2003 All Over Again?
by Charlie on Jan 22, 2009 3:33 PM EST
71 comments
This item, buried at the end of a new Ken Rosenthal piece, has me thinking:
While some high-revenue teams anticipate salary dumps by clubs in weaker financial positions, the Pirates are among the low-revenue teams saying that they can withstand the sharp economic downturn without shedding payroll.
Pirates general manager Neal Huntington credits the work and support of team chairman Bob Nutting for the team's increased stability. The Pirates, thanks to the introduction of new value packages, actually are on pace to meet their season-ticket goals.
"We will not need to move payroll," Huntington says.
As we enter late January, a number of big names remain free agents and, although I have no specific information suggesting this will happen, it would not surprise me if the Pirates suddenly became much bigger players on the market than they intended to be.
In 2003, you'll recall, Dave Littlefield signed Jeff Suppan, Reggie Sanders, Matt Stairs and Kenny Lofton for a grand total of about $4 million. These signings had the unfortunate effect of blocking Craig Wilson, who might have blossomed into more than he became if he had been allowed to play regularly in the first three years of Littlefield's tenure, but other than that these signings were some of the best moves Littlefield ever made. All four players were productive, and Suppan was later flipped with Scott Sauerbeck to the Red Sox for Freddy Sanchez.
Littlefield got very lucky with these signings, and there's no reason to think the 2009 Pirates can grab anywhere near that much talent with anything like $4 million, but some aspects of the 2009 situation are similar: tons of free agents remain unsigned, and mid-tier free agents seem to be going for bargain prices.
Also, the current composition of the Pirates matches well with the best players available in free agency. There are only a couple of really interesting infielders left (Orlando Hudson is the best in that group), but the Pirates don't really need any of those. There are a couple of interesting catchers left (like Jason Varitek), but they're mostly on their last legs.
What the free agent hitting class really has left are outfielders, and the Pirates are planning on going into 2009 with Brandon Moss and Nyjer Morgan starting in their outfield. I'd like to see Moss get an extended shot, and I like Steve Pearce better than either Moss or Morgan, but none of those players are likely to help much in the long haul--Moss, when all is said and done, will probably be a fourth outfielder; the Pirates have little interest in Pearce anyway; and Morgan's just terrible.
Meanwhile, Manny Ramirez, Adam Dunn and Bobby Abreu are all available through free agency. It is probably unlikely that any of them would sign with the Pirates, and it's possible that Ramirez, who is coveted and shouldn't even enter the discussion of outfielders who might come to the Pirates, will sign and set a reasonable market for Dunn and Abreu.
The fact remains, though, that Dunn and Abreu are available, and In any other year they would be signing long contracts that would be unwise for the Pirates anyway. In any other year, they'd have lots of competition for their services, and there would be no chance of the Pirates getting them without overpaying with a long and expensive contract.
This year, it might be different. Pat found this article, in which one agent is quoted as saying that Dunn won't get more than $5 million per year. I think that's unlikely, but if that's anywhere near the truth, I see no problem with the Pirates swooping in and offering, say, $13 million for a year (which is what Dunn made in 2008), or $20 million for two years. Given that, again, Nyjer Morgan will start in the outfield, I see no problem with something like this for either Dunn or Abreu.
I don't think the Pirates should sign any free agent for more than two years; to do so would jeopardize their chances of contending in 2011 or 2012. In 2009 and 2010, though, they won't be contending.
In the past, I've been dismissive of the idea of dropping real cash on veteran free agents, and I probably will be again. Just so I'm clear here: generally, I don't think the Pirates should waste their money or future on expensive free agents, and I don't think the Pirates should, at this stage, sign any free agent who jeopardizes their future in any way: by blocking an interesting youngster, by preventing them from spending lavishly on the draft or Latin America, or by causing them to have to pay the free agent while he's declining and the rest of the team is very promising. But I think this market provides the Pirates a special opportunity to pursue legitimately good players without doing any of those things.
Free agents don't want to sign with the Pirates, so I'd say it's unlikely the Bucs get anyone like Dunn. Someone like Brad Wilkerson is much more likely. But at this point, I think Dunn is worth a shot.
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I agree.
What the PBC needs is (a) talent at (b) a good price. Usually, in free agency with the talent going to the highest bidder, clubs get (a) but not (b). Especially in the latter years of long contracts. And especially when players get hurt as they get older. Therefore, the PBC should generally stay away from free agents and long term contracts.
But this year, if it indeed turns out to be a down year for contracts, provides an opportunity to get both talent and a good contract. If you sign Dunn to $20 million for 2 years (I’d even do 3 years at $20-22 million if $5/year is the market given his relatively healthy history), then when the market goes back to reality, the Pirates PROBABLY have a good talent at a good price they can flip for more talent at a good price.
In other words, the odds are that an Adam Dunn at $20 million for 2-3 years seems likely to generate a nice return (either in the field or in prospects). Morgan doesn’t seem likely to generate a nice return in either.
by Bwillits on Jan 22, 2009 4:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That’s a really good point. We don’t want guys who will be taking up space in 3-4 years, but if we can sign him to a low yearly salary, there’s not much downside to adding a year on the end of it with the intention of trading him in a few years.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on Jan 22, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Pirates Need To Be Very Selective
Just for a minute, let’s forget about Martinez and Abreu and just look at Dunn.
The Pirates have absolutely no need for Adam Dunn. He would simply be a very expensive stopgap for your 2-3 years. Here’s what he bring to the table - home runs, walks, strikeouts and way below average defense, whether he is in LF or 1B.
The Pirates should put McLouth in LF this year and see what McCutchen can do in CF assuming that he has a decent spring training. Then platoon (lefty/righty) Moss and Pearce in RF. Keep Morgan around as a 4th outfielder should Cutch really falter badly or trade him to someone who covets “speed”.
The Pirates have to be extremely selective at this time in pursuing free agents.
by thegunner on Jan 22, 2009 4:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gunner-I like your plan
Not a bad plan. Dunn is temping but he did not make the Reds a winner so why would we think he would be an impact player for us?
McCutchen can’t start the season for us because:
1) It starts his clock
2) The Bucs AAA team plays in my hometown in April/May and I plan to see him. Tehy can’t call him up until after then. Soory guys, but that’s my rules!
by zogger on Jan 22, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
we’ll have to win without Ryan Vogelsong for a 3rd year. He’s signed with the Orix Buffaloes. I guess NPB just can’t get enough of the guy.
by patthatt on Jan 22, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well there goes any chance at any .500
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jan 22, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dunn
adam dunn would be a great add for the pirates..hes the left handed power pirates could use..hes averaged 40 homeruns for the last 4 season..playing at the reds ballpark also helped him…if we could get him or another free agent for cheap why not?…if it doesnt work out we could always trade him
by J King on Jan 22, 2009 5:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Would signing a Dunn cost us a draft pick? And would that be worth it?
by matskralc on Jan 22, 2009 6:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
the D'backs didn't offer Dunn arbitration
so I don’t think he’d cost any team a draft pick.
as to whether he’d be worth it, I think the answer is no, since Andrew McCutchen should be joining Nate McLouth in the Pirates’ outfield this year. I wouldn’t have a problem with Morgan, Pearce, and Moss competing for the other outfield spot.
by humbucker on Jan 22, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct, no pick.
Dunn was a lot more attractive to me when I thought we could shift him to 1B in 2010, with LaRoche being dealt at the deadline. If he won’t play 1B, as has been reported, he doesn’t fit the talent on hand nearly as well.
by Vlad on Jan 22, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And there’s no pick for Abreu, either.
by Charlie on Jan 22, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile...
… back on planet Earth.
Nutting isnt about to cough up serious money so that fans can experience the “excitement” of winning 65 games instead of 60.
by Orrington on Jan 22, 2009 7:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Free Agents
I understand where this post is coming from, but anything short of an outfield comprised of McClouth, McCutchen and Moss would be foolish. In fact I hope we see Tabata before the end of the year. If you want hope for 2010 then you had better hope the Pirates let these guys get roughed up in 2009. It is all about the innings and at bats at this point. My Red Sox friend is very high on Moss and the sooner we get to Cutch, Tabata and Moss the better, with Pearce as the fourth.
by Brett of Indy on Jan 22, 2009 9:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Why would getting roughed up in 2009...
…make them better players in 2010?
If they aren’t ready, they aren’t ready. Before the trade last year, Tabata was having a hard time at AA. Now you want him going up against Oswalt and Zambrano? He’d die!
by Vlad on Jan 23, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
how does that rebut what Vlad is saying? Read it again. Read it.
by EmmaOMG on Jan 23, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, it worked for Jose Guillen
You can’t tell me Guillen wouldn’t be the player he became if we didn’t rush him. Can you? You can’t! Ha! Case closed. Might as well get Alvarez, Lincoln and Morris some lumps too while we’re at it. Builds character.
by azibuck on Jan 23, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
oh my god.
you’re cam bonifay aren’t you!
by johnnycuff on Jan 23, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why Dunn is interesting
I would be cool with signing Adam Dunn or even a guy like Ben Sheets, whose stock is dropping faster than General Motors because of injury concerns. The reason I am interested is because these guys have trade value, Dunn more so than Sheets because of the injury problems. The return for a guy of that caliber should be great. When you are the PBC what you are looking to do is to acquire as much talent as possible. Signing Dunn could be a means to do that. a 14 million dollar investment might turn into four good prospects. That’s the angle I think people are missing.
by kjcity520 on Jan 22, 2009 9:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let's be real here
You all know that John Lennon and I both believe that we just need to “give Pearce a chance”, but it does no good to waste time urging things that just ain’t happening.
Pearce is going to AAA – Huntington hates watching him flail away at breaking balls. Even a monster spring won’t help him – the powers that be will just use the old excuse “he’s getting hits off guys that’ll be boxing groceries once we get to April.”
I love the potential of Cutch too, but he’s not opening the season in the bigs. Current management is too smart to start his free agent clock ticking.
But my ears will bleed if I have to listen to Nyjer Morgan starting in LF. He won’t hit a single HR the entire year. He’ll overslide 2B on steals, throw to the wrong base, and get caught between bases every single time. The radio guys will praise his running catches, ignoring his awful jump on the ball.
There’s nothing wrong with a Lofton or Sanders kind of signing, especially with the idea that the player could bring a half-way decent prospect the end of July in a trade to a contender, and that the PBC will only pay about 100/162 of his salary.
The question is “who” and “how much?” Boras would lose 1/2 his clients if Manny came to Pittsburgh (though it’s been tons of fun watching him botch the whole Manny situation). Abreau and Dunn aren’t coming either — PBC should be trying to get someone on the cheap, and eventually some team like Washington or SF will offer these guys something near market and something a lot more than a one year deal.
The PBC should be looking for a Lofton/Sanders kind of guy — that is a guy much older than Dunn’s 30 that has something to prove. My suggestion is Garrett Anderson. He (and I) think he can still play LF, though the market doesn’t. (He played 82 games in LF last year and 60 as a DH, but a lot of this was because Vlady’s ego refuses to let him DH and the Angels have 2 gold glovers in Hunter and Matthews, Jr. to juggle, as well as Rivera.)
He’s already cashed a $3M buy-out check for 2009 from the Angels (rather than pay him $13M to stay) so he ain’t looking for top dollar. He’s a great clubhouse guy, classy player, smooth outfielder when his legs are right, and has averaged almost 525 AB over the last 4 years. His OPS hasn’t shown much drop off, and in the weaker NL it’d probably be near his career .796 (course he’d hardly be hitting in front of Vlady or Mark Teixeira with the PBC).
He’s nowhere near as exciting as Dunn, but he struck out 77 times in 547 AB last year (Dunn can K that much in 2 months). The A’s and Ray’s have had talks with him on a 1 year deal, but not recently. Maybe $6M? (less than half what Dunn expects) Biggest problem — he won’t want to change leagues at this point in his career.
by WstCstBucco on Jan 22, 2009 10:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
One suggestion...
Morgan will hit 1 HR (instead of none)…but it won’t leave the building…some outfielder will trip over his own feet…and Morgan will get an inside the park HR because he doesn’t have to worry about oversliding home plate.
If Garrett Anderson is truly healthy and comes cheaply, I’d rather see him in left than Morgan. However…I figure that whoever starts the season in left won’t be there much beyond Memorial Day. Shortly after that…Cutch will be in CF and Nate will be in left.
by Thunder on Jan 23, 2009 3:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He could miss a base
Not being used to the traction he can get on “major league dirt”, he may rocket around 2nd with so much speed he’ll never make the turn at 3rd without spinning out. So he’ll just round the 3rd baseman, the 3rd base umpire, and the 3rd base coach and motor on home hoping no one noticed.
Also, I predicted 1 (ITP) HR for Mr. Excitement last year at WHYGAVS. It was only 1, but it was a wind-aided pop that he just barely tucked over the fence and inside the foul pole I witnessed in person.
by azibuck on Jan 23, 2009 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If somehow
Nyjer could be playing center field every time Nyjer came to bat, I’d give him 10 HRs, all inside the park.
by bucdaddy on Jan 23, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want a Lofton type...
…then it’s worth mentioning that Lofton is still out there. He didn’t play at all last year because he couldn’t find a situation with a starter’s job and guaranteed money, but he hit .296/.367/.414 as a full-timer in 2007.
by Vlad on Jan 23, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My vote (which counts for nothing tangible)
Save the money for the draft and international free agent signings.
It’s hard to imagine anyone but the Yankees trading quality prospects for talented veterans. So, signing Dunn, say, may not bring a bountiful haul at the trade deadline.
Steve Z
by steve_z on Jan 22, 2009 10:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boy, that took awhile
but somebody finally said it, thank God. I’m fine with them making a run at .500, because I think it has to help create an atmosphere that is better than a constant 65-win room. But is Dunn, or Dunn and somebody else, going to make this team 16 wins better? Unlikely. We need that stable of young homegrown talent that MIL and TB have. Last year’s draft was a step in that direction.
And the idea of signing anyone because of their trade value should be discounted by now. Granted, it won’t be DL making the trades, so maybe we ought to give Huntington a chance, but I think you’re outsmarting yourself if that’s a consideration when you sign somebody. Sign because they give you a better chance to win every night.
by KPatrick on Jan 23, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
garret anderson
i think he would be a steal if we could get him…hes old but …nyger morgan or anderson,…take your pick..
by J King on Jan 22, 2009 11:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Garret Anderson????
No no no no no and hell no. After watching this guy in SoCal for the last 10 years, the last thing the Pirates need to do is keep some youngster down for the chance to watch a guy that made Joggin’ George Hendrick look like he busted his ass up the line.
If they have money to spend and actually would loosen the purse strings, why not shoot the moon for someone like Dunn for two years? Are you telling me if Texiera (sp), Delgado or Youklis goes down right before the trade deadline that the Yanks. Mets or Bosox wouldn’t give up a couple prospects for him? He would be the epitome of a rental and may be gone before Mccutcheon even is ready to set foot in Pittsburgh. Or, they could trade Laroche, who (even if he doesn’t deserve it) may make more than that next year and slide Dunn into 1B for a year and then trade him.
Dunn would be motivated to show that everyone made a huge mistake by not signing him when they had the chance. I like this, but doubt he would sign with us. And that’s the moral of the story, isn’t it?
by Rubble44 on Jan 23, 2009 6:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't want to totally get off on a tangent, but . . .
. . . I’ve also watched Garrett for over a decade, and listened to the fans in the stands and Barney here parrots a lot of what I’ve heard muttered at the stadium. Some LAA fans never cottoned to Anderson because he’s so smooth — he gets perfect position, a tremendous jump on the ball and glides to make the catch. Angel-fan grew up watching Edmonds and Erstad crash into fences at full speed (earning long stays on the DL), and think that’s how to play the OF. PBC fans grew up watching Clemente and appreciate style.
Below are links to 2008 fielding charts for Garrett Anderson and Jason Bay. Anderson can’t get to the alley in Angel Stadium like he used to (Bay never could), but otherwise he looks a lot better than Bay (damning with faint praise?).
http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/DisplayCharts.py?PlayerID=2&fpos=7&year=2008
http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/DisplayCharts.py?PlayerID=1717&fpos=7&year=2008
I wouldn’t want Anderson if it would keep a young guy from getting a chance. He’d never be part of a rebuilding process. The point is if the PBC stands pat with free agents, they’ve made it absolutely clear that even before the first game of spring training the decision has been made — us fans’ll get to watch 100 games worth of Nyjer Morgan. I just can’t handle that kind of pain.
And the $5-7M it’ll cost to get Garrett doesn’t compare with the $30-35M 2 year or $70M 4 year contract Dunn is looking for. If the Yankees Mets or Bosox wanted Dunn, they’d sign him now. He’s a totally known quantity. What Charlie is saying is that the PBC should look for a Sanders/Lofton kinda player — someone who is a bargain cause teams think he’s washed up and can’t play in the field. I think he can — Anderson thinks he can. Statistically, if his wheels stay on he can play LF. Offensively, he’s one of those guys who’d come off his death bed and hit ropes.
He hasn’t had a sniff from a ML team in over a month. All I’m saying is — low risk, potential high reward. Why let the A’s get him for basically nothing?
by WstCstBucco on Jan 23, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Sheets
People,
I believe that I am largely to blame for the lengthy debate a few weeks back regarding whether the Pirates should rule out making intelligent forays into the big league FA market at this time. I felt they should, though many disagreed.
FWIW, I don’t think Adam Dunn is a good fit given the number of young outfielders that we need to evaluate and the fact that I just don’t think Dunn is a particularly good player.
On the other hand, as someone already posted above, I think Ben Sheets does make sense. Because he is a starting pitcher he wouldn’t be blocking anybody, you do not lose a draft pick, you are buying at low value and the upside is high at a position of need. If there is one thing we had reaffirmed last year it is that you can never have too much starting pitching.
The bottom line is that ownership should be able to afford to do all of the things they are doing regarding amateur talent acquisition and still be able to pay decent money towards intelligent big league acquistions. There aren’t a lot of FAs that I would consider good options for the Bucs, but Sheets is a prime example of the type ownership should be going after. And given the current environment the chances of landing him and the amount of money you would need to “overpay” him are probably at their low point. Get whilst the gett’ns good.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jan 23, 2009 8:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sheets is a Type A who was offered arbitration
So he would cost us a pick. I’d love to add one talented free agent if it doesn’t break the bank, is a 1 or 2 year deal and most importantly, won’t cost us a pick.
by Chad Bahamas on Jan 23, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
then i stand corrected...
and never mind. I wouldn’t give up a first round pick for him.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jan 23, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it would be a second round pick. But I wouldn’t give that up, either.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Garrett Anderson
I saw him play in the Arizona Rookie League in, I believe, 1990.
He was a classy, quality ballplayer who handled himself very well, and I predicted big things for him.
BUT:
1) He can only now be counted on as a DH.
2) There is no way that he could cover LF at PNC, and that is the only place he can play.
3) Even if he were signed by the Pirates, it would have to be at a very low guaranteed salary with incentives and I doubt that would be acceptable to Anderson.
4) I think that you will see that he signs with a West Coast AL team.
Garrett Anderson in no way fits the Pirate rebuilding program.
by thegunner on Jan 23, 2009 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm not so sure about Dunn
His OPS is still shiny, but I think he (without exaggeration) gives about half of that back because he’s so atrocious on defense. His UZR was apparently 23 runs in 2008 and the +/ system gave him a -29 in 2007, which comes out to about -24 runs. (I don’t think he had enough games in LF in 2008 to qualify for the trailers list.) Baseball Prospectus gives him 29 batting runs above average for 2008. He’s worth (generously) about 7 runs above average overall. That’s not counting the fact that our pitchers are likely to allow more balls in play than Dunn’s did last year.
Now obviously we’d kill for just average outfielders, but, for the sake of our pitchers, I think we might be better served going for someone who is about league average offensively and better defensively. If McCutchen develops and is able to come up by midseason, that would be a huge step in that direction, particularly since I think he’d force McLouth to left. As a stopgap or an insurance policy, maybe we could pick up someone like Jacque Jones (Bill James projection: .258/.324/.402, 2008 UZR/150: 25.3 in a very small sample). Heck, Jeff Salazar appears to be a pretty good corner outfielder defensively and can probably come close to league average on offense.
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 12:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Err, don't know why it did that strikethrough
Sentence should read: his UZR was negative 23 runs and the Plus/Minus system gave him a negative 29 in 2007.
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More possibilities
Bobby Kielty (platooning with Salazar): career .881 OPS against lefties, above average in RF
Nyjer Morgan (no joke): at least one projection system (Marcel) has him cracking a .750 OPS, and, however ugly it looks, his defensive value by UZR is through the roof
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Could do worse than Kielty.
Bats from the right side, decent defender in a corner. He missed a lot of time with a hand thing last year, though. We’d need to do our DD on the medicals.
by Vlad on Jan 23, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clearly you're making that up about Nyjer
Ask anyone here.
by azibuck on Jan 23, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which part?
The .750 OPS projection (?!) or the excellent defense (?!?!). I’m much more skeptical of the first than the second, since his range numbers are indeed spectacular.
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Both
Not since before last season can I think of a time when he was spoken of in a remotely positive way, for any facet of his game. The .750 OPS does seem high. I think he’d need 20 triples to get that.
by azibuck on Jan 23, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I pretty much agree about the OPS (though a .700 + baserunning value is definitely possible if optimistic). His UZR numbers however, have been fantastic each of the last two years. He doesn’t look good to my eyes either, but the numbers don’t lie (by that much).
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Burrell-like contract?
I wouldn’t mind Adam Dunn at something like what Pat Burrell received from the Devil Rays (2Y/$16M). I’m not letting him play LF at PNC park though – so, maybe RF? I can’t get too excited for Abreu and the idea of Manny playing for the Pirates seems absurd.
by wickethewok on Jan 23, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Dunn would have to play RF
Which forces Moss to LF, which I would guess is another defensive hit because of his knee injury.
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But Dunn won't sign for 2Y/$16
If he’d take it, I’d do that too — but he wants that much per year for 4 years (4 years/$60-65M). Don’t think he’d go for that much a discount.
Last add on Garrett Anderson’s defense – last year Garrett’s UZR was +6.2 defensive runs in left-field. Jason Bay was 15.5 for PBC/Sox in 2008. (For comparison, Brian Giles in 2003 - the year he was traded to SD — was a combined +1.7 in LF.)
by WstCstBucco on Jan 23, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please ignore the strike-thru
Sorry!
by WstCstBucco on Jan 23, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he wants that much per year for 4 years (4 years/$60-65M)
doesn’t mean he’s going to get it, especially in this market. given the number of free agent outfielders still available he probably won’t. he certainly won’t get that from some independent or japanese league team, though i imagine he could do some serious damage if he played in japan.
by johnnycuff on Jan 23, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn's last demand . . .
3 days ago per Washington Post — Dunn wants 4 years, $56 million. Nationals passed, but still want him. Post reports they’re good with 4 years but looking for something between $40-52M. Dunn’s already turned down 1 year $15M deal. Also he told BoSox he won’t play 1B.
Post says Dunn won’t sign until after Manny. Dodgers have said they will turn to Dunn if Manny passes on a 2 year/$45M. Nat’s could go after Orlando Hudson in lieu of Dunn.
All in all 2 years/$16M for Dunn sounds like a total pipe dream to me. Post says Dunn could sign tomorrow if he’d take 4 years/$40M. Signings of Burrell, Milton Bradley and Raul Ibanenz got GM’s thinking $10M per year is top salary for a first class, slightly tarnished OF.
I still say Garrett Anderson at $6M for 1 year is looking good.
P.S. Like the new uni’s. Red will never work for me for PBC, and I hated the bluetooth cap thingee.
by WstCstBucco on Jan 23, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile, we have new unis...
Finally, something good-looking, classic and tasteful. Wish they had gone for a 1940s-style alternate, though. Here are the new designs:
by RichieHebner on Jan 23, 2009 3:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
don't forget
moises alou. philly is having trouble making a deal with him because he’s looking to be more than just a bench player, and the pirates have that sort of playing time for him, where he could showcase himself in a platoon and get dealt to a contender in need of an outfielder at the deadline. at this point, considering his age and injury history, he’s not going to get anything more than a one year deal and would come reasonably priced.
by johnnycuff on Jan 23, 2009 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Alou
He’s incredibly injury prone at this point. We’d pay him a good chunk of money and have him be pretty good for a month… And then we’d be stuck with Morgan again (which might not be as bad as it seems from just looking at his batting line — see my posts above :).
by shayborg on Jan 23, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Andruw Jones still available?
Or is it clear that he is done? I imagine he would at least be a serious upgrade defensively over Dunn or Anderson.
by WestCoastBuc on Jan 23, 2009 6:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Boras says . . .
. . . Jones will sign late next week. 8 teams have expressed an interest, says Mr. Honesty.
Even though Jones is owed $21M by Dodgers for 2009 ($5M now, $16M deferred), Boras will not talk to any team that (a) offers a minor league contract, or (b) wants to pay Jones ML minimum.
Braves are in the mix, but no deal yet. Cox feels like he must bring him back out of loyalty, and Jones was seen last week at a Ga. Tech BB game sporting a Braves cap.
This is all from Atlanta Constitution. Other sources say Braves will offer a $1M one-year contract with tons of incentives. Boras is asking for a $5M base salary plus incentives. Jones does not want to play for anyone other than the Braves.
Jones hit .158 last year, struck out 2 of of every 3 ABs, and ran the outfield like Jackie Gleason would if his pants had fallen down around his ankles. His UZR last year was +3.7 — Garrett Anderson’s was +6.2.
Jones started at 170 lbs., played for the Braves at 210 til 2007, the Dodgers listed him at 240, and he was easily 250+ last year. After hitting .148 and striking out in 50% of his at bats, his team in the Dominican Winter League cut him. Dodger fans — who are the nicest in all of MLB — call him “Jabba.”
All that and the bottom line is that this is just another guy that just won’t play for PBC. He’ll be a Brave.
Stick with Garrett Anderson.
by WstCstBucco on Jan 23, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
thanks for all of that. I didn’t realize Jones had gotten fat; probably not a good sign for a CF.
by WestCoastBuc on Jan 23, 2009 8:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates won't compete for a couple years, so a 2-3 year contract for a veteran free agent seem like a waste of money.
Possible benefit would be exciting fans and being able to trade him away in a year or two for prospects.
With their extra money, the Pirates should be looking to extend young players through arb and free agency for cheap, and stashing it away for a free agent or two down the road.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 23, 2009 7:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
What young players do the Pirates have who would be worth extending through free agent years, at this point? I honestly don’t see any.
The Pirates (probably) have tons of money. Spending extra when they’re ready to contend shouldn’t be an issue, with or without signing a free agent now. And they’re already spending a ton on Latin America and the draft.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maholm, Capps, McLouth, Doumit (for 2012 and 2013)
It seems to me that any extra money the Pirates have now would be far better spent on these guys who may start to get pretty expensive soon than on someone like Dunn or Anderson.
by WestCoastBuc on Jan 23, 2009 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those are nice players, but they’re just not that good. I wouldn’t want a 4-5 year commitment to any of those players, at this stage.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At any price?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 23, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At any realistic price. The Pirates already have an option on Doumit for 2012-2013 and control Capps, Maholm and (I think) McLouth through 2011. Capps is a reliever and Maholm is (frankly) just the latest starter to have a good year. Every year one of them has one, and the next year or the year after, they’re back to square one. I’m not saying that’s going to happen to Maholm, only that he’s not really good enough to make the risk worth it. I suppose they could sign McLouth, but if his offensive production drops off a little and he can’t play center in a couple years—and I think both those things seem likely—then he’s back to being a tweener. I like McLouth, but again, these aren’t the sort of players who are really good enough to worry too much about. The Pirates have already talked to McLouth about an extension and found that he and they have radically different ideas about his value, so I’m fine with them just leaving it there.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not arguing that
they should be locked up to a long-term deal now. Only that there is a fair chance one of them could surprise and we could regret frittering away $10 to $25 million on a two-year deal for Anderson or Dunn instead of having it available to resign one or more of those guys beyond there arbitration years.
by WestCoastBuc on Jan 23, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure the Pirates have the money to do both.
(I’m no fan of Anderson, though.)
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm probably just hopelessly optimistic
When a player on the team that I root for has a good year, I think maybe he really does have a lot of talent and that good year is something he will build on to have even better years in the future, even though it is probably more likely that the good year was somewhat of an aberration and subsequent years will be worse.
Still, I think there is something to the logic of not squandering money on expensive FAs in years in which the possiblity of contending is remote, but instead saving it for use in years in which contention is a realistic possiblity, if not to resign current players then to use on FAs then. If the Bucs have, say, $300 million to spend on player salaries over the next 5 seasons, doesn’t it make more sense for them to spend $40, $50, $60, $70, $80 than $60 in each year of the 5 years?
by WestCoastBuc on Jan 23, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Particularly Maholm
All this talk about signing him to a multi-year deal doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. He is a nice piece, but not a major piece and we are buying high because he is a low ceiling player coming off a career year.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Jan 27, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Almost anyone would be, at the right price.
Or you wait, save the money, and spend it when the studs shake out.
The Pirates have tons of money? Really? Pittsburgh’s not exactly a large market, is it? Where’s all the revenue coming from?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 23, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know—you tell me why Milwaukee and Cincinnati can have payrolls $20-$30 million higher than the Pirates. The Bucs’ payroll is rock-bottom, or near it.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 8:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, sure, I'll give you $20MM.
Years of ineptitude will kill attendance and revenue streams. But the potential for even more is certainly there.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Jan 23, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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