Has Andrew McCutchen Been Rushed?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jan 21, 2009 5:27 PM EST
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PrintESPN posted Keith Law's Top 25 prospects earlier today and then, it appears, removed them, but one thing he apparently said was that Andrew McCutchen has been rushed, first by skipping Class A+ and then by being promoted from Altoona to Indianapolis despite a less-than-inspiring performance at the former.
I can't really argue with Law, but I'm not sure any harm has been done, and I'm not sure I would have done it differently. McCutchen was puttering along at Class A Hickory in 2006. Unfortunately, Hickory was a mediocre team and so was Class A+ Lynchburg, so neither of them would be making the playoffs. So the Pirates promoted McCutchen and Neil Walker, who had been with Lynchburg, to Class AA Altoona, which was made the playoffs. Walker was terrible there in a small sample, but McCutchen was terrific, hitting .308/.379/.474 in 78 at bats.
If you were the Pirates before the 2007 season, what would you have done? It's easy to say now, in retrospect, that McCutchen's impressive performance at Altoona came in a small sample and that his development plan should not have changed. But at the time it appeared that McCutchen may have played so well at Class AA because he was responding to a challenge (and, possibly, having an easier time because he was finally facing pitchers who threw strikes), and that appearance grew harder to avoid when McCutchen hit like crazy in 2007 Spring Training. Sending McCutchen to Lynchburg in those circumstances would have been, in my opinion, a typically cautious, boring Dave Littlefield move. There was even some rumbling--though not from me--that McCutchen should have ditched both AA and AAA and started the 2007 season in the majors. That would have been insanity, but I don't think that starting McCutchen at Altoona was a bad idea.
McCutchen didn't play brilliantly at Altoona in 2007, but he held his own, hitting .258/.327/.383. The Bucs also let McCutchen play a bit at Indianapolis that year, and again, he hit better at the higher level, going .313/.347/.418. McCutchen hadn't been overwhelmed at Altoona, showing decent control of the strike zone and a bit of power, and the fact that he hit better at Indianapolis again gave the impression that he was the sort of player who responded well to a challenge.
McCutchen didn't hit all that well at Spring Training in 2008, so it was an easy call to send him back to the minors. Should he have been sent to Altoona? To me, this would have been a very conservative and disappointing call, based on the way he played after being promoted to AAA in 2007. The Pirates sent McCutchen to Indianapolis, and he hit .283/.372/.398.
In retrospect, letting McCutchen play at Lynchburg for a while might have been a wise move, but I can't blame Littlefield and company for not seeing it that way at the time, and I don't think the fact that McCutchen was moved a bit quickly will harm him much in the long term. The Pirates would do well to send him back to Indianapolis for a couple months after this year's Spring Training, though, and force McCutchen to prove he belongs in the majors by dominating at AAA.
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Cutch as a Curve
I saw McCutchen play a few times with the Curve and I was disappointed. I know he posted good numbers, but I was expecting him to be more dominant. I’m all for keeping him at Indy until he can be that dominant player that we all expect and need for him to be. On that note, the next few years are looking up for the Bucs. Alverez, McCutchen and the players we got in trades last year, if I lived closer, and had the money, I would consider some sort of season ticket package at PNC. I’ll defiantly get the baseball package on tv to see the PBC.
Think you meant "definately"
but I like “defiantly” better. That’s the spirit!
Someone (DK?) reported that McCutchen...
…was asked to shorten his stroke last season. He was trying to hit homeruns. That accounted for his power outage in the second half of the season.
I agree that rushing McCutchen through the minors, if that’s what it was, probably won’t hurt him in the long-run. The talent is there.
Steve Z
The show
by the end of the season hel be up with the pirates ..being rushed or not hes the first or second prospect we got
I've got no problem with pushing guys
especially someone like McCutchen who never really was overmatched at any level. He never dominated, but was never in over his head. I’d be happy to see him get a few hundred more at bats in AAA to see if he can take a step forward from his numbers last year.
Keith Law has the Pirates with the 22nd best farm system. Jim Callis in his chat today noted the Buccos were 15th in his rankings.
15th?
I find it hard to believe that there are 15 clubs with worse farm systems than the Pirates. And I AM a fan of KLaw. ;-)
by wickethewok on Jan 21, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Law's ranking in this case...
…is in large part a function of him not liking Alvarez. He had him rated as the fifth-best prospect going into the draft last year, and has dropped him a little since then.
He may be right or wrong on that call, but it’s outside the current consensus on the player.
If A Player Can Handle It...
then, by all means, his development should be accelerated.
McCutchen can play, and he can help the Pirates and adjust to the big leagues in 2009. Still, I don’t believe that he is going to be a TRUE IMPACT player, but he should have a nice career in Pittsburgh and he can contribute to a winning team in many ways.
I have seen McCutchen play in the AZ Fall League, so I trust my judgement more than Law’s or Calass’s.
He should have been brough up last September 1 or earlier.
Screw the “clock”.
Yeah, because it would've made such a huge difference...
…to have McCutchen up and hitting .250/.320/.360 on the tail end of last year instead of Nyjer or Pearce.
Was wondering where you were
Was thinking maybe your brain had exploded at the concept of player development.
OK, was HOPING.
McCutchen is the man
but will someone please explain to me why the Pirates shouldnt sign a guy like Freddy Garcia???
BRING BACK TIKE REDMAN
He's already decide that he wants to play in NY.
And both the Yankees and Mets are interested. Ergo, he has no need to even consider an offer from us.
A Message For Team Coonington
Please don’t bring Andrew McCutchen up until you are sure that he is the missing piece that will put the Pirates into contention for the playoffs… no matter how long it takes.
Let him hone his skills against AAA pitching until he is 25 or 26, so that when we bring him to Pittsburgh, we will be certain that he is ready and there will be no doubt that he can hit big league pitching..
It would be foolhardy to start his clock until the Pirates are really ready to compete.
Or, y'know...
…they could just wait to call him up until he’s likely to perform significantly better than what we’ve got right now, and is ready to be a productive contributor in the majors.
That’d work too.
He should have been brough up last September 1 or earlier.
Screw the "clock".
Please don’t bring Andrew McCutchen up until you are sure that he is the missing piece that will put the Pirates into contention for the playoffs… no matter how long it takes.
. . . .
It would be foolhardy to start his clock until the Pirates are really ready to compete.
Gunner vs. Gunner in the Debate of the Century.
You just can’t make this shit up.
What Don't You Understand, WTM?
I simply don’t have the patience that you do to give Team Coonington the five or six years that was given toTeam McLittlefield. The new regime has been “in office” 400 days and has so little to show for it in terms of concrete results,
I think that questions must be asked.
Let’s see what happens in 2009. Maybe there will be a turnaround at PNC. Maybe Alvarez will tear his way through the system, maybe Harold and Kumar will make everyone forget about the fictitious Sidd Finch and eventually become “Slumdog Millionaires” in Pittsburgh, maybe Johnny Depp will throw out the first pitch, maybe Nutting will take lessons from the Somali Pirates and learn how to extract more money from the pockets of the other owners.
There are so many possibilities to explore.
I would just like to see things happening so that I can see that we are moving forward.
I applauded the trades made last year. They were necessary. But I have now seen Lil LaRoche play enough to know that the Pirates way overvalued him.
It’s great that they spent big money signing players in the June draft. Now let’s see what we signed and who can play. I pay little attention to the Laws, Sickels and Callases.
It’s great that we are building a facility in Latin America - about 20 years too late. But better late than never.
There must be objective ways to measure improvement. My only true objective way to measure it is by the W-L record at PNC.
That, right there, is the main thing I don't understand:
Why aren’t you willing to be as patient with a guy like Huntington, who seems to know what he’s doing, as you were with Littlefield, who was showing significant signs of being an idiot as early as 1.5-2 years into his term?
When I take a long, objective look at the state of the franchise, I just don’t see any realistic way to get the franchise turned around in significantly less than that time frame. Think of it like a collapsed building. Before you can start building something on the lot, you have to spend time and money and effort clearing away the rubble that’s heaped-up on the land. No matter how good an architect or builder you are, you can’t get around the physical necessities of the situation.
Speaking Of Littlefield And Rubble!
I was NEVER a Littlefield fan. I knew that he was in way over his head after his first year. But he was just a McClatchy puppet willing to do whatever McClatchy ordered budget-wise, like unloading Ramirez. These things had to be done because the Pirates were in big trouble financially in the early years of Littlefield.
As for your collapsed building, some developers would get that site cleared and ready to rebuild on in a month. Others would dillydally and take six months. Of course, if one have to go through bureaucratic red tape (i.e the government), it may take years.
But there is no bureaucratic red tape here - and therefore, there is no room for excuses.
Sure, it can take as little as a month.
But effectively, you’re asking Huntington to get the lot cleared in a week. If not overnight.
I’d like to see some examples of baseball franchises that went from a total tear-down state to legitimate contenders in the time frame you’re talking about. Because I sure can’t think of any.
Vlad, You Are Not Getting My Message
I only want to see continual improvement and I simply measure that by the W-L record at PNC. If the Pirates won 75 games in 2009, 80 games in 2010 and 85 games in 2011, I would view that as continual improvement.
And that type of performance is easily obtainable.
I am not saying that the Pirates should contend in 2009, although I do believe that a really proactive front office would have the Pirates in a better position to compete by April 2009.
AND I am not an advocate of throwing money at free agents and having a payroll that does not fit the Pittsburgh market or that is not in line with a well-thought-out plan.
This continual improvement can only be obtained through smart front office talent evaluation, excellent minor league player development by hiring good managers/instructors who can communicate what it takes to play the game - both physically and mentally, and by a great scouting plan and properly hired and well-trained scouts.
The only franchise that I can think of that turned things around overnight was the Florida Marlins World Series team of Huizenga, Dombrowski and Leyland. They basically bankrupted the franchise for that one year and then sold off everybody. This is NOT what I am talking about.
What I am talking about would be more like the Atlanta Braves after Schuerholz joined the franchise in the early 90’s. For nearly 15 plus years, they were the picture of continual improvement under the very stable leadership of Schuerholz and Cox.
I am sure that I might be able to think of other examples, but they are few and far between.
But baseball is not unlike the business world. There are many businesses, but there are only a small percentage of really well-run businesses. The same holds true in baseball. Of the 30 franchises, probably only about six (20%), AT MOST, would really be classified as “well-run” by the Jim Collins’ of the world and others who study great companies.
I only want to see continual improvement and I simply measure that by the W-L record at PNC. If the Pirates won 75 games in 2009, 80 games in 2010 and 85 games in 2011, I would view that as continual improvement.
And that type of performance is easily obtainable.
No, it’s not. Do you know a damn thing about baseball history? Check out the Rays, A’s and Twins, and see what their records were like before they started winning. Teams that do it by building through their farm systems don’t see “continual improvement” of 5-odd games every year over a number of years. It happens all at once. The type of improvement you’re calling for is EXACTLY what DL claimed he was aiming at. Like you, DL knew absolutely nothing about building a winning team, and his idea of improving a bit each year showed it.
argh
What I am talking about would be more like the Atlanta Braves after Schuerholz joined the franchise in the early 90’s. For nearly 15 plus years, they were the picture of continual improvement under the very stable leadership of Schuerholz and Cox.
you know, schuerholz “improved” the team in his first season by inheriting a roster containing david justice, ron gant and oh yeah – john smoltz, tom glavine and steve avery – all of whom were in their early 20s. get that? a pitching staff composed of 40% future hall of famers and a bunch of emerging stars just entering their primes and do you know how many more games he won than the previous year? 2 games. look at his moves going forward towards his second season, where the braves improved by an amazing 29 games and you won’t find a many moves of consquence, certainly none that would compare with the simple improvement of existing young talent – a luxury that our incoming management was not presented with.
please please PLEASE. all of this stuff is available for free online – start with baseball-reference.com, and don’t worry there’s no crazy witchcraft like line drive percentages or VORP – so there’s absolutely no reason why you should blindly consider your completely uninformed or unresearched statements as proof of anything.
i’m not saying this to berate you (well ok a little) but to raise the level of discussion on this board. if you think schuerholz is a good model for what the franchise and management are facing, then for f$%^k’s sake do some simple research first to see if you’re correct and then write a post about it. i’m tired of marking your posts with red ink.
you know, schuerholz "improved" the team in his first season by inheriting a roster containing david justice, ron gant and oh yeah – john smoltz, tom glavine and steve avery – all of whom were in their early 20s.
So why doesn’t Coonington go out and get some guys like that? It’s easy. Just ask Gunner.
[/sarcasm]
Schuerholz Was Lucky ...
for about 14-15 years!
"There must be objective ways to measure improvement."
If you want to measure it for individual players, try sabermetrics.
Your biggest problem with the current regime
seems to be that they are unable to evaluate talent as evidenced by Andy LaRoche who has not played well as of yet (even though he was getting over an injury) but I see no other evidence besides that but I (and most others on the blog) seem to be willing to give him at least another year.
We won’t know if the 2008 draftees are crap until long after we’ve NH et al by your timeframe and same with other newcomers like Tabata.
You say that the “only true objective way to measure it is by the W-L record at PNC.” But it seems that you would be unable to improve the W-L at PNC this season dramatically is by bringing in free agents who would block prospects which you have railed against (rightly so).
I and others have asked you before, what you would like to see done but you never answer this question instead saying “I want to be paid for my ideas.” I’m just not sure how I or anyone is supposed to take your ideas seriously when you don’t other any solutions.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jan 22, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Get used to disappointment
Let’s just face it — You’ll be bitterly disappointed with anything other than a winning record (or contending, or winning the WS, whatever) starting yesterday, no matter what the team’s management does. If Pedro Alvarez comes up in July, hits 25 HRs in a month, then gets hit by a truck and the team has a losing season, you’ll blame them for that.
The fact that current management inherited a franchise that was in probably the worst condition of any franchise undergoing a management change in recent times is irrelevant to you. Never mind, for instance, that the people who are running the Rays now, and getting all sorts of kudos in the process, took over an organization that was in VASTLY better shape than the Pirates talent-wise, yet lost 197 games their first two years. But you want the impossible and are going to whine and whine until you get it, without regard to reality. When you boil it all down, you’re like a child who wants an extremely expensive toy that his parents can’t remotely afford, and you’re going to cry and cry and cry about how rotten they are for refusing to get it for you.
WTM
Tampa Bay was an expansion franchise - and a very poorly run franchise at that for its first several years. Please tell me about all the great ballplayers in the Tampa Bay organization when current management took over. Aside from Upton, Longoria and Price, (and Longoria and Price were drafted by current management) much of their team has been patched together through trades and a couple of free agent signings while still remaining a low budget payroll in 2008.
I don’t want to get into a pissing match with a baseball “historian” of your impeccable credentials.
I’d like to see Alvarez do that (sans the truck), That will really put the fans in the seats at PNC.
When the current people took over, BA rated Tampa as having the 10th best system in MLB. A year later they were ranked first. A lot of those guys were used in trades, like Delmon Young, who brought them Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett. And they frittered away a couple, notably Josh Hamilton, and mostly lost Baldelli to injury. Of the guys who played key roles on their pennant winning team, Upton, Crawford, Kazmir, Sonnanstine, and Shields were already in the org., and Garza, Bartlett, Howell, and Navarro were acquired for players who were in the org. That’s all their really crucial players except Iwamura, Pena, Longoria and most of the bullpen. Having the core of a good team, or the talent needed to acquire it, let them fill in with role players like Floyd, Gross, Hinske and some relievers, and a few great pickups (Pena especially).
The Pirates aren’t nearly in that position. When NH took over, they were ranked 26th, and it would have been even lower if the Tigers and White Sox hadn’t just traded away most of their prospects at that point.
Let's look at Tampa for a second.
Friedman was hired as their GM after the end of the 2005 season. At that point, they already had Scott Kazmir, Carl Crawford, Rocco Baldelli, Jason Hammel, Seth McClung, and Joey Gathright on the ML roster, as well as the following young players in various levels of the farm system (among others):
*B.J. Upton (AAA)
*Delmon Young (AAA)
*James Shields (AAA)
*Andy Sonnanstine (A+)
*Fernando Perez (A)
That’s at least half of the core of their 2008 champs, right there, already in place. Kazmir, Shields, and Sonnanstine were their 1st, 2nd, and 4th starters, Upton and Crawford were 2/3 of their starting outfield, and Hammel, Baldelli, and Perez were useful role-players. Some of those other players were traded for young players of equivalent value, who fit the needs of the roster better – and became other parts of that core. Young, regarded as one of the top position prospects in baseball when he was traded, brought back Garza and Bartlett, the #3 starter and starting shortstop. McClung and Gathright were dealt for Balfour and Howell, two key components of the bullpen. Now, those were good trades for Tampa, but without having excess top young players to deal, they wouldn’t have been able to make those trades in the first place.
[Please note that there are many other strong prospects who were already in the system as well – Wade Davis, Jake McGee, Jeremy Hellickson, Elijah Dukes, etc. I am leaving these people out because they didn’t have much to do with last year’s success, but make no mistake: It was a VERY deep system.]
I guess that’s my main problem with what you’re saying, Gunner. Tampa started out with significantly more in-system talent than we have right now (I mean, they were LOADED), they made virtually nothing but shrewd moves – and they still needed three years before their ML record changed in any appreciable way. Coming off a 65 win season in 2005, they had 65 wins again in 2006, and 67 wins in 2007. The ML wins weren’t coming, but they were able to bust out in 2008 because they’d been building from within and filling the holes in their young core.
Right now, we have relatively few tradable commodities on the ML roster, and an average-at-best farm system. It’ll take us probably two years to even get to where Tampa was at the end of 2005. And yet you seem to think that contention should only be a few years away…
Maybe it'll go through with repetition
Yeah, suuuurrrrrrrrrrre.
Just to belabor the point some more, I’ve seen comments from the Rays’ front office about how they weren’t going to get panicked by the losses into making moves that departed from their plan to go with their young talent. In other words, they weren’t going to do what Gunner wants the Pirates to do.
You can't
belabor thegunner,
you can only hope to delay him.
I kid, I kid…
sorta.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
by cocktailsfor2 on Jan 22, 2009 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Jeebus Christmas
This is like watching a street argument between radical pro-lifers and radical pro-choicers. Do y’all think anyone on either side is suddenly going to wake up one morning and smack him/herself in the forehead and exclaim “My God, yes! I see it clear now! You’re absolutely right, and I’ve been wrong lo these many years! Your facts and your reasoning and your compelling logic have completely won me over! I understand perfectly now! Where do I sign up?”
Yes, gunner, that’s you: completely impervious to facts, logic and reason. But that doesn’t bother me anymore. You is what you is. I just can’t understand why these other guys think you’re going to see the light someday, if maybe they just write enough. Kind of the way tourists figure they can communicate with people who don’t speak their language if they just SPEAK …. LOUDER … AND … SLOOOOOOOOOOWER.
bucdaddy
Like mlb.com says on their baseball telecasts ….
“Keep watchin!”
By the time we can see the full benefit of all of current management's actions,
you will be loooooooooong gone from the thoughts of other Bucs Dugout posters. We will keep watching, but it won’t matter.
Rushed Smushed
The only thing that has not come around is power and that always comes last. They must start 2009 with McCutchen. He is going to suck, but that is part of growing pains and the Pirates have to accept the fact 0-6 years really means year one will suck, year 2,3,4 are the peaks and half of the 5th year before you trade the guy. This is life in Pittsburgh and if we want to have any hope in 2010, then get McCutchen up to the bigs as early as possible in 09. With Tabata right behind him.
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