Stephen Strasburg Wins Muted Praise For AFL Debut
Did anyone else read this review of Stephen Strasburg's Arizona Fall League debut and wonder where all the superlatives went? Overall, it sounds like Strasburg pitched very well, getting two strikeouts and a bunch of grounders while allowing no runs in 3.3 innings of work, all in a hitters' league and against much more experienced players. (Jose Tabata, from AAA, got a hit and a walk off him.) But Strasburg's velocity was down from previous reports (to 98 MPH, which obviously most pitchers would kill for, although it was down to 95 by the third inning) and his curve wasn't as sharp.
There's nothing here that suggests that Strasburg will be anything but an ace, but the praise is much more muted than it's been in the past. Whereas before he was the "best prospect ever," now he's merely "a sort of right-handed Dave Righetti," who should begin his career as a top starter but end it in the bullpen.
Strasburg is clearly a special case, but it appears that even he, a once-in-a-generation talent, is mortal. This wouldn't be the first time that reviews of a prospect suddenly became mixed after he signed, and clearly this phenomenon isn't confined to pitchers. But compare the supposedly objective information in the BA article (98 MPH fastball that dropped down to 95 after two innings, with an 88 MPH slider) to the report from the Olney article (102 MPH fastball, 94 MPH slider) and tell me what happened there.
If a Strasburg-type player were available to the Bucs in the first round of the draft, they probably should consider taking him. But any lesser pitcher? I really don't know. Reports about a pitcher's velocity are almost always dubious, because radar guns aren't terribly reliable, because people tend to err on the high side, and because velocity comes and goes. The best way to read a report that a pitcher "touches 95" is to say that he probably can reliably throw 89. And so I think the best way to approach an amateur pitcher's stuff is to say that if he really does touch 95, or if he really does throw a hammer curve, there's at least a theoretical possibility he'll be able to do that in three years. That's something, since plainly there is a large group of professional pitchers who are very unlikely to ever do those things. But so much can change in between the time a pitcher is drafted and the time he arrives in the big leagues that it's silly to count on it. In the case of Stephen Strasburg, who can lose three MPH off his fastball and still be one of the hardest throwers in the league, that's one thing. In the case of a lesser prospect (read: nearly all of them), that's quite another.
As you all know, the Pirates passed on a variety of high-upside arms with the fourth overall pick in the draft last year and took Tony Sanchez instead. They then took a bunch of interesting pitchers in the later rounds, including Zach Von Rosenberg, Colton Cain, Victor Black and Trent Stevenson. They seem to get that amateur pitchers (and especially high school pitchers) are best treated as theoretical possibilities.
It's way too early to comment much on the 2010 draft, which isn't for eight more months. But a glance at Andy Seiler's excellent draft blog shows him choosing a pitcher, LSU righty Anthony Ranaudo, with the second overall pick. Time will tell if Ranaudo is a Strasburg- or David Price-type prospect, but if he isn't, I don't think the Pirates will pick him, or any pitcher. Instead, they'll go with a position player and take their pitchers later. Theoretical possibilities are nice to have, and every team needs a lot of them, but they aren't so rare that you can't just take them later. Hitters are much more reliable commodities.
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I like the bit in the article...
…about Tabata giving him trouble.
I think there’s going to be a quality option there for us at #2, even if we don’t know who it is yet.
by Vlad on Oct 20, 2009 4:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I should elaborate a bit:
One of the reasons I like the bit about Tabata is that Tabata is actually a month younger than Strasburg…
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If his date weren't genuine...
…he probably would’ve had visa problems before now.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd think so...
but some respected people in the business still have doubts about his age. Jim Callis wrote this about Tabata on 3 Aug this year:
Remains an enigma, and questions about his physique and true age linger.
by maguro on Oct 21, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but his only evidence is, “he looks older.”
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
by MBandi on Oct 21, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s important to keep in mind he’s pitched once, I think, since the NCAA tournament.
by Dorn on Oct 20, 2009 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yea, his conditioning might just be off...
He had to have had a period of inactivity since SDSU lost, the draft, and so on til now. He’ll probably be back at 102 by spring training.
by aso513 on Oct 20, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He apparently pitched in the instructional league right before this.
by Charlie on Oct 20, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another thing to keep in mind as far as the draft is what is available. Everything I’ve read said that the position players in this year’s draft are worse than last year’s…and the 2009 position player class supposed to be a mediocre class at best. Pitchers are susceptible to injury-every throw could blow out their elbow. The Buccos plan to pick up high end pitchers later worked this year…but there is no guarantee they’d be able to do it again. I still think you’re better off taking more talented players. Taillon and Ranaudo are head-and-shoulders above everyone else and until it changes, I think one of those guys should be the Bucs pick.
The assertion that Strasburg should be a power reliever is ludicrous to me…the value of Strasburg plummets if you stick him in the bullpen. Great…a last place team has a dynamite close! See how far that gets you. Pitchers don’t have their A+ stuff all the time-it happens. Now, if it keeps happening…well thats a different story.
by NastyNate82 on Oct 20, 2009 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Regarding your first paragraph, I guess I’m questioning what exactly “most talented players” means. 2006 was supposed to be a very pitching-heavy draft, but I’d hate to be one of the two teams who drafted Luke Hochevar or Greg Reynolds instead of Evan Longoria. Nine of the first 12 players picked in the 2001 draft were pitchers, and eight of the pitchers flamed out completely. (The other one, Gavin Floyd, took an eternity to get it together, and two of the three position players, Joe Mauer and Mark Teixeira, are superstars.)
Obviously there are position-player busts too, but position players are much, much less risky that early in the draft, and (without knowing too much yet about next year’s draft class) taking one usually doesn’t set you back much in terms of upside. In ‘06, for example, Andrew Miller was generally viewed as the upside guy, and yet it turns out that Longoria has been the better player by a mile. Clayton Kershaw and Tim Lincecum were selected later in the round, but tons of teams passed on Lincecum in particular. I don’t remember anyone criticizing the Pirates AT THE TIME for not selecting Lincecum instead of Brad Lincoln. With pitchers you’re really just tossing dice. Which is totally fine to do in the second round, or maybe even midway through the first round depending on the draft class, but until teams adjust their strategies with pitchers I think it’s very dumb to pop one earlier, unless it’s a Strasburg or a Price. Every year teams elect to spin the roulette wheel. I know Taillon is supposed to be very talented, but taking a high school pitcher with the second pick would, in my view, be insane.
by Charlie on Oct 20, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The team that drafted Reynolds...
…was very nearly us. He was supposedly ahead of Lincoln on Creech’s board, but fortunately the Rockies saved us from ourselves. Amusingly, I had actually predicted that Reynolds would be the pick that year, by employing the tried-and-true “worst plausible selection” strategy of guessing Creech’s behavior.
The consensus at the time held that Lincoln was a very reasonable pick in the spot where he was chosen. Kershaw was a very late riser (he was seen in the spring as a guy who might sneak into the back end of the 2nd, and then he had just a killer year), and a lot of scouts were worried about Lincecum’s unconventional mechanics, even though he had the best pure stuff. All three were seen as fairly equivalent high-first talents, along with Hochevar and Reynolds and Scherzer and Morrow.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much of the anti-Lincecum sentiment was based solely on his size? Even Baseball America said he had close to the best stuff in the draft going in. But Luke Hochevar and Greg Reynolds are tall drinks of water. Even Lincoln has 2 inches and 40 pounds on Lincecum. It seems like a poor scouting bias that tall = safer to them, when it really depends on the individual case.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some was size...
…but more was mechanics. It’s easy to forget how weird his delivery looked, now that we’ve been watching it for a couple of years, but at the time of the draft it was about a step and a half above a guy shooting balls out of his ass. There were dozens of scouts who thought he was an arm injury waiting to happen, or at best a future reliever because a starter’s workload would be too much for his arm to handle.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"shooting balls out his ass"
This is gold! (writes it down)
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 21, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know a girl
who can do things like that with ping pong balls…but it isn’t her arse…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 21, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry. By more talented players, I should have used higher-ceiling, even though that term is vague enough, I guess. I think its pretty much the consensus (even with the most die-hard Buccos fans) that Sanchez isn’t the 4th most talented player in that draft. That doesn’t mean he won’t be a regular, or an All-Star…it just means that people with more potential or prospects with higher ceilings were available.
My point is this, and I don’t think maybe I made it well in my earlier comment. I think pitchers fail mainly due to two factors: A) injury and B) flaws in their game get exposed as they move up levels in competition. Since it is such a crapshoot with pitchers, I think you should focus on the incredibly talented ones and take them if possible. The Bucs strategy of taking them later on in the draft worked this year…but what if they aim to do that again and then don’t sign three of their top four pitchers they pick?
And as far as position players being less risky…take a look at the #2 and #3 picks in the otherwise awesome 2005 first round. Alex Gordon and Jeff Clement. Or in 2003: Delmon Young and Rickie Weeks were the first two picks. There are risks just about everywhere with the draft, and there really is nowhere to hide from it.
Just as a general question to all involved…what are your opinions about high school vs. college pitchers?
by NastyNate82 on Oct 21, 2009 12:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
High school pitchers generally have more ceiling.
College pitchers are generally more polished and reach the majors more quickly. You can get injuries from either group – high school kids haven’t passed the injury nexus, while some college programs work their staffs like dogs (Rice used to be notorious for this – look up the track record of first-round arms out of Rice some time). If you’re really into having a system “way” of doing things, you’re sometimes better with high school kids, in that they’ve been exposed to less outside coaching.
In general, you should just take the guy you see as the best talent, regardless of age/location.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not exactly random chance whether a pitcher will drop off or get injured. A lot of it is mechanical. Mark Prior was a thrower who entirely threw with his upper body, which put too much stress on his arm. Tim Lincecum is the opposite. He uses every inch of his frame, and uses his legs and torso really well. I’d be extremely surprised if he ran into serious arm problems in the next 6-7 years.
Not every pitcher is a strict roll of the dice. If I was to take a pitcher in the first 10 picks, elite velocity and stuff is a must. But the player has to be mechanically sound as well. That greatly reduces the risk on the arm and shoulder. If those two factors are present and the pitcher is the best player available, I’d pick him up easily. There are other things professionals woudl pick up that I don’t. Off the top of my head, previous workload can be indicative.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There are plenty of pre-draft articles...
…that described Prior as having “perfect mechanics”. Mechanical guru Tom House described him as a “can’t miss” prospect. A lot of the time, reputed mechanical flaws are applied ex post facto when a guy’s hurt – and hindsight is always 20/20.
It’s the same way that in retrospect, everybody knew that Todd Van Poppel had a flat fastball, or that Roger Salkeld was an injury waiting to happen.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We know a lot more about mechanics now than even back when Prior was coming up.
Here’s a piece on Strasburgh from SB Nation:
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/9/5/607023/on-strasburg
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s another one in their archives where they’re predicting major shoulder injury in a few years:
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com/2008/11/18/665018/quick-note-stephen-strasbu
Much rather draft a guy with clean mechanics along with top velocity than one of these “superhumans” like Prior and Strasburgh.
Drafting a pitcher in the top round is more than chance, and I don’t think you can entirely blame a young workload for the Prior flop. Anyone can go bad, but if the scouts do enough homework you can really mitigate it and reduce the odds significantly with the right guy.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respect the DM guys' work...
…but a lot of the determinations in that analysis are low-margin judgment calls.
And while we know more about mechanics now than we did 10 years ago, we’ll probably know even more 10 years from now, and some of those pitchers who seem today to have “clean mechanics along with top velocity” will seem obviously flawed by the analytical standards of the near future.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it’s a developing science, and that they and I might be wrong. But we also know enough not to completely ignore warning signs when there are a lot of successful guys like Lincecum, and Yoani Gallardo, who are doing it perfectly. There’s no way to truly determine if Strasburg will last in the MLB, but if it looks like a Prior and quacks like a Prior, then I’m not sure it’s wrong to see him as higher risk where Gallardo (and guys who use their whole body rather than arm) is a lot lower risk for a pitcher. Risk for a pitcher isn’t one size fits all.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In your link...
…one of the commentators pointed out that Sabathia has been successful and durable with the same general mechanical set, which is a worthwhile point to consider.
I’d like to see some more pitchers use Lincecum’s mechanics before we declare them as being low-risk.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s another take that loves Sabathia and dislikes Strasburg:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/ProfessionalPitcherAnalyses/index.html
This lines up with almost everything I’ve read, as well as my own view. Stras just has really weird arm action. Sabathia looks a lot cleaner based on that animated GIF. And even if he was as bad, his beefy frame could absorb some of the damage done.
I can understand why scouts give this year’s #1 pick googly eyes when he hits triple digits, but there’s a pretty good shot that he doesn’t last in extended time in the majors. Moreso than guys with clear mechanics that can’t be ripped apart (even just based on what we know now).
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 21, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there's another side to that, too.
Since he’s signing with Washington, they’re probably only getting six years of team control. He doesn’t need to last as long as the pyramids – just until he reaches FA.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mark Prior threw 235 innings counting the playoffs
as a 22 year old, while Lincecom never hit 200 until he was 24. I know that Bill James wrote an article a while back arguing that pitchers with great stuff who find their control at a young age usually have worse careers than guys who reach the majors a little later. The reason he gave was that the heavy work load that a young pitcher in that catagorey is likely to experience is more damaging than to a player who is older.
Also, Dusty Baker was perhaps an ideal manager if one wanted to test this theory.
by WestCoastBuc on Oct 21, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you about the mechanics. If Bucs scouts find that both Taillon and Ranaudo have awful deliveries that could lead to injuries, then I would turn to another pick, whoever that may be. I have a question to people who have followed the Bucs much longer than I have: it seems that their 1st round picks on pitchers in the past were made mostly on signability rather than talent, with Moskos and Bullington being the primary examples. Does anyone remember that being the case with Burnett, JVB, and Maholm?
by NastyNate82 on Oct 21, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No.
In all three cases, the staff had them as the best available player, and the scouting consensus had all three going about where they were selected (albeit not as a pitcher in JVB’s case).
Honestly, even the Bullington pick was less about signability than about McClatchy’s preference for a college talent who’d move quickly, instead of a high school player like Upton. If you want indications of the team being cheap on the draft, you’d do better to look at consensus overdrafts at picks 2-5 (Corley, Welker, A.J. Johnson, etc.) and the parade of senior signs picked on day 2.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a helluva 1-2 punch to the gut…cheap management along with bad player evaluation. I agree, I don’t think its good to have a system…high school and college have their pros and cons, but I think you should look at the player more. Even though its new management, I don’t think the Bucs should steer clear from pitchers with their first picks. Thats where difference-makers like Beckett and Verlander are generally picked.
As far as Prior, I saw this link a few years ago about how his mechanics had changed from 2003, and had video clips to prove it. Interesting stuff. My brother is a Cubs fan and all I have to do is bring up Wood, Prior, or Dusty Baker and he’ll see red. Good ammunition.
by NastyNate82 on Oct 21, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
previous workload
Nate,
Here’s where my thought process would go concerning college arms- Just seems to make better sense to grab a bunch of talented high school/prep arms and get them into the system as soon as possible… And I think all organizations have “a system” whether they recognize it or not- some better than others.
I’m guessing college level coaches have trophy fever (which makes sense for their careers).
But if the PBC can build a considerable stable of talented younger guns, they can nurture them, protect them (pitch counts, etc.), and compile a complete developmental portfolio sheet over the course of 3 to 4+ years. It benefits both player and team.
It seems the last FO simply looked at the short term (CYA) The current FO strategy has me cautiously excited. This process should be fun to watch, but it surely will take quite some time.
p.s. And certainly, if a Roethlisberger falls into your lap: For God’s sake, TAKE HIM!
by belfry on Oct 21, 2009 11:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you have a pitcher with "far superior" talent, then take him in the first round
Otherwise, stay away from first round pitchers. Historically, position players hit at 50% in the first round, high school pitchers at 40%, and college pitchers at 25%. If you can get possible future first round high schoolers with later picks, then you can increase your odds like the Pirates did this year.
Tony Sanchez should only be considered a reach if judged against the other position players taken ahead of him. Once the Pirates decided there was no sure “impact talent” available at #4, the best thing to do is play the odds and take a position player.
The next position player taken was Grant Green at #13, who signed for $2.75M, and then Robert Borchering at #16, who signed for $1.8M. Since these are in the range that Tony Sanchez signed for, can we not assume that the Pirates just liked Sanchez better?
Put into this perspective, I don’t think Sanchez should be seen as a “reach”. They simply liked him better than 2 other mid first rounders, and let the other teams take their chances on the pitcher lottery.
by MarkInDallas on Oct 21, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Put into this perspective, I don’t think Sanchez should be seen as a "reach". They simply liked him better than 2 other mid first rounders, and let the other teams take their chances on the pitcher lottery.
The reason that he’s seen as a reach is that no one else liked him more than Green or Borchering.
by maguro on Oct 21, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that was my basis for criticizing the Sanchez pick at the time.
by Charlie on Oct 21, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't even...
…the top catcher on some people’s boards, much less the top position player.
by Vlad on Oct 21, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a question for y’all…what does Tony have to do at the pro level for his selection to be a success? Or do you think its irrelevant if he turns out to be decent, but just a regular, while the picks the Bucs passed over turn out to be all-stars?
by NastyNate82 on Oct 21, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s a tough question. I was always fine with the Sanchez pick considering the guys they picked later in the draft but a lot of people on this board felt differently (and for very valid reasons).
I think that there will always be guys drafted after a certain player who will become stars and make that player’s selection look worse by comparison. For example in a thread a while back we were looking at Neil Walker’s draft class and there were a handful of guys selected after Walker who already look much better (Jered Weaver, Stephen Drew, Blake DeWitt come immediately to mind) but Walker was still selected at an appropriate spot as several in that thread pointed out.
Unless Sanchez doesn’t become a big league regular (barring unforeseen injuries) I personally won’t consider his selection a failure but others might very feel differently.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 21, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you get a regular out of the first round, I don’t think thats not too bad. And I think Sanchez can certainly be a productive regular. There are so many top round picks who flame out and don’t even make the big leagues, especially if you look at the drafts more and more…you just don’t want a year where you misfire entirely, cause that can cripple your system.
by NastyNate82 on Oct 21, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about Walker is that everyone viewed Drew and Weaver as more talented players AT THE TIME, too. It was pretty similar to the Sanchez situation, except without all the awesome picks later in the draft to make up for it.
by Charlie on Oct 21, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not really a fair comp...
Walker was picked in an area most experts expected him to go. Nobody had Sanchez projected to go at #4 and some had him as a sandwich round pick. I understand where you’re coming from but the comp is way off IMO.
by Slick1 on Oct 21, 2009 11:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
That's not really a fair comp...
Walker was picked in an area most experts expected him to go. Nobody had Sanchez projected to go at #4 and some had him as a sandwich round pick. I understand where you’re coming from but the comp is way off IMO.
by Slick1 on Oct 21, 2009 11:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I think the minimum threshold of success for the pick...
…given the draft position and the opportunity cost of taking a low-upside player, is something along the lines of Ramon Hernandez’s career. 10+ years as a starter, solid in his down years, and a minor star in his good ones.
So basically, Sanchez needs to max out his talent for this to turn out well for us.
by Vlad on Oct 22, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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