Pirates to Move High-A Affiliate to Florida State League
I guess convenience won out for the Pirates in this case. One doesn't attach much to winning in the lower minors, but given that all hope for Bucs fans seems to stem from the players who were part of a championship in Lynchburg, I wouldn't have minded the High-A affiliate staying there.
UPDATE by Charlie: The Pirates' A+ affiliate will move from Lynchburg in the Carolina League to Bradenton in the Florida State League. This is a natural move for the Pirates for all kinds of reasons, obviously. There's been a trend toward regionalizing farm systems--trying to get all of one's affiliates as close to the big-league city as possible. But because of the way the Class A+ leagues are aligned (there's one based around the Carolinas, one in Florida and another in California), there wasn't a way for the Pirates to get a team closer to Pittsburgh. Lynchburg is pretty remote. So for the Bucs to have a second team in Bradenton, where they have Spring Training, makes sense.
It'd be natural to call them the "Bradenton Pirates." Their rookie-league team, also in Bradenton, is already called the Pirates, but the Reds had two teams in Florida last year called the Reds, so there's precedent.
So, just to clear up any confusion, it will be
Indianapolis Indians (AAA)
Altoona Curve (AA)
Bradenton ???? (A+)
West Virginia Power (A)
State College Spikes (A- short season)
Bradenton/GCL Pirates (rookie)
Two teams in Bradenton, and my guess is that both will be called the Pirates.
The Florida State League plays as a more favorable environment for pitchers than the Carolina League. Some folks have complained, here and elsewhere, about it being tough to get a good read on prospects as a result of a move from a neutral league. There is a legitimate complaint here, but the FSL isn't nearly as extreme an environment as, say, some of the hitter-friendly ballparks in the Mountain West and California that really do wreak havoc on prospects. The pitcher-friendliness of the FSL is something we'll have to keep an eye on, but I don't think it's that big a deal. Of course, it remains to be seen how Bradenton's park will play in the summer.
Unfortunately, cincinnati.com points out that the Sarasota Reds drew less than 1,000 per game last year, way less than the Hillcats, who drew over 2,000.
Thanks to WHYGAVS. And condolences to Tim at Bucco Fans, who did all kinds of good work in Lynchburg this year.
UPDATE 4:11 PM: Cincinnati.com is the only source reporting this. If it's happening, I don't know why no Pittsburgh sources have reported it.
UPDATE 12:30 AM: Lynchburg's paper has an item on this, describing it as "likely." As Cincinnati.com suggested, this isn't official yet, but I bet it will be soon.
23 days ago
BurgherKing
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The Carolina League is a much better affiliation. The FSL is an extreme pitcher’s league, which makes it hard to see how your prospects are really doing. The weather is bad and, from what I understand, very few fans attend games.
And, of course, Lynchburg games in the DC area account for over half of my opportunities to see Pirate prospects play.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly my reason for disliking this move. The first part anyway.
by northsidenotch on Oct 28, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it hard to see how your prospects are doing? You should be able to apply corrections to compensate for the run environment.
by maguro on Oct 28, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would think so...
…but in practice the FSL is extreme enough that it drowns all the nuance in players’ raw numbers. Like if you were trying to assess hitters’ power in a park with 500-foot fences all the way around – a 300-foot fly and a 400-foot fly both just look like outs.
Almost nobody hits for power in the FSL. A few examples:
Hank Blalock, 2001: 237 AB, 7 HR.
Justin Morneau, 2001: 197 AB, 4 HR.
Jason Bay, 2001-2002: 384 AB, 10 HR.
Mike Jacobs, 2002: 467 AB, 11 HR.
Grady Sizemore, 2002: 256 AB, 0 HR.
Kevin Youkilis, 2002: 268 AB, 3 HR.
Miguel Cabrera, 2003: 489 AB, 9 HR.
Robinson Cano, 2003: 366 AB, 5 HR.
Etc.
by Vlad on Oct 28, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but a lot of those guys (Youkilis, Jacobs, Sizemore, Blalock, Cabrera) just didn’t hit for a lot of HR power early in their careers, and their FSL lines really aren’t out of line with what they did immediately before. (And Blalock actually slugged .557 in the FSL.) In fact, MOST players don’t hit a bunch of homers early in their careers.
I agree that there is an issue here, but I’m just not sure it’s significant enough to worry much about. It’s not like the Pirates are moving their A+ team to High Desert.
by Charlie on Oct 28, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
amazingly, some MLB teams manage to succeed with teams in the FSL
After seeing that franchises like the brewers, rays, marlins, twins and phillies all have teams in the league – and all have done well at producing homegrown talent – I have decided to climb back thru the window and off the ledge. I invite you all to join me.
Hot stove league discussions often seem to take place out around the 4th decimal point. Perry Hill was no BFD (I agree) yet this is somehow momentous.
by mocasdad on Oct 29, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was trying to think of how much,
exactly, Perry Hill could teach a player about defense. And I couldn’t come up with much.
“Here’s where to stand when X comes to bat. If the count changes in his favor, move over here. If it’s a curve, move over here. … Here’s where to set your feet for the pivot if it comes from third .. from short … Throw like this.”
I mean, just how much is there to say?
by bucdaddy on Oct 29, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My father is an infield/first base coach at the highschool level. It doesn’t seem like there could be much but there is. I would say the biggest part is breaking bad habits taught at earlier levels. There are also mechanical issues and positioning that help the players with things such as the first step and transitioning from fielding to throwing.
by PensFan024 on Oct 29, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Momentous?
Doubtful,however to many of the people here (myself included) it is a big deal.
The largest of these is that several of us were able to scout and take a look at the Hillcats a few times over the course of the season.
I saw them at Frederick,WTM at Potomac and so on.
Anytime that you can see a player rather than go by his numbers is advantagous to us as fans.
Moving the team to Bradenton hinders this effort.
Plus if you happen to be a person that relies strictly on stats,the FSL has been established as a pitching biased league,while the CL is clearly the most moderate and non-biased of the three High A leagues as been noted by others here.
Plus the players hate the FSL,I’ll leave it at that on this one.
So,will it send development efforts to a screeching halt?
No,but the Pirates did make things a bit more difficult on themselves and made things far more difficult for the majority of their hard-core fans.
Check out my blog at thoughtsofrs@blogspot.com
by Count Vertigo on Oct 29, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hot stove league discussions often seem to take place out around the 4th decimal point.
Memorably and aptly put. Especially in October, when we’re all really scrounging for news.
by Charlie on Oct 29, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even the ones who didn't have much HR power...
…still had significantly less power overall in the FSL. Look at Youkilis, for example. ISOs by year/level (for AB>100):
2001 NYP (A-): .147
2002 FSL (A): .093
2002 EL (AA): .156
2003 EL (AA): .138
Or Jacobs:
1999 GCL®: .164
2000 APP®: .215
2001 SAL (A): .105
2002 FSL (A+): .130
2002 EL (AA): .219
It’s pretty much the same across the board, and it’s particularly stark for guys who got traded mid-season. Sizemore, for example, had a 40-point bounce in his ISO when he went from Montreal’s FSL affiliate to Cleveland’s Carolina League one, even though they’re both A+.
by Vlad on Oct 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even so...
was the development of any of these players harmed by playing in the FSL? Their organizations obviously understood that they were playing in a pitcher’s league and promoted them despite their low power numbers.
by maguro on Oct 29, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my view, the problem is less development than perception. Youkilis and Sizemore, for example, weren’t all that highly regarded at the time, mainly due to perceived lack of power. As best as I can recall, Sizemore was regarded as mainly a throw-in in the Bartolo Colon trade, and BA (which gets most of its info from scouts) was dumping on Youkilis all the time, despite the astronomical OBP. I’m not saying the Pirates will, for example, trade Starling Marte for a bag of balls because he doesn’t hit many HRs in 2010, but I do think the risks of mis-evaluating your hitters (and overestimating your pitchers’ ability) are increased at least a little.
by WTM on Oct 29, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen...
I would do the same thing…Potomac and Frederick…oh well, there is always Bowie for AA games I guess…Potomac was 15 miles from Stately Kraut Manor and highly convienient. Their thoughtlessness of my wants and needs just tears it!
by Mick Kraut on Oct 28, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well,
Guess I’ll see you more here for West Virginia’s three visits this year!
This makes no sense at all,I dont care how the Pirates spin it.
Check out my blog at thoughtsofrs@blogspot.com
by Count Vertigo on Oct 28, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt.
I think this was probably part of a deal with the city of Bradenton when the city funded renovations at Pirate City and McKechnie. It was the city that wanted lights at McKechnie, probably so they could get an FSL team.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any difference between the two leagues a la the PCL?
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 28, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As I noted above, the FSL is the most extreme pitcher’s league in the minors outside of short season ball. The Carolina League is one of the more balanced.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The FSL is more of a pitcher’s league. But this wouldn’t be like, say, going from Indianapolis in the IL to Salt Lake City in the PCL. The difference isn’t nearly as extreme, and (as far as I know) Sarasota (if the games are played there) doesn’t play as an extreme park within the context of the FSL.
by Charlie on Oct 28, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks guys, that’s exactly what I wanted to know. I can hardly wait until the arguments about how real a FSL prospect’s stats are.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 28, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradenton is a huge park...
But, does the wind die down as the summer progresses? I’d assume so as the HR leader in the league last year only had 18.
by aso513 on Oct 28, 2009 4:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Calvin Anderson does not approve this move.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This totally blows !
I live outside of Myrtle Beach, SC. My wife and I would see at least two Hillcat games when they came to town. I friggin’ hate the Pelicans !
"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell
by Ketcham Bruce on Oct 28, 2009 6:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cincinnati.com is the only source reporting this.
Meanwhile, the PG is all over this. Not. Bud doesn’t want any news during the playoffs. I’d rather there wasn’t any while Dejan is on vacation.
by WTM on Oct 28, 2009 7:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Team Name
At least it’s not a Kissimmee Astros situation
Sign Corky Miller
by TheJay on Oct 28, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Start a campaign for the Bradenton Bunch
That is a fabulous suggestion that must be brought to fruition. I love it.
Good day.
by Uncle Nate on Oct 29, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You forgot at the top of the list:
Pittsburgh Pirates (AAAA)
by patthatt on Oct 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
pg
does have a story on this that quotes a statement from Coonelly that suggests it is a done deal, pending league approval. Like WTM, I mourn the disappearance of 2/3 of my opportunities to see Pirate farm teams. I think my Lynchburg swan song was seeing Moskos give up 9 runs in 3 plus innings a year ago.
by basmati on Oct 29, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope the people of Charleston
continue to support the West Virginia Power to keep the club there for many years to come.
by patthatt on Oct 30, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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