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We Stole Hinske

Since I heard the news that we signed Hinske for 1.5 million, Ive just been thinking how that happened. Of course the economy is affecting the prices of players, but 1.5 million for a guy that hit 20 home runs last year? Thats a good bargain if you ask me. Check this article out. I found it on ESPN. The Twins signed Kubel for 7 million and hes like the same exact player. The Twins are in the position we usually are after another team signs someone. I love it. Good move Bucs.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3866726&name=Neyer_Rob

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.

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Kubel is younger.

He may have more upside than Hinske – in addition to the age thing, his ML career was impacted by a major knee injury (in 2005, I think?) so his straight stat line may not be entirely representative of his current abilities.

None of that makes Hinske any less of a good signing for us, of course.

by Vlad on Jan 30, 2009 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Then again, Kubel is essentially a DH now and isn’t exactly going to get more athletic over time. His hitting may still improve a bit but for some purposes he might as well be 35. The knee injury was really bad.

by WTM on Jan 30, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Hinske & Maholm signings...

… show good decision making.

At least in theory. We’ve stabilized our projected costs on Maholm, so we have one less variable in the out years. If he does well, he’s probably tradable to some team that needs a 4th or 5th starter. If not, we still haven’t wasted as much as the Yankees do on a whim.

While Hinske may not be the “perfect” bench player we needed, he’s a good one and a particularly good one for 1.5 million. IF he has a solid showing, we may be able to flip him f/someone of value near the trade deadline. I’m not saying we’ll get another Tabata or 4 prospects, but he’s a cheap investment that almost cannot hurt us.

by Trogluddite on Jan 30, 2009 10:48 PM EST reply actions  

Half the price of Wigginton...

And I thought the Wigginton deal was a steal. The only major difference between Wigginton and Hinske is that Wigginton is a slightly better defender and can play second. All this makes KC’s Bloomquist signing look that much more ridiculous.

by uneasy rider on Feb 5, 2009 9:57 AM EST reply actions  

Wigginton has been better than Hinske each of the last 3 years

Wigginton 2006-2008 Win Values (via Fangraphs):
1.5
1.4
3.0

Hinske 2006-2008 Win Values:
1.1
-0.2
2.0

Now I’ll give you that Hinske is a decent bat, but he shouldn’t really be more than a platoon player. Good value for the money, but nothing to get too excited about.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 7, 2009 3:47 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll agree that Wigginton has a better bat,

but I think it’s closer than the Win Value’s indicate. Wigginton had a swing built for Minute Maid and this helped to give him extreme home/road splits
baseball-reference

Although, the more I look at it, Wigginton was effective against both righties and lefties last year, whereas Hinske was terrible against lefties, albeit over a very small sample size. That may well have had something to do with the difference in salary.

by uneasy rider on Feb 7, 2009 10:45 AM EST reply actions  

Isn't it a plus though -

for a banch or platoon player to have large splits?

by WestCoastBuc on Feb 7, 2009 3:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously?

I’d sure rather have a guy who can hit everybody.

by bucdaddy on Feb 7, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

No

you want a guy who can’t be neutralized by a simple pitching switch.

by Brendan Scolari on Feb 7, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

There are pluses and minuses to both

A guy with no splits will generally work better as an emegency starter if one of your regulars is out for an extended period of time. A guy with big splits will let you punch above your weight tactically in most other situations, as long as you deploy him intelligently. Bablue’s point about pitching substitutions is valid, but you can mitigate that somewhat with good balance on the rest of your bench, letting you re-counter with a different PH if your opponent goes to a situational reliever. In the end, There are opportunity costs to both kinds, and you just have to decide which type of limitations bothers you less.

It’s also worth noting that as a class, ALL RHBs will regress toward an identical platoon split, given enough years’ worth of ABs (by which I mean an identical ratio of #s vs RHP to #s vs LHP, not identical raw numbers). It sounds totally crazy, but it checks out 100% if you look into it. Thus, only L/R batting splits for LHBs or switch-hitters have any real predictive value going forward.

Something worth keeping in mind if you’re trying to take advantage of platoon splits when building a bench.

by Vlad on Feb 8, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

That does sound crazy

Is that data aggregated anywhere…or do I just have to look at a bunch of vets’ stats individually?

by DITO on Feb 8, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't have it...

…but it might be floating around somewhere on Teh Interwebs.

If you’re willing to trust other people’s work, there’s a pretty good article about it here, with some aggregate numbers. And MGL’s posts in this thread also may be useful [MGL is Mitchel Lichtman, a former stat consultant and advisor for the Cardinals, and one of the authors of “The Book – Playing the Percentages In Baseball”, if you’re big on pedigrees like Gunner.].

by Vlad on Feb 9, 2009 9:42 AM EST up reply actions  

That is very interesting

Have there been explanations advanced as to why that is true of right-handed hitters but not lefties?

by WestCoastBuc on Feb 8, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I saw a theory...

…that it’s a function of selection pressures on the population of amateur talent during the scouting stage.

According to the theory, if you took a large population of people who didn’t play baseball, selected at random, and had them play a whole season’s worth of games (distributing playing time equally), then you’d probably have identical distribution curves for platoon splits on both LHBs and RHBs. But since there are so many more righties than lefties in the populace, and therefore more RHPs than LHPs in professional baseball, there’s an unnatural pressure on the population of amateur players, such that the guys who are particularly helpless against RHPs are selected against in high school and/or college, and thus never make the pros. And since it’s generally easier for people to hit against pitchers who throw from the opposite side, the selection pressures against LHBs and RHBs are different, so they produce different graphs. A lefty batter who’s totally helpless against LHPs can have a long and productive career as the strong half of a platoon – just look at Ryan Klesko. A righty batter who’s helpless against RHPs is going to get cut from his jayvee team and become an accountant, even if he can really mash against LHP.

There probably are a few RHBs whose true-talent abilities are much different than the conventional 1.09 ratio. The problem (as MGL notes in the posts I linked above) is that for any given player with anomalous splits, the odds are much, much higher that it’s a fluke (which will regress toward the 1.09 in subsequent seasons) than that his splits are a reflection of an unusual talent or skill – and there’s no way to tell the one from the other beforehand.

by Vlad on Feb 9, 2009 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Rob Neyer...

…has another theory here, which is related but not identical to the one I described.

by Vlad on Feb 9, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

It is almost enough to make me wish I had time to dust off my old statistics books and take a close look at the data, but not quite.

by WestCoastBuc on Feb 9, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Vlad, I'm Actually Somewhat Open-Minded!...

and I looked at the Neyer and Lichtman inputs that you linked.

I think that there is a definite place for the “new statistics/sabermetrics” that have spawned a whole new baseball following over the last 25 years or so. I think that there is a definite value, for example, to the ability of getting on base (high on-base percentage), high walks to strikeout ratio for hitters, low strikeout to at-bats for “contact-type” hitters, etc.

But there are many people that, I believe, use statistics in the wrong way. Many think that there is no value to the sacrifice bunt in any situation. Many feel that stolen bases are overrated. I believe that the game situation, the pitcher, the hitter and so many other factors determine the optimal play at any given time.

It is often a mistake to generalize that “such and such a play is a bad strategy”.

Baseball is steeped in tradition and changes slowly!

When I was working in New York City in the late 60s, I met two brothers who had worked for IBM, Harlan and Eldon Mills, who were working on new baseball statistics long before anyone ever heard of Bill James. Their pet statistic was called the “player win average”. They even wrote a soft cover book (“Player Win Averages”) which I no longer have, but I am sure that it is probably available somewhere. They, of course, met with extreme resistance from the Commissioner’s office and from Elias or whoever was keeping official major league stats. They felt that the “player win average” was a better way of determining a player’s true value, much like Beane, through DePodesta, developed their “theories” for finding undervalued players.

Incidentally, it was the Mills Brothers who put together the NBC Sports computer tournament of the 10 greatest baseball teams of all time that run during the baseball game of the week pre-game show in 1970. They used all of the actual player stats and fed them into a computer to determine the winners of each hypothetical game. These pre-game shows were very highly rated. I forget who won.

As for the ability of righties to hit lefties more effectively (and vice versa), I have always
believed this to be true. Most managers also believe it or they wouldn’t pinch hit hitters to have righties face lefties (and vice versa) or they wouldn’t bring in a relief pitcher to have a righty/righty or lefty/lefty matchup. Neyer and Lichtman may say that it reverts to only a 1.09 advantage, but I say that each specific situation dictates the proper move. Writers and researchers can ascribe all kinds of sabermetrics to it, but the fact is that, in most situations, a good non switch-hitter would rather face a pitcher who throws from the opposite side.

A lot of this is psychological, but I can tell you that it is a lot easier to hit a breaking ball that is coming “into” you.

As an aside, in the late 80s, I met with the President of a major league baseball team. I told him that I felt that his left handed hitting first baseman, an accomplished player at the time, was not very effective against left-handed pitching. He told me that this player was equally effective against lefties and righties.

I checked his splits later that day to see that he hit about .290 the previous season against RH pitching and about .240 (if that) against lefties.

The individual I met with in the late 80s is still the President of a major league franchise!

by thegunner on Feb 9, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions  

Sorry, that's not what I was trying to say.

I’m not saying that there’s no difference between a RHB and a LHB when there’s a LHP on the mound (or vice-versa). I’m saying that if you have two RHBs with the same overall offensive numbers, but one has a huge platoon split and the other has a tiny one, they’re both going to regress toward the same ratio in their split the next year (i.e. the one who crushed lefties last year is no more likely to crush them next year than the one who didn’t). Platoon advantage is a different and very real thing, as you say, and it’s one of the best ways for a manager to improve his team’s chances in a game situation. I apologize if I was unclear.

On the sac bunt thing, most sabermetrically-inclined people recognize that there’s a place for the sac bunt (or at least, the smart ones do). Successful sac bunts slightly increase your chances of scoring one run in a game situation, and if you’re down by one run in the ninth or tied in the 14th inning, that’s a perfectly viable strategy for the situation. The problem arises when managers get bunt-happy and start doing it in situations where there would be extra advantage in getting more than one run, as the sac bunt greatly decreases the odds of a multi-run inning. Lloyd used to make me pull out my hair because he’d call for the sac bunt in all kinds of inappropriate early-game situations. I think I can remember one where he called for the sac bunt in the first inning of a game at Coors Field, where we ended up losing by like five runs. I wanted to jump through the TV and kill him. To get the most out of the sac bunt, like any tool, you have to know when to use it and when to leave it in your utility belt.

I do think that the SB is sometimes underrated by at least casual sabermetricians, in that a guy generating a lot of baserunning runs isn’t going to be credited with them by a measure like OPS or OPS+. On the other hand, I think a lot of more traditional analysts overrate the stolen base a bit because they don’t account for the opportunity cost in a guy getting caught stealing, so they don’t see the difference between a guy like Tim Raines and one like Juan Pierre.

I also agree that backseat driving on managers’ decisions is sometimes counterproductive, in that the manager sometimes has knowledge about things that a fan doesn’t. If a reliever was having shoulder pain during warmups, for example, or a bench bat was out drinking the night before, a manager might be right to not make the “obvious” move.

I absolutely buy your story about the club president. Funny and sad at the same time.

by Vlad on Feb 9, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you being sarcastic?

I think so, but it’s kind of hard to tell.

by Vlad on Feb 9, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Not sarcastic

If the conclusion is that there is really no such thing as a lefty masher, then OK, read no further, I won’t disagree.

Maybe I just don’t understand how the coin flip analogy relates to this.

And the outliers goes to the question (mentioned in one of the links), is it detectable, and if so, is it significant? If there’s a RHB with a ratio over 1.09, I guess we can all make up our own minds as to what is significant. If it’s 1.25, I think it’s kind of silly to ignore, regardless of what the regression equation says. The regression equation simply may not apply to that player, that year. It’s not a percentage play.

by azibuck on Feb 10, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

The coin flip thing...

…is just meant as an illustration of the signal-to-noise ratio in the RHB population. Like if somebody gave you a box with a thousand dice, and told you that one was loaded, and you could roll each one four times and then had to guess which one was the loaded one. The odds of getting the same number four times in four rolls with a single die are 1 in 216 (if you don’t care which number comes up all four times).

by Vlad on Feb 10, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Crap, premature post.

Thus, if you’ve got 999 un-loaded dice and you roll each one four times, the expected (most likely) scenario would give you six dice that rolled true all four times: The loaded one, and five others that just happened to fall that way.

If there are true lefty-mashers out there, they’ll be buried under a big pile of non-true lefty mashers, and you’ll be hard-pressed to tell the one from the other in the moment. As such, the most rational strategy is to not pay for lefty-mashing ability, unless you’re absolutely rolling in dough and can afford to take low-percentage gambles, since the odds of you correctly discerning it are not in your favor. They’ve taken populations of guys who were extreme outliers, and looked at them the next year, and as a population they regressed to the mean just as hard as the population of players as a whole. There may be a few real ones in there, but how can you tell?

All of this kind of presupposes that a lefty-mashing ability, if real, is something that will (like most offensive skills) persist through most of a player’s career. If it’s not, it would be nigh-impossible to detect, but if it’s not, then there’s not much point in paying for it or planning around it, is there?

by Vlad on Feb 10, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Paying for it, yeah

I wouldn’t think anyone should shop for lefty mashing. But in season, I think a severe platoon split is a valid play almost all the time.

Your dice explanation makes sense. Thanks.

by azibuck on Feb 10, 2009 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

No problem

Always glad to help, if I can.

by Vlad on Feb 10, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Great Move

This is a huge steal, even if he doesn’t produce this year, the Bucs have a guy that can teach the young players how to hit.

The Trade-Maker

by dasox313 on Feb 12, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions  

Isn't that

Dale Long’s job?

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST

by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 12, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions  

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