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Jason Bay Headed to Free Agency

USS Mariner on Jason Bay:

He’s 31 years old, right-handed, and not really much an outfielder anymore. He has classic old player skills. In fact, he’s eerily reminiscent to some other free agent the M’s blew a lot of money on.

Bay, 2009: .267/.384/.537, 15% BB%, 30% K%, .269 ISO, -13.9 UZR, +3.4 wins
Sexson, 2003: .272/.379/.548, 14% BB%, 25% K%, .276 ISO, -9.6 UZR, +3.9 wins

The numbers are from Sexson’s last healthy season before the M’s signed him – you’ll recall that he missed most of his contract year with a shoulder problem, but then went right back to being the player he was before the injury. Interestingly, Sexson was actually headed into his age 29 season when the M’s signed him, so Bay’s actually even further into his decline phase than Richie was. Richie made better contact than Bay does, if you can believe that. Their power levels were similar, and they both offset the low batting averages by drawing a bunch of walks.

In terms of skillsets, they’re basically the same player – quality (but aging) power hitters who don’t fit the park and play defense like a DH. These are the types of players that make the worst free agent signings. Power is overvalued in the market, while defense is undervalued, so sluggers almost always get paid more than they’re worth. Toss in the fact that this skillset doesn’t age well, and you have a recipe for disaster.

Well put. Bay's a nice player, but he's past the phase of his career where he was an intriguing young player, and is now an increasingly scary commodity. He doesn't make contact quite as well as he used to, he doesn't play defense, and he runs gingerly. Obviously, he's still a very good player and he may have some good seasons left, but this is not the kind of player you want to pay market value for. 

A couple of points here:

1) The return for the Bay trade so far hasn't been so hot, clearly, but I hope it's clear that trading him was, at least, the right idea. Bay is now an impending free agent and might have played his last game for Boston, which failed to sign him to a long-term deal. If Boston couldn't do it, then the Pirates almost certainly couldn't have, not that they should have wanted to anyway. 

Bay is a Type A free agent, which means the Bucs would have probably received compensation picks for him, but I'm not sure Andy LaRoche and Bryan Morris aren't worth more than those comp picks anyway, and they certainly were worth more than those picks when they were acquired.

2) The case of someone like Sexson shows how small-market teams can compete even with the deck stacked against them. Since Sexson wasn't yet eligible to become a free agent, the Brewers were able to sign him before the 2001 season to a cheap four-year, $17 million deal that carried him through his age-29 season. He then signed a backloaded $50 million contract with the Mariners that quickly became a debacle because he only had two more decent seasons left in him. 

Bay just turned 31, and he's only now reaching free agency. Whoever signs him is very likely to be paying more for what he did in Pirates and Red Sox uniforms than anything he's likely to do going forward. It's obviously way too early to shut the book on Bay. Obviously. But there are lots of warning signs there, and most of the time a player's best seasons come before he's eligible for free agency.

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brandon moss

if moss was worth “two cents” the bay trade would have been worthwhile for the pirates. moss plays with no energy, does not hit for power, can not steal a base (unless the pitcher is blind) and is only an average outfielder. by the way c. hansen’s career might be over! EVERY COIN HAS TWO SIDES! i am sure the sox do not feel like they lost out on this deal!

by Pilgrim34 on Oct 11, 2009 11:12 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Moss...

Had a 6.5 UZR this season and has an 8.5 UZR/150 in the OF in over 1400 innings. So to say he is an average fielder is not accurate. Boston, I’m sure, was pleased with the Bay trade. But they traded Ramirez so they did give up quite a bit. Moss has definitely been a disappointment offensively but he’s been pretty good in the field. Maybe if he played with more energy he’d hit a little better (that was sarcasm). A lot of people don’t like the Bay trade and our early returns have not been great but we should at least try to stick to the facts when evaluating it.

by Slick1 on Oct 11, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Craig Hansen's Career...

Yeah, he might not be able to pitch again, but are you saying we should have known about his condition?

I know we have the best medical staff in baseball, but your expectations are way too high.

by H2O on Oct 11, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moss would hit for power if he could make contact more often.

But I doubt that will ever happen. He was never a good hitter for average in the minors either. Whereas LaRoche has a very good minor league history of being an overall good hitter, Moss really doesn’t. If you can’t hit near .300 in the minors, you’re probably going to hit under .250 in the majors.

by MarkInDallas on Oct 12, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, I dunno.

He was a career .287 hitter in the minors. That’s nothing special, but it’s not a portent of disaster, either.

I mean, it’s only six points under Njyer’s career total in the minors – and with a lot more power.

by Vlad on Oct 12, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s almost exactly the same as Andrew McCutchen’s career minor league average. They played in the same leagues for the most part, although McCutchen was generally a bit younger.

by ElDuce on Oct 12, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

morris and laroche

i do not know about morris, but laroche will never amount to anything more than a back-up. he has no power at all and if he’s plays second his lack of range will surely be demonstrated!!!! the pirates, unless morris turns out to be a quality pitcher, really got nothing for bay!!!!!!!!

by Pilgrim34 on Oct 11, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche's lack of range?

Wow, are you a scout? You seem to know more about LaRoche’s defense than Perry Hill does. Since when does a realistic (and deserving) Gold Glove candidate have bad range? I think Freddy Sanchez made the 3B to 2B switch pretty well, why can’t LaRoche?

And is there something wrong with a second baseman hitting 12 HRs in his first full season? Let me see… if Freddy Sanchez is the greatest Pirate ever (which would be reasonable to assume, due to the reaction after the Alderson deal) and he hit .271 with 9 HRs in 2008, then wouldn’t a player who hits .260 with 12 HRs (in his first full season) seem to be a little bit more promising. Granted, Sanchez usually hangs around .290-.300, but still, Andy would seem like more than a “never amount to anything” player.

by H2O on Oct 12, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Andy hit .328 for half the season.

That’s right. For 47 games between 4/16 and 6/8, he hit .331 / .402 / .458. And in 26 games between 9/2 and 10/4 he hit .323 / .364 / .570.

That’s sustained production over those long stretches of games, not like last year’s McLouth where he hit .500 for 14 games and .260 the entire rest of the season.

So in 76 games, he hit extremely well. The problem was in the other 76 games, Andy hit .189.

The injury he suffered last year usually takes a year or so to fully recover strength from. In his late power surge, the ball was jumping off his bat markedly differently than earlier in the year. There were some very impressive homers, and lined shots off the wall. I think that’s a very good sign for him to hit for the power his history shows he can muster.

All Andy needs to do is not suck in the down times, or to minimize those times, and he should hit .290 / .350 / .480. And his defense won’t be the liability Jason Bay’s is.

I predict Andy has a higher WAR than Bay beginning next year.

by MarkInDallas on Oct 12, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...

Andy had a 2.6 WAR this year to Bay’s 3.4 and they are players trending in diferent directions. I wouldn’t not be surprised at all to see Andy with a higher WAR next season.

by Slick1 on Oct 12, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The two homers

we saw him hit in the last home game were jacked. Andy seemed to have only warning track power most of the year, but the first HR carried and carried to center field and the second one hit much of the way up the LF foul pole. One game is almost the ultimate small sample size, but still.

by bucdaddy on Oct 12, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The wind was blowing out….

LaRoche is actually quite close to being a useful ML hitter, esp. at 2B – a bit more power, and a bit less cavernous cold streaking. People have been pointing to his 3 good months, but it’s not like he’ll just magically double that next year; I just want to see his cold spells look more like .240 than .200.

by JRoth95 on Oct 13, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Andy...

I think we all were hoping for a little more but I think he showed enough in the last month to give a reason to be optimistic he will continue to improve next season. He hit for more power in the last month and admitted that he was trying to “refind” his swing most of the season and was focussing on hitting line drives. I too am a litte skeptical that he will make a smooth transition to 2B but he was pretty good at 3B and worked hard to get there. Hopfully he can continue to improve offensively to offset the likely hit will take defensively switching him to 2B. That being said I truly believe he will perform better than Young at 2B.

by Slick1 on Oct 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't matter

You lose the argument because you had fewer explanation points.

by WTM on Oct 11, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Moran? LIke Bugs Moran? Slick1, better watch out for Al Capone.

by TheLizardKing on Oct 12, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would you care to elaborate?

Can’t tell if you are being sarcastic of if you just think I’m a moron. Which is no problem I would just prefer to know which comment of mine set you off.

by Slick1 on Oct 12, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt a reference to this.

by WTM on Oct 12, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

I thought the excessive number of explanation points would tip ya off.

by IAPiratesFan on Oct 12, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally forgot about that...

until WTM pointed it out. Can’t believe I did though because it’s priceless!

by Slick1 on Oct 12, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder whether the guy in the photo realizes he’s a national laughingstock. Or maybe I should say nashenul laffinstok.

by WTM on Oct 12, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would guess....

Sean Burnett would have told him that.

by IAPiratesFan on Oct 12, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shoulda known

it would be a guy in a Cardinals shirt.

by maguro on Oct 12, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I need a keyboard with an explanation point.

Or is it one of those combo keys, like an em-dash?

by JRoth95 on Oct 12, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a pinch...

…you can use a 1 instead.

Like so1

by Vlad on Oct 12, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay's 09 season...

April 7 – May 21: 41 games, .301/.433/.657 13 HR.
May 22 – October 4: 110 games, .255/.365/.492 23 HR

He had an awesome first month and a half. Then he fell back to numbers that are below career average for Bay. It’s hard to tell if he’ll really get a lot of money or not. There’s the problem with his defense being terrible and like you said, he’s 31 years old. But there are still some dumb GMs out there (Ed Wade) who want aging power hitters and will throw away good money on them.

I really don’t pay any attention to the Red Sox, are they not interesting in keeping him for a couple more years?

by IAPiratesFan on Oct 12, 2009 12:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Theo Epstein won't pay Bay what he wants

A couple months ago Epstein and Bay broke off negotiations.

Epstein has publicly said he won’t pay Bay more than JD Drew money – $10M per year. Epstein says the economy is down and salaries are down all over

Bay is sure he’s better than Drew and thinks this is an insult. He’s been waiting years for free agency and wants his payday. He wants $15M per year for 4-5 years (but will takr $12M)

Epstein says he’s not going any higher. RSN says if Bay was a real Sox player he’d give the team a discount and take whatever Epstein offers.

Bay grew up in BC, went to collefe in Wash., and is rumored to be interested in Seattle.

by WstCstBucco on Oct 12, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Drew actually is better than Bay.

2007-09 wOBA:
Bay – .326, .387, .397
Drew – .346, .400, .389

2007-09 UZR
Bay = -11.5, -18.4, -13.9
Drew = -3.1, 6.4, 9.7

The only Bay advantage is games played (20 per year more on average), but even with less playing time Drew has been worth more wins over replacement. Drew gets a bad rap for being terrible and “un-clutch”, but the season numbers are actually still strong.

I agree with the Sexson comparison, and at this point forward I’d definitely rather have Andy LaRoche and Morris with the Bucs.

by Adam Reynolds on Oct 12, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting.

In Red Sox “Nation”, they think the players should give the team a discount and take whatever Epstein offers.

A good chunk of the Pirates fanbase thinks that Huntington should go out and try to pay whatever a player wants no matter how ridiculous it is.

by IAPiratesFan on Oct 12, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of RSN turned on Bay this summer

Same quote started popping up in multiple posts in several blogs:

“We can get a .270 hitting OF anywhere.”

by WstCstBucco on Oct 12, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Better to Trade a Year Early than a Year Late!

IMHO, NH traded Bay at just the right time. It was a good trade for us.

I am surprised with people’s change of opion about Bay. When he went to the Redsox last year, all the pundits were saying how great a player he was, good defender, etc. Now they say (in less than 18 months) that he is an “aging star”, poor defender, etc.

Either they know nothing (highly likely) or he has gone down hill really fast.

by zogger on Oct 12, 2009 7:22 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

18 months ago, he was going to be playing for Boston.

Now, he’s not. Simple as that.

by Vlad on Oct 12, 2009 8:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Truer words were never spoken, Vlad.

by WstCstBucco on Oct 12, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should have traded him even sooner

NH could have traded him to Cleveland for Cliff Lee in Spring 2008. Could have then flipped Lee for a better haul.

by EdOtt on Oct 13, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cliff Lee was so bad in 07

that he got sent to the miors and wasn’t on Cleveland’s post-season roster that year. I can’t even imagine the uproar on PBC Blog if Neal’s first move as GM had been to trade Bay for a pitcher with a 6.29 ERA. It would have been something to behold, that’s for sure.

by maguro on Oct 13, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My response to that proposal...

…is one of my biggest blown calls in my time as a fan/analyst. I hated, hated, hated the Cleveland package, and two years later, it looks like a ridiculous amount of talent and a huge overpay by the Indians.

That’s part of the reason why I lean toward giving NH the benefit of the doubt on moves that seem questionable at first glance.

by Vlad on Oct 13, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point...

and it’s believed that Coonelly killed that deal or it would have happened. He also, supposedly, killed a deal that would have sent Bay to the Braves. You’d think after the season the Lee and Schoppach had that year, and Guitterez had this year, ol Frank may be a little more hesitant killing deals in the future.

by Slick1 on Oct 13, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Remember there were two other players

Franklin Gutierrez, a player you can argue is better than Bay himself.

Second, Cliff Lee was terrible in 2007. But NH knew him well. He knew that he had gone into 2007 as a darkhorse Cy Young candidate. NH was spot on with the trade. Otter, you are right. Lee would have been flipped this year for an enormous haul.

Finally, Kelly Shoppach is a solid player. Great year two years ago. Struggled this year. But a catcher with 20-HR power is special.

FC should have stayed out and let the baseball people decide, particularly with a trade with NH’s former employer.

by Bernie6666 on Oct 13, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not arguing that it wouldn't have been a good deal...

obviously it would have been a great deal for the Pirates. I’m just saying that everyone in Pittsburgh would have hated it at the time. “Huntington is sending his old buddies in Cleveland our best players and getting a bunch of scrubs in return”. You know the drill.

by maguro on Oct 13, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

It would have been panned by the media and fans. No doubt.

But I just wish FC had stayed out. NH knew the players. He knew he had a steal.

Imagine how much closer they’d be with that deal plus the players Lee brought back.

But I guess that’s like imagining if DL hadn’t passed on Howard and taken BB with the first pick.

by Bernie6666 on Oct 13, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i can’t speak for anyone else, but i’m one fan who certainly would have hated that deal at the time. this is probably why i don’t manage a major league organization :)

by johnnycuff on Oct 14, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay

His value lies in a small left field, both offensively and defensively. We all remember the high fly balls he hit to left in PNC. That translated to over the green monster and HR’s in Boston. The short wall also translates to Bay being adequate defensively in LF.

I think he will resign with the Red Sox for $11.5mm per. His value to almost every other team is less than that number, so he’ll compromise and take the deal.

3 yr $34.5 – $35mm, back to Boston.

My opinion.

by God Loves on Oct 12, 2009 8:24 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Gut check time for Theo Epstein

He’s said he won’t budge above JD Drew money, no matter what.

Bay’s looking for some GM to pay him well over JD Drew money. Charlie’s excerpted quote above shows that some in Marinerland don’t want it to be their team.

I think that if Bay leaves Boston, the PBC won big on the deal. 18 months of Jason Bay and 3 years of Manny (now that his BA and power numbers are presumably non-chemically enhanced) aren’t worth what Red Sox and Dodgers gave up. Hindsight I know.

The Angel sweep didn’t do Bay any favors, btw.

by WstCstBucco on Oct 12, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, from the Bucs' perspective

It doesn’t really matter what the Red Sox ended up getting out of Bay. All that matters is what we got in return. So far, the returns aren’t great, but I tend to be more optimistic than most about Andy’s future, and Morris isn’t a lost cause, so I think the return could end up being OK.

by biggyv on Oct 12, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I am definitely not one of the masses

I am among those who think the Bucs should be intelligently aggressive with free agents. However, I agree with everything Charlie said and would consider it a mistake if the Bucs were to sign Bay for more than 2 years for anything remotely close to what Bay can reasonably expect to get.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Oct 12, 2009 10:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree

With team’s overvaluing prospects, you need to look at free agency.

Can you find the right fit? There are always a few values out there. Example: Juan Rivera.

Just don’t be signing 38-year-old former power hitters.

I also don’t think it’s all that useful to be signing #5 pitchers.

by Bernie6666 on Oct 12, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bay

I think Bay’s best value is as a DH. That takes the stress off his knee and keeps his bat in the lineup. It also helps to slow his decline.

As for the trade, I agree that the concept was right. But if the Pirates are going to succeed long term, they need exceptional scouts. I’m not sure the scouts got it right.

1. Andy LaRoche looks like a useful player at 2b. I think he’s athletic enough that he’ll actually be above average at the position. Not gold glove. But a dramatic improvement over DY.

2. Bryan Morris. The trade will turn on whether he can mature. The arm is there.

3. Craig Hansen. No one could have predicted the health problem so you can’t hold that against NH. But the control issues were significant. The team knew he was a project. He’ll be a project if he ever plays again.

4. Brandon Moss. I’m not sure what the scouts saw. I know Sean Casey raves about him. But I just don’t see it. Maybe he’ll develop the power NW talks about later. But he looked lost for most of the year.

by Bernie6666 on Oct 12, 2009 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Charlie.....

as the Red Sox are my “other team” in MLB,how about sharing your opinion on J-Bay with Theo?! Don’t know that he’s always been thinking too clearly of late…:)

by havildar on Oct 12, 2009 11:26 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Probably in the top 5 all-time Canadian position players too (some need to gain more service time before being ranked): Larry Walker is ahead of him (and Morneau probably will be) but I’m blanking on others.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 12, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joey Votto might someday be up there.

by Charlie on Oct 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not taking account finances at all

Would JBay make a good 1B for the 2010 Pirates?

by Mr. E on Oct 13, 2009 12:06 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Deal me in on this cockamamie idea

If Bay finds the market the same as Dunn did, where his best option is a short deal while waiting out the economy, I’d be curious to find out if he would/could play 1B for 1-2 years (but no more). No idea if he can play the position but it’s an interesting thought. It may be harder on his knees than OF though.

by azibuck on Oct 13, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He'd be good, but overpaid at $12M per.

Same deal as in the OF, pretty much.

I think he’s likely to find a friendlier market than Dunn did, insofar as there isn’t a huge glut of FA corner OFs this year, the way there was after 2008.

by Vlad on Oct 13, 2009 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I said it in another post,

but I’ll repeat it here.

I don’t see JBay getting $15M a year.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 13, 2009 8:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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