Must... Have... Mientkiewicz!
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 9:58 PM EST
78 comments
Pirates fans' infatuation with Doug Mientkiewicz is really weird.
More on PirateFest here.
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Not sure but hey
I think he’s a excellent utility player would pretty much plays anywhere quite competitively. He brings good leadership and a great fire to a pretty young team that needs one lit under there butt. Also he’s cheap…..why not????
1.God 2.Family 3.Bucs!! 4.Food
by Gfmotorsports on Jan 23, 2009 10:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
infatuation with Doug Mientkiewicz
This has nothing to do with ability or promise or much of anything future-oriented. It does deal with memories of Pirates past. It deals with an “If I’m gonna go, I’ll go down swingin’” attitude that is reflective of the community. The guy acts like he cares. He manifests some sort of transcendent pride apparently derived from wearing the shirt and hat. Accordingly, this infatuation doesn’t seem all that mysterious to me.
"Never mistake motion for action." - Ernest Hemingway
by SubLime on Jan 23, 2009 10:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100%
The Pirates have thrown away enough money on other things. This is ONE player…not a whole lot above MLB’s minimum wage. If it benefits the Pirates clubhouse and mindset of building toward a winner…then I am for it. Have Doug around another year…and see if there is interest in a future as a coach, etc. Turn a short term situation into a long term benefit…even if it is not as a player.
by Thunder on Jan 23, 2009 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said it was mysterious. I understand it. But I think it’s weird. Maybe “absurd” is a better word. To even put Mientkiewicz in a list of all the grievances Pirates fans have… well, it’s strange.
by Charlie on Jan 23, 2009 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We just LOVES the scrappy
“brings good leadership and a great fire” and a 104 OPS+
“The guy acts like he cares” and hits like he doesn’t.
Meh. I didn’t see any of Mr. Fire’s intangibles rub off on any other Pirate, did you?
Guess there are worse cheap guys to have on the bench, but don’t expect him to do much on the field to, you know, actually help win many ballgames.
by bucdaddy on Jan 24, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like this one:
My favorite line of the night came from Coonelly: “Matt Weiters was the minor league player of the year. He should be a Pirate. We won’t make that mistake again.” I don’t believe that’s company-line-speak from the big man; I think it’s gospel. Pirates fans sure oughta hope so.
I bet it is gospel, because Matt Weiters got Dave Littlefield fired.
by WTM on Jan 23, 2009 11:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
This is the one I thought was weird, bizarre, absurd, etc.
As anyone who attended can attest, the management Q&A session tonight saw the gathering of about 400 fans pepper Frank Coonelly, Neal Huntington and John Russell with pointed questions and comments uncommon to this usually friendly forum, most of them disapproving of the team’s quiet offseason.
Just going from memory and the implication here, but weren’t the Littlefield sessions pretty much sweetness and light? DL played to the rank and file and they liked the BS he fed them.
On DougM, he’s a good bench/UT guy, but also pretty fungible in that regard. I’d rather have a lower OBP, higher SLG guy that could win a game with one swing of the bat coming off the bench, but whatever.
WTM, you know your inverse proportion rule about catchers’ hitting/defensive ability? I feel that way about Fieriness™. If a star hitter ran himself into easy outs like Doug, he’d be booed and be known as a bad baserunner and not worth the money, etc. But a low-paid average-to-crappy player gets applauded for the same stuff. A bad player can be fiery no matter what. A good player can only be fiery if it works.
by azibuck on Jan 24, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nichols Rule of Catcher Defense
I guess we can have Doug’s Rule of Scrappiness. Or Crappiness.
Just going from memory and the implication here, but weren’t the Littlefield sessions pretty much sweetness and light? DL played to the rank and file and they liked the BS he fed them.
I’m very curious about this. I think there’s certainly an element of DL being all about spin, whereas Coonelly and Huntington really seem to be trying to level with people. I just finished reading “Dealing,” which is a small book written by an Akron sports reporter about the Indians under Mark Shapiro. Indians’ fans appear to have been even angrier when the Tribe were rebuilding than Pirates’ fans are now, and it comes across very clearly that the more management leveled with the fans, the angrier they got. If there’s anything we’ve learned from the politics of the last several decades, it’s that most people would far rather be lied to than told the truth, even when they know they’re being lied to.
I’ve also noticed, though, that there’s a level of hostility with some Pirates’ fans toward current management that just didn’t exist with McClatchy and DL. Very hard to understand, given that nearly all fans will readily acknowledge just how disastrously incompetent those two were. And there’s very clearly far more hostility directed toward Nutting than there ever was toward McClatchy. This is in spite of the fact that Nutting, to anybody who’s paying attention to the facts and not just going into knee-jerk whining mode like Gunner, is a dramatically more competent owner than McClatchy was.
To take just one example, as a result of Kovacevic’s reporting, McClatchy was well aware of DL’s utter failure in Latin America and admitted as much. Yet he did absolutely nothing about it despite having years to address the problem. Nutting took over and almost immediately dragged DL—unwillingly, according to Kovacevic—to the Dominican. Which guy would you rather have as principle owner? Yet there’s an intense and seemingly very personal animosity toward Nutting from some fans that I never saw with McClatchy. Now, I’m not saying Nutting is a good owner as that’s yet to be proven. I just don’t understand why there’d be so much more hostility directed at him after two years than there was at McClatchy after 12 years or whatever it was.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point...
IDK, maybe people, while hating McClatchy, still give hime credit for PNC and keeping t he Pirates in the Burg when it seemed possible they could move. Only other explanation is that people are so pissed they hate everything about the FO and the distrust will continue as long as we keep trading veterans. I think most baseball fans don’t unerstand, or believe, that the plan the new regime is following is the best way to build a “sustainable” championship caliber club. FC and NH aren’t looking for a 3 year windown like we had in 90-92. All I hear from people when they find out I’m a Pirates fan is “it must be tough for you, every time you get a good player you trade him away.” They look at it as Pittsburgh is this small market with crappy, cheap owners who won’t spend money. They really don’t grasp the utter incompetence that was DL and KM. When they see Bay and Nady traded all the see is more of the same. So the hate and distrust continues.
by Slick1 on Jan 24, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello WTM!
While Nutting may be the owner now, in name now (and according to MLB requirements), the Nutting family, and Robert himself, have been overseeing McClatchy for at least five years.
McClatchy, his last two or three years, was merely a caretaker. It took about three years for Bob Nuttings’ cronies or other advisors to finally get through to him and convince him that changes needed to be made.
You think that it was the failure to draft Wieters that was the final nail in the coffin. I don’t agree that was the sole cause or Nutting would have been fired in July 2007.. The real death knell came after the nonsensical signings of Izturis and Morris.
So Nutting hired Coonelly and Coonelly hired Huntington and Huntington has made personnel changes in scouting and player development.
They hired Russell, and I think that he will be long gone before the Pirates hope to contend. It is true that they have increased their investment in Latin America and spent more money on the draft. We will see in three to five years how these things play out. Rene Gayo, a Littlefield leftover, is still in the picture.
But Bob Nutting knows NOTHING about the game of baseball and running a franchise.
You better hope that Coonelly and Huntington do.
I’m very uncertain… but you already know that!!!
by thegunner on Jan 24, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“McClatchy, his last two or three years, was merely a caretaker.”
Not according to Dejan. He’s reported repeatedly that the Nuttings were not involved in running the team.
Oh, but I forgot, you don’t like facts.
You remind me of some lines from a Talking Heads song:
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don’t do what I want them to.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Facts just twist the truth around. Facts are living turned inside out.
I love that song.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WTM - Do You Believe Everything Dejan Writes As "Fact"?
If I had a major investment in a business and was Chairman Of The Board, I sure as hell would be supervising things more closely, Maybe Nutting got more involved after enough people started telling him that changes needed to be made.
There is not a self-repecting “baseball man” alive today - or five years ago - that would ever have said or believed that McClatchy and Littlefield could have turned the Pirates around.
They were both totally clueless about both building a baseball franchise and about running a business.
What makes people believe that relatively young men like McClatchy and Nutting, who have never had to work for a living outside family-owned businesses, have the business acumen to do what is necessary to rebuild baseball in Pittsburgh or to hire the people that could.
It is very convenient for Nutting to claim that he wasn’t involved in running the Pirates until early 2007. But the fact that he may not have been more closely involved is no excuse for what has happened since the Nutting family has been involved (2001/2002).
Bob Nutting does not know a helluva lot more in 2009 than he did in 2002.
by thegunner on Jan 24, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course Nutting doesn’t know how to run a baseball team. He’s ACKNOWLEDGED that he’s not a baseball guy. That’s one of the differences between him and McClatchy. McClatchy has no baseball acument but thought he could run the team. Nutting brought in a CEO with a background in MLB instead of trying to act as CEO himself. You DO realize, don’t you, that McClatchy acted as CEO while Nutting is NOT doing the same? And you ARE aware, aren’t you, that the partnership agreement provided that McClatchy was entitled to run the team for a specified number of years?
Oh, right, there are those pesky facts again. Why do I bother?
Somebody please stop me . . . .
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Dejan says it's a fact, it's a fact.
When he just has a sense or feeling about something, he’s very clear that’s what it is.
Nutting is involved now, who cares why he didn’t get involved sooner. He’s taken action, and the people he’s hired have a direction and a plan.
What great owner is a “baseball man”? Steinbrenner? Henry? DeWitt? Moreno? Turner?
by azibuck on Jan 24, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But we NEED to believe Nutting was involved before! How else can we blame him for 16 years of misery?? How can we justify wailing and screaming and crying about how it’s all his fault if he just inherited a mess from McClatchy two years ago??? THE FACTS WON’T DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO!!!
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just going from memory and the implication here, but weren’t the Littlefield sessions pretty much sweetness and light?
Not living in Pittsburgh and never having been to PirateFest, I didn’t comment on this part, but that struck me as weird, too.
I do remember Pat reporting some tough questions at the PirateFest in 2006, when a little kid, like eight years old, asked Littlefield point blank what he was thinking when he signed Burnitz.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh ...
That linked story sickens me.
I know such fan reaction is to be expected, but why now, when things are FINALLY moving in the right direction? Where was the outcry from the average fan when Littlefield and crew were tearing apart the organization?
Sorry to say, but some of our fans are morons.
by woobie on Jan 24, 2009 2:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hate...
…when I visit my parents and they want to talk about the Pirates. “Why is it that, anytime you get somebody decent like Jason Bay, you have to get rid of him?” is the exact kind of Pirate fans they are, and my patience has worn thin trying to explain.
by matskralc on Jan 24, 2009 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe...
the fans at Fanfest just really hate Randy Johnson.
by Ketcham Bruce on Jan 24, 2009 10:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let's see...
Pirates management doesn’t want Doug on the roster…check. Pirates management doesn’t want Pearce on the roster…check. Pirates management has a backup 1B and OF signed to take their places…OOPS…never mind.
I wouldn’t be bothered at all without Doug or Pearce on the roster…IF and only IF…they actually had usable parts to replace them instead. Right now…those parts aren’t on the roster…now are they?
by Thunder on Jan 24, 2009 11:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Please...
Charlie don’t link to the posters on the blog anymore. I really like DK but I absolutely can’t stand most of the comments from the posters there. I’ve read some of the most nonsensical things i don’t know whether to laugh or throw up. And don’t even try to have a debate with thim because logic and statistics cannot be used. In their eyes NH and FC can do nothing right and are not willing to give Nutting the benefit of the doubt (I too am skeptical but am willing to let this play out before I decide whether Nutting’s commitment to winning is real). And I too can appreciate “scrappiness.” It’s kind of a Pittsburgh thing. They love the tough hardnosed players. It’s why the Steelers are so loved…there style of play embodies the spirit of the city (well that and the championships…). I think this Pirates team would have been a little more appreciated down the strecth had they not just rolled over at the end of the year. Anyway, the mancrush the posters on that blog have for Minty is beyond explanation. It goes way beyond simply appreciating his style of play and his “leadership.” Actually it’s kind of creepy. But it the end. Minty took on the big bad Randy Johnson so he has earnerd his way into the Steel City respect club. I think that more than anything is why the fans have taken to him.
by Slick1 on Jan 24, 2009 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’ve read some of the most nonsensical things i don’t know whether to laugh or throw up
Just don’t do both at the same time – we don’t want Charlie to have to hire a janitor…
by wickethewok on Jan 24, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I’m not linking to the commenters, I’m linking to the news.
It’s funny—when Dejan links to me, his commenters ask him not to do that anymore.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to laugh about the blog. Every time Dejan links to Bucs Dugout, somebody there will rant about how he shouldn’t.
In their eyes NH and FC can do nothing right and are not willing to give Nutting the benefit of the doubt (I too am skeptical but am willing to let this play out before I decide whether Nutting’s commitment to winning is real).
That’s roughly my attitude, too. On the whole, I think they’re headed in the right direction, but I’m not sure yet whether they have the unequivocal commitment to rebuilding that’s needed to do it successfully, and obviously we don’t know whether Nutting will shell out as needed once the team’s in a position where it might help. I get frustrated, though, because I spend all my time discussing them online in responding to the UFO fanatics who see cost-cutting conspiracies behind every single move, including what kind of sandwiches the FO orders for lunch. There aren’t really pro-mgmt and anti-mgmt views now. It’s more like people who are waiting to see how it goes and people who couldn’t care less about the facts because they’re too busy crying and wailing.
What we need to see is whether things will proceed like they have in Washington. There was a column in the Post today ripping the Lerners for being unwilling to spend. Like most people, the columnist’s view was that free agents are the solution to any and all problems on a baseball team. But he did point out some other things. When the Lerners took over, the Nats ran their first draft much like the Pirates did this year: some over slot signings and a real financial commitment. They also spent big in Latin America, including a $1.4M bonus to Esmailyn Gonzalez in a very controversial move, as he was not regarded as a top tier prospect. Since then, however, the commitment has vanished. They failed to sign their first round pick in 2008 despite a money difference that was very modest as these things go. They’ve done absolutely nothing in Latin America for about a year and a half. We need to see whether the Pirates will back off from their commitment to the farm system like the Lerners did, or whether it’s a permanent way of doing business, which it has to be for them to succeed.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post. The example of the Nationals is a little bit chilling. That organization is still a mess, and things looked fairly promising a couple years ago.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m REAL curious about the Latin America part. First, the Nats place a huge emphasis on Latin America, with a new facility and a lot of visibility for Jose Rijo, and the Gonzalez signing, which they expressly admitted was on the high side because they were sending a message to the buscones that they were willing to pay big bucks. Then they get heavily criticized in MLB circles for the Gonzalez signing, in the sense of, “There’s something fishy here.” Then the FBI interviews Bowden and Jose Rijo as part of the skimming investigation. Then the Nats completely pass on Latin America for over a year.
This is a major reason I’ve reconsidered my disagreement with Rene Gayo’s spread-it-around philosophy and his distaste for seven-figure bonuses.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love this comment on DK's blog...
- I hold no ill will towards the previous Bucco Mgmt team, yet I am completely fed up with the litany of losing, free agents past their prime, pierogie races, etc. – all I ask is for a competitive team – NOW!
- Personally I don’t hear anything different from the new Mgmt team versus their predecessors – DK did point out to me that those in the past were not the sharpest knives in the drawer and I’ll concede the point to him since he interacts directly – that said, I still don’t see any difference
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I cannot even rationalize what this person is thinking… I think my head might explode.
by EndlessMike on Jan 24, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
That’s what I was talking about. I think commenters like this really don’t understand the finer points of the game. Unfortunatelty, I think most fans are probably like this. That’s why any trade NH makes will not be seen as an attempt to improve but as evidence of another fire sale which proves this FO is a bunch of liars.
by Slick1 on Jan 24, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard to blame the casual fan for feeling this way, but it does make things really frustrating.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You really should read “Dealing.” The Indians would make a deal that actually increased their costs and the fans would accuse them of being cheap. They offered WAY more than they should have to Manny and Thome and the fans accused them of just dumping the guys without trying to keep them. The payroll went up and the fans said every move was motivated by cost-cutting. Jacobs sold the team because he wasn’t willing to keep footing the bill for a growing payroll, but the fans thought the Dolans were cheap. Basically, Jacobs and Hart got out because they knew they couldn’t keep doing what they’d been doing, and they left behind a barren farm system and an aging, overpriced team, but the fans couldn’t see it and the Dolans and Shapiro took all the blame.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm also reading "Dealing"
I’m only about halfway through it, though. Here’s a section that I just read, that I thought was very applicable to the Pirates’ current situation. It is referring to Mark Shapiro’s public announcement that the team would be competitive in three years.
So the business people didn’t appreciate Shapiro’s prediction of a three-year wait. That seemed like thirty years to them.
To the baseball people, it felt like thirty days.
It takes an awfully long time to completely rebuild a franchise. Many fans don’t realize that.
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
by MBandi on Jan 25, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I support what NH is doing, but I no longer live in Pittsburgh and seldom buy tickets to see the team. I can well understand why a PirateFest audience, which is going to buy a lot of tickets before the season starts, wants to know why the major league roster is being burned to the ground.
by Arnold Rothstein on Jan 24, 2009 3:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just Do IT
I don’t have a love affair with Doug, but if Neal had ears and brain he’d bring him back. Listen to all the fans who love this guy. By bringing him back Neal would be sending a big message: That he hears the fans and is willing to listen to them.
Doug won’t cost that much and his skills and leadership are worth it. Bring him back and please the masses. It can only help this team and front office staff who is slowly losing fans.
by letsgobuccos79 on Jan 24, 2009 3:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
His "skills and leadership"
manifested themselves in how many runs?
He’s a modern Mackowiak, or John Wehner, except a little better. For some reason fans latch onto guys like this. Maybe many of them can delude themselves into thinking, that guy’s not much better than me, so in pulling for him I’m pulling for myself.
Like a team full of players just a bit better than the best fans would win more than 10 games.
Trying to appease the fans got us into this mess.
by bucdaddy on Jan 24, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn't just bring "skills and leadership"
His “skills and leadership” didn’t help at all, but the .374 OBP and his above average defense certainly did. A lineup of Dirty Dougs would have scored 5.4 runs a game; the Cubs led the NL by averaging 5.31 runs per game.
The man will be 35 in June and only plays corner positions, so his value is obviously limited, but I think you guys are selling him short. He actually does have baseball skills. It’s not like he’s Jason Michaels.
by shayborg on Jan 24, 2009 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some Mientkiewicz notes
1. His leadership worked wonders after the two trades, when the team not only went in the tank but some players were visibly not paying attention on the field. Makes me think of the old line attributed to Napoleon or somebody like that who was expressing disdain for the Pope: “How many regiments does the Pope have?”
2. I’m fine with signing the guy for exactly the reason Shayborg gives. He’s no Jason Michaels, he’s actually a good player for a bench guy.
3. The single biggest reason to sign him is to shut up all the people acting like he’s the key to the Pirates’ future. Oh, but that won’t work, because the first time Andy LaRoche goes 0-3 the Mientkiewicz cultists will be wailing for Mientkiewicz to be given the starting job at 3B.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure you got that 5.4 figure somewhere
I know better than to think people on here just make stuff up (except for one guy). It just seems counterintuitive that a team full of hitters with little pop and no speed at all would outscore the Cubs just on a .374 OBP. The Cubs’ team OBP was .354, the best in the league, and they most certainly had some pop to go with it (first in the NL in doubles, fifth in HRs).
Can it all come from Dougie out-hitting their pitchers?
In any case, no way he’s with the team whenever we win again. I’d rather we look for a 25-year-old guy with the same skill set who MIGHT someday turn into Dougie M.
by bucdaddy on Jan 24, 2009 7:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What tool?
I went to http://www.baseballmusings.com/cgi-bin/LineupAnalysis.py
Do you use another? I’d be interested, thanks.
The best I could do was 5.06 using the 1998-2002 model, and also putting Doug’s 2008 numbers in all 9 spots. If I put .200/.300 in the 9 spot, it was just under 4.6 rpg, or about 745/year. He’d have to face more lefties too.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m OK with Doug, but he’s JAG.
by azibuck on Jan 24, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Serious question
Why do we care what the fans think?
I don’t want NH to care what I think. He has information and knowledge I don’t.
by EmmaOMG on Jan 24, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Amen
I love the fact that the front office rarely seems to consider the feelings of fans. Who cares what the fans think? Management’s only job is to build a winning team. Once that happens, any fans lost because we didn’t re-sign Mientkiewicz will return.
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
by MBandi on Jan 25, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can appreciate scrappiness
One of my favorite players was Lenny " Nails Needles " Dykstra.
As for Douglas, there are a few players that can take over his spots in the organization. We don’t need someone just for their popularity and grit. Although this would make many people, including my girlfriend, very upset.
I’d imagine Minky would be a cash cow in replica jersies and shirts.
by EndlessMike on Jan 24, 2009 4:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can appreciate Jason Bay
Seemed like the guy never changed expression. Didn’t get all up in people’s faces, didn’t look like he cared sometimes, watching strike three go by.
Help me out here, what’s his career OPS+?
131
And what’s Dougie’s?
100.
Fans think they’d love a team full of Dougies, until they actually have to watch it play.
by bucdaddy on Jan 24, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Remind me folks...
who will be our backup corner outfielders and corner infielders this year? Outside of Vazquez…I am drawing a blank??
by Thunder on Jan 24, 2009 5:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t follow from the fact that there’s a shortage that WE MUST HAVE MIENTKIEWICZ, though.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that...Charlie.
My beef…small as it is right now is simple. Not only does the Pirates “braintrust” seem to be thumbing their noses at Minky and Pearce…they don’t seem to be particularly proactive in filling the roles these two guys would fill. I guess the Pirates management figures that the NRI’s are going to provide our backup corner players? Or don’t we need them?? Are the LaRoche’s going to play 162 apiece? We going to go with 4 outfielders all year??
The fans see someone that COULD fill those roles. They don’t see the Pirates doing anything to fill those roles.
by Thunder on Jan 24, 2009 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I actually think Andy Phillips and Jeff Salazar have the potential to be pretty useful, probably as useful as Mientkiewicz. And there’s still a month left in the offseaon. I just don’t see any reason to freak out about it.
I also suspect positional shortages have nothing to do with most fans’ concerns, although I respect that your concerns are different.
by Charlie on Jan 24, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, what we’re probably going to get is Craig Monroe, who’ll be about as useful as Mientkiewicz’s nail clippings.
by WTM on Jan 24, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that possibility does scare me
Adding Monroe to the 25-man over someone like Salazar would be a totally Littlefieldian move. I honestly don’t think it will happen, but still…
by shayborg on Jan 25, 2009 3:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why we need Mientkiewicz...
For someone to take the ball from the final out of our World Series win, of course.
by Sajak on Jan 24, 2009 6:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Three notions:
1. The press release for PirateFest mentioned just McCutchen and Walker as prospects who would appear. Is that all that were there? If the Pirates are trying to sell development to the fans, they should bring in a lot of the minor leaguers for the caravans and PirateFest.
2. Do they show Indy or Altoona games on cable in Pittsburgh? They should show a lot.
3. There should be three exhibition games played in PNC this year: Altoona v. Indy, WV v. Lynchburg, and State College v. GCL.
by Arnold Rothstein on Jan 24, 2009 8:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I missed something.
Here’s a link from the mothership.
A particular quote from FC has me a little puzzled…
“The free-agent market is not over,” president Frank Coonelly said during the second question-and-answer session with management this weekend. “We’re still being very active. I would be very surprised if we don’t … sign players that you would fall in love with this year, between now and the beginning of Spring Training.”
Exactly who is left out there that Pirates fans would fall in love with that is
1) In the Pirates price range, and
2) Would consider joining the Pirates organization ??
I think we can eliminate the big ticket guys right away like Manny, Dunn, Abreu.
by Thunder on Jan 25, 2009 12:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Clues
Dejan is reporting a “bench piece,” other than Doug, might well be signed. The Jenster at mlb.com is reporting they’d like to have someone super versatile.
I realize this describes Yurendell DeCaster, but I’m sure it applies to others, too.
by Arnold Rothstein on Jan 25, 2009 2:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't hurt Steel
Wiggy. Pirates fans would fall in love with him if he hits. Can play, um…, can be placed at several positions, but what might work out pretty well is a straight platoon with Moss in RF. Moss doesn’t show much of a platoon split though. But with BigLaroche, Moss, Nate, Nyjer, Salazar, Vazquez and DougM all lefthanded, a righty UT with pop would be nice.
If you can block out his previous stint with Pgh, and his (in)ability to actually play 3B, he’d be a nice add if cheap enough.
Yeah, yeah, I know, Pearce. Sorry, I’m off Pearce.
by azibuck on Jan 25, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just breezed through the FA lists again.
I see a few possibles that MAY not fall into the 1) too expensive or 2) too old categories. First…let me say that the Pirates WILL NOT sign any Type A free agents…no matter the cost. That would require them to give up the #4 pick in the draft. There aren’t any Type A free agents that would come cheaply enough…and be around long enough to make up for it. If the Pirates are truly going to build from the ground up…they won’t give up that pick.
Keep in mind…I don’t know what these players are looking for salary wise…just that they probably don’t fall into the above 2 categories…and could fill a MI slot or a corner.
Alex Cintron…MI
Joe Crede…corner (big health risk due to bad back)
Erik Hinske…corner
Juan Uribe…versatile
Ty Wigginton…part 2…corner…sorta versatile
Brad Wilkerson…corner
And that’s really about it.
by Thunder on Jan 25, 2009 8:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
They would not give up their 1st round pick
Teams choosing from 1-15 give up their second round pick if they sign a Type A, not their first round pick. Which is still much too high a price to pay.
by matskralc on Jan 25, 2009 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If it’s Cintron, that really buries Bixler and Cruz, which is fine with me. He’d be an upgrade, sort of a Chris Gomez with a little more power and the ability to play middle infield.
Cintron + Vazquez >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gomez + Rivas
by WTM on Jan 25, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In one of hie stories today, Dejan said Crede’s not in the mix.
It might be Wiggy, because he is willing to move around. He’s made his reputation the last three years entirely by hitting well in the Tampa and Houston parks, so he’s a risk. He’s only hit .214 for his career in PNC, which is not easy to do considering that some of that has been against Pirate pitching.
by Arnold Rothstein on Jan 25, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wiggy said he didn’t want to come back to Pittsburgh. Not hard to understand, even apart from the poor performance—the fans booed him from the day he got there last time around. Then again, he needs a job.
PNC is a very bad park for RH power hitters. That’s one of many reasons I think Monroe would be a disaster. He’s a RH hitter whose one and only asset is modest power.
by WTM on Jan 25, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't surprise me that Crede might not be in the mix.
He’s pretty much glued to 3rd base…and that would mean trashing Andy LaRoche…which this management team won’t do…even if he’s hitting a buck fifty again.
by Thunder on Jan 25, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
it’s going to be Wiggington. There are a couple of teams interested in him and I think his price tag will be too high. I have a feeling it’s going to be Hinske. Not sure why but I think that’s who we’re going to get. I think I’d rather see Salazar get a shot.
by Slick1 on Jan 25, 2009 12:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You guys DO realize
we’re expending all this energy talking about a guy who is at BEST the 15th best/most valuable Pirate, which technically places him among the 25-30 worst players in major-league baseball.
Don’t you?
by bucdaddy on Jan 25, 2009 10:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yep...sure do.
OTOH…we could just ignore the Pirates…let them lose 120 games each of the next 3 years…and watch them get contracted. Is it too much to ask for the Pirates to attempt to put a decent team out there? No, it isn’t. This team will be offensively challenged. We’ve added no offense to a 95 loss team. We’ve added no pitching to a 95 loss team…we’ve added no defense to a 95 loss team. In fact…with Morgan in LF…one could argue the defense will actually be worse…but not by much. Is the entire team going to improve by leaps and bounds?? Not bloody likely. A few perhaps…but not most.
Get my drift?? We’ve got management saying this team is going to be better. Sorry…I don’t see it. Who is going to get held back if we sign someone…whether it’s Doug…Dunn…or someone else. Pearce has been buried. Neil Walker will be. Neil Walker has NO CHANCE to make the 25 man roster…short of a bus crash in spring training. The only one getting held back is Cutch…and I don’t think it makes any difference to management who plays the OF until it is late enough in the season to start his clock.
Whether the talent is there, or not, Pirates management could probably tell you the 25 man opening day roster right now…and only miss by maybe one or two slots. Hell, I could tell you right now…and probably only miss 1 middle infielder and 1 RP at most. I believe I’m reaching the point where I feel this team’s management appears to be taking a leak on us…and trying to tell us it’s raining. They have said the hell with this year.
I’m all for what they’ve done with the draft and Latin America…but I guess this will be a year where the nightly promotions are more important to management than the games. Gotta keep the suckers (oops, I meant fans) coming back. I’ve been a Pirate fan for 45 years (and I’m only 50)…and I never remember being this disheartened going into a season. No, I’m not in Pittsburgh…I’m 1000 miles away…but I do plunk down my money for MLB.com to watch the Pirates on the Internet…and used to get Extra Innings…so I do have a small investment in how the team performs.
by Thunder on Jan 25, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello, Thunder!
Ignoring the Pirates is an alternative, but not a very good one if you are a fan of the business of baseball.
And I think that you are.
I was born and raised in Pittsburgh (my first 21 years), but have been gone since the mid-60’s.
I’m glad that you are beginning to see the light.
Others will too, as long as they “keep watchin!”
by thegunner on Jan 26, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"this team’s management appears to be taking a leak on us"
That’s an unfortunate view. You DO realize that they’re trying to recover from 15 years of management that shat upon us? And they’re going about it the right way, IMHO.
They can sign Minky AND Dunn if you like, and Ben Sheets, too, but really, the impact these players would have on the win column is modest at best — far more modest than most fans would ever believe. If you think Sheets would make this team 20 wins better and Dunn would make a 15-win difference and Minky’s worth 10 wins or something ridiculous like that, and they’re gonna boost us into contention against teams like the Cubs and Brews, that’s just delusional. I’d guess the three of them MIGHT improve the team by 10 wins, if everything went right (and keep in mind Sheets would still have a popgun offense behind him, even if Dunn were in it).
So what? So they can be just bad instead of awful? Would that make you happy?
I get the point you want to see better players on the field, and you’re tired of waiting. I probably wanted to drive when I was 12 too. Would you like to have been on the same road with a 12-year-old me coming the other direction?
Sorry. This is gonna take time. It might not be the only way but it’s the best way.
by bucdaddy on Jan 26, 2009 9:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
bucdaddy - I'm Not Interested In Dunn, Sheets or Minky...
They aren’t the answer.
But waiting three to five years to see any improvement at PNC is also not the answer.
There are specific ways to turn things around faster - but I’ll keep them to myself for now.
by thegunner on Jan 26, 2009 10:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
There are specific ways to turn things around faster – but I’ll keep them to myself for now.
Understandable. Personally, I know a sure fire way to turn the economy around and put an end to terrorism. I just don’t think the time is right to let the world benefit from my brilliance.
by WTM on Jan 26, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see the point I made has been missed.
If the Pirates have no plans to improve the talent level at the major league level this year…management shouldn’t sit there at a fan function and tell the fans how much better the team will be this year. And right now…there is no new talent better than what we had the last 50 games of last year…at any position. Just guys a year older. Or weren’t they giving 100% last year?? A couple of guys might be more healthy…but do we expect this team to go through the season with NO injuries?
It would take a “Perfect Storm” for us to win 82 games with this bunch…and I don’t expect that to happen. I look forward to a few years from now…where one of two things will happen. 1) Pirates start playing competitive (I don’t even require a winning record) baseball and I continue to follow them. or 2) it becomes obvious that this management team is no better, and I find another team to support or quit watching the game entirely.
by Thunder on Jan 26, 2009 12:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
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