Pirate History Proves Skilled Veteran Players Essential For Championship Teams

by The Last Hollywood Star on Oct 3, 2009 9:50 AM EDT Comment 12 comments

When former Pittsburgh Pirates Freddy Sanchez, Jack Wilson, Adam LaRoche, John Grabow, Tom Gorzelanny and Nate McClouth were traded, they had to feel an enormous sense of relief. The endless speculation about whether they would remain Pirates ended in July.

Pirate management explained the trades in straightforward and logical terms. The thirty-ish ex-Pirates were all playing at their career peaks and would never have higher value on the trade market. The philosophy: strike now while the iron is hot!

On its face, adding youth to create winning teams seems indisputable. But historically, veteran players are crucial too.

I studied the lineups of four major league World Series success stories, three from our Buccos and one from the New York Yankees.

Here’s what I found.

The 1960 World Series champion Pittsburgh Pirates used the following players in their seventh game victory over the Yankees. Their ages are in parentheses.

Bill Virdon, CF, (29);Dick Groat, SS, (30); Bob Skinner, LF, (30); Rocky Nelson, 1B, (36); Roberto Clemente, RF, (26), Smokey Burgess, C, (33), Joe Christopher, PR (25); Hal Smith, C, (29); Don Hoak, 3B, (32), Bill Mazeroski, 2B (24); Vern Law, SP, (30); Elroy Face, RP, (32); Gino Cimoli, PH, (31); Bob Friend, RP, (30), Harvey Haddix, RP, (35). Average age: 30

In 1971, the champion Pirates were slightly younger.

Here’s the seventh game World Series line up: Dave Cash, 2B, (23); Gene Clines, CF, (25); Roberto Clemente, RF, (37); Bob Robertson, 1B, (25); Manny Sanguillen, C, (27), Willie Stargell, LF, (31); Jose Pagan, 3B, (36), Jackie Hernandez, SS, (31); Steve Blass, P, (30) Average age: 29.5

The 1979 Pirates, also World Series winners, were the oldest---or should I say most experienced?

Omar Moreno, CF, (27); Tim Foli, SS, (29); Dave Parker, RF, (28); Bill Robinson, LF, (36); Willie Stargell, 1B, (39); Bill Madlock, 3B, (28); Steve Nicosia, C, (24); Phil Garner, 2B, (32), Jim Bibby, P, (35); Don Robinson, (32); Manny Sanguillen, (35); Grant Jackson, RP, (37); Kent Tekulve, P, (32) Average: 31.6

Even more compelling is an analysis of the New York Yankees’ World Championship teams that had a never-to-be-matched five consecutive titles from 1949 to 1953.

Twelve players from those Yankees were on all five World Series rosters. Their ages in 1953, the last year of the Yankee string, follow their names.

Hank Bauer, RF, (31); Yogi Berra, C, (30); Bobby Brown, 3B, (30); Jerry Coleman, 2B, (30); Joe Collins, (31); Eddie Lopat, P, (35); Johnny Mize, 1B, (40); Vic Raschi, P, (34); Allie Reynolds, P, (38); Phil Rizzuto, SS, (36); Charlie Silvera, C, (30); Gene Woodling, RF, (31) Average: 33

An important footnote to the Yankees is that the most touted, can’t miss bonus-baby player the team signed during their championship reign was 18-year-old bonus baby first baseman Frank Leja who was supposed to make fans forget about Lou Gehrig. Leja was the Miguel Sano of his day. Yet in parts of three seasons, Leja came to bat only sixteen times and got one hit.

The Leja experiment abruptly ended the Yankees’ youth movement!

As the examples listed above prove, the key to winning baseball is not the players’ ages but their talent. When teams trade away their best players without equally skilled replacements ready to call up, as the Pirates continue to do, they’re left to hope for the best.

As of today, hope is the only thing on the Pirates’ horizon.

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Comments

We lost 90+ games with Sanchez, McLouth, Wilson, et al and we lost 90+ without them. Remind me again how great these guys were?

by matskralc on Oct 3, 2009 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As of today, hope is the only thing on the Pirates’ horizon.
At least we have hope of a championship caliber team in the next 3 years now, whereas before all we had was the hope that Littlefield’s management was all a terrible bad dream.

by Akshay R on Oct 3, 2009 11:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That first sentence was supposed to be a quote of the last sentence of the fanpost. No clue why it didn’t show up that way…

by Akshay R on Oct 3, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not quite sure pre-1980 baseball history is really relevant anymore.

Also no one thinks the Pirates will contend now. By the time they are able to contend, there will be veteran players (see A. McCutchen, L. Milledge, etc.)

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 3, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention the terribly amusing and quaint use of pre-free agency baseball which is about as relevant as citing cricket.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 3, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair Frank Tyson’s bowling in the 1954 Ashes series is kind of analogous to the 1957 Milwaukee Braves which in turn tells us that the Freddy Sanchez trade was a bad move.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 3, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+7 for the reference to the legendary Frank Tyson.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 3, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even a pre-free agent GM like Joe L. Brown realized the importance of youth:

“Baseball players start young. If they haven’t made it by the time they’re 22, they probably won’t. Take our club. Milt May was in the major leagues at 20. Bob Robertson at 21. Bob Moose at 19. Rennie Stennett at 20. Cash at 21. Hebner, 21; Willie 22; Oliver 21. Most athletes are at their best between 27 and 31. They have always had the physical skills, and they get older, they can control them.”

Quote is from “Out of Left Field” by Bob Adelman.

by bolton on Oct 3, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So we just need to get a bunch of old guys?

by maguro on Oct 3, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You do realize that the economic conditions of baseball have changed significantly since 1960. If the conditions we have now were present back then then the Pirates would not have been able to afford to keep most of those veterans that you just listed.

by ravidesai1984 on Oct 3, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Thats also a selective list, specifically concerning the Yankees. There is no mention of their two best players (Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford) who were under 25 at the time. Those two guys were fairly significant.

by NastyNate82 on Oct 3, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There's no evidence that you need old players

But it’s very difficult for any team to amass all the talent needed if they are all in their 20’s. As Joe L. Brown said above, baseball players are best between the ages of 27-31. That means for the best players who come up in their early 20’s, like McCutchen, their best years are usually during their free agency years, whereas other players, like Andy LaRoche, might have their best years towards the end of their 6 years of club control and into the first couple of years of free agency.

This is why it’s very difficult and expensive to buy a team exclusively through free agency – because some of the players will already have most of their best years behind them – AND ALSO difficult to construct a championship team strictly focusing on players in their pre-free agency years.

The conclusion is that you need to have the core members of a good team in their early years and then augment that team with free agents whose contributions can put the team over the top.

If, on the other hand, you see your good pending free agents don’t have nearly enough around them to win by augmenting the roster with a couple of good pieces, then you must do what the Pirates have done and trade them for another cycle of club controled players.

by MarkInDallas on Oct 6, 2009 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs