hitting for 122 ABs in AAA that year but now he has over 500 AAA ABs, .267 average with 19 HRs. That would be impressive if he were 21 or 22 but not for a 25 year old. As I understand it he has also often looked terrible at the plate when he has had the chance to play in Pittsburgh.
The Pirates probably see Morgan as a better 5th outfielder candidate due to better defense and the potential to be a good pinch runner (if he can learn to overcome the bone headed plays on the basepaths).
by WestCoastBuc on Sep 9, 2008 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They see him as a good prospect
Becuase we’re likely to need a LF/RF/1B next year, and Pearce is the best LF/RF/1B candidate in the upper minors (unless you rush Tabata, which is a bad idea). He looks like someone who can, after he adjusts, be an average-ish starter for a minimum salary, which would give us the latitude to spend for a solution at another position next year and/or continue to boost spending on draft picks and international signings. That’s a good thing.
He’s not a great, great prospect, but Morgan isn’t a prospect at all, and it’s frustrating to see the team play a non-prospect over a prospect.
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
…it’s disappointing that he didn’t play better this year, but he had 75 extra-base hits in 2006. Guys who can do that don’t grow on trees.
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys who can run fast but not hit, field or run the bases, however, do grow on trees.
by WTM on Sep 10, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually they're not
They’re made at Speedy Slap Hitters, Inc., a division of the Acme One-Tool Clone Factory.
by azibuck on Sep 10, 2008 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that the company that has
Wile E. Coyote as Chief Operating Officer?
by Thunder on Sep 10, 2008 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
by cocktailsfor2 on Sep 10, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except the runner gets thrown out at the plate instead of having an anvil drop on him.
by WTM on Sep 10, 2008 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morgan Has Only One Asset ...
and that is SPEED.
But he has no idea whatsoever how to utilize his speed.
Until he does, he is absolutely worthless.
And until Pearce gets enough regular playing time to prove that he either can or can’t hit at the ML level, we’ll never know what he can do.
I think that a Moss/Pearce platoon might be reasonably effective until such time that one of them really breaks out.
by thegunner on Sep 9, 2008 10:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you really want to check the number’s Gathwright isn’t that much better than Morgan, adjusting if Morgan were to get as many at bats as Gath.
9 months older than Gath to be exact, not that big of a deal. That point really is over with now, neither are tremendous players, but guys you want on your bench. Period.
Pearce, in my opinion has about equal value to Morgan, in addtion to being 3 years younger. Sure he’ll pop 20 HR if given a full season, but with a poor avg., poor defense, no speed, he’s about as useful as Nyjer.
Hopefully by next year, a month in, we’ll have an outfield of Moss, McCutch, and McLouth playing everyday. Pearce should be playing everyday for the rest of the season to maybe garner interest in him this offseason. If not then Pearce and Morgan will be adequate guys to give McCutch and McLouth the rest they need to stay healthy and productive the full season. Nothing wrong with that.
by jlk9697 on Sep 10, 2008 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure why Pearce...
…would have a poor average? Career .290 hitter in the minors, and a relatively low K rate, so that won’t regress as much as a high-K guy with promotion. He’s probably not going to win any batting titles, but there’s no reason he couldn’t be a .275-ish true-talent guy.
I have to be honest here: I think that Pearce is one of those cases where the numbers don’t tell the whole story. He is, by all accounts, an extremely competitive and motivated guy, and I think that when he had a great spring training (.263/.317/.632, team lead in HR) and still didn’t make the club, he got discouraged, and it showed up in his numbers this year.
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lil LaRoche
I know this has turned into a thread about Morgan v. Pearce (for the record I’m with the "it ain’t Mays vs. Aaron we’re talking about crowd) but I want to compliment Charlie for his comments on Andy LaRoche.
If you’ll check his stats this year, they’re very similar – offensively and defensively – to what the late, great (from a Pirates perspective) Ararmis Ramirez put up at the same age. That’s not to say he will become Ramirez – we can only hope – but it sure as heck means he deserves a long, long look next year.
by TPenaRules on Sep 10, 2008 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As Lloyd Bentsen Said To Dan Quayle in 1987 ...(paraphrased)
I knew Armais Ramirez (not really) and you (Andy LaRoche) are no Aramis Ramirez (and never will be!)
by thegunner on Sep 10, 2008 5:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I bet people said the same kind of thing...
…about Ramirez back when he came up. In fact, I distinctly remember them doing so.
Maybe you were one of them?
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just Ramirez, either.
Mike Schmidt batted .196 in 367 AB as a rookie in ’73. Gary Gaetti hit .230 in 508 AB as a rookie in ’82. Jim Thome batted .228/.285/.330 in 215 AB in his first two seasons. Robin Ventura hit .243/.322/.312 in 538 AB in his first two seasons. Matt Williams batted .188 in 245 AB as a rookie, .205 in 156 AB the year after that, and .202 in 292 AB the year after THAT.
Young players take time to adjust to the majors. Deal with it.
by Vlad on Sep 10, 2008 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Illinois Pirate Fan
I’m waiting until Charlie starts the next blog thread. I have a suggestion for him as to how to improve his blog.
Keeeeeeeeeeeep watchin!
by thegunner on Sep 10, 2008 5:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The best way to improve this blog
would be to bar Ignorant Pirate Fans.
by patthatt on Sep 13, 2008 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to disagree
It’s exasperating sometimes to talk to people that think a totally different way than you do, but if you only interact with people with the same knowledge base and viewpoints as you, you’ll never convince/teach anyone else… and on the rare occasions when the other people are right and you’re wrong, you’ll never have a chance to learn from them.
Nothing better than an honest dialogue.
by Vlad on Sep 13, 2008 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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