Pirates' Season Ends With 6-0 Loss
by Charlie on Oct 4, 2009 4:26 PM EDT
51 comments
In the Pirates' final game of the year, the Bucs managed to put a staggering fifteen men on base--ten hits, including a triple, plus four walks and a hit batsman--without plating a single one of them. This wasn't a good game by any stretch, but it could have been considerably better. In the fifth inning, Steve Pearce led off with a triple and Andrew McCutchen followed that up with a walk--and then Andy LaRoche came to the plate and swung at about a million pitches outside the strike zone, fouling off most of them before finally striking out swinging. Garrett Jones and Lastings Milledge followed that up with strikeouts of their own.
The Bucs' pitching today was one of those bullpen special days, with Jeff Karstens getting the spot start and pitching only two and a third. Today's bullpen only day didn't work out nearly as well as it did the last time, as Karstens allowed two runs and Donald Veal made a complete mess in the bottom of the fifth.
Brandon Moss got a start and went 1-for-2 with two walks. Good for him, but fortunately for all of us, it sounds like this was a last hurrah of sorts, since he won't be starting much next year. Moss finishes the season with 133 games played and a .236/.303/.364 line. That would be barely acceptable for a Gold Glove shortstop, but for a corner outfielder, well... at least Moss rates as a good defensive player, which means he's a worthwhile bench guy. Beyond that, I think we've seen what we need to see.
One nice thing--well, pretty much the only nice thing--about knowing you're a terrible ballclub is the ability to use playing time as a way of acquiring information. It wasn't automatic that Moss would fail this year. PECOTA (subscription required) said before the season that there would be about a 25% chance of him being as bad or worse than he actually was, and compared him to good players like Curtis Granderson, Paul O'Neill, Jason Kubel, Graig Nettles and Carlos Pena, along with some other guys who weren't nearly as good. The Pirates sensibly used the first couple months of the season to see if they had a Granderson or O'Neill on their hands. It turns out they almost certainly don't, but hey--it's not like the Bucs would have won 90 games with a different right fielder.
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Second overall pick in the draft
Time to start looking ahead now, I figure (can’t hurt).
I guess the early front runner is Ranaudo?
by Suffering Buc on Oct 4, 2009 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hopin Pomeranz has a big year at Ole Miss
by BadAndy on Oct 4, 2009 5:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, but it does no harm to look ahead.
by Suffering Buc on Oct 4, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Eh, yes and no.
It’s easy to get locked into a few choices at this stage in the game, and then end up ignoring late risers, or at least not giving them appropriate consideration.
by Vlad on Oct 4, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure hope Neal is able to sign a stopgap at RF
until Tabata is ready. Maybe a 2 yr stopgap who knows.
by BadAndy on Oct 4, 2009 5:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I thought GFJ
is the starter at 1st?
by BadAndy on Oct 4, 2009 6:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I previously thought a FA outfielder was a good idea, but at this point I’d rather see some in-house options like Jones, Clement, and yes even Neil Walker for the pre-Pedro period if Andy moves to 2nd. If he can get a great deal on the free agent market then they still should do it though.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 4, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m hoping Clement makes the team next spring.
I don’t want Pearce or Moss in the everyday lineup.
by Suffering Buc on Oct 4, 2009 5:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
At this point...
…I think Pearce is going to need some luck just to hang onto his roster spot.
Moss is probably safe on the bench, thanks to his glove.
by Vlad on Oct 4, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bar some FA signings
I’d expect to see Pearce on the ML roster. I would expect Clement/Pearce being platooned, and GFJ in RF, unless Clement makes an extremely strong case in Spring Training
by BurgherKing on Oct 5, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Moss as a bench player who starts 50 games per year. He belongs on a Major League roster, as long as he’s used in the right capacity.
Pearce has no place on a big league 40-man.
by Suffering Buc on Oct 4, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This was my third season posting on Bucs Dugout.
I enjoyed hanging out with you guys and exchanging info and thoughts about our Pittsburgh Pirates.
I’m looking forward to more of the same in 2010.
by patthatt on Oct 4, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You say that like you won’t be here every day until February.
by JRoth95 on Oct 5, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad the season is over
Even though there was little to cheer about, watching the young guys was always fun. Look forward to next season with more of the “future” coming into the bigs.
by dulciusEXasperis on Oct 4, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Moss and Pearce
I have no problem with Moss being a 4th or 5th OF on this team. He has played pretty good defense, does have the ability to hit a home run now and then and even seems to do well as a PH.
I would not write Pearce off just yet. His line vs LHP is pretty solid. Note that Jones line vs LHP was not very good. I could certainly see a pretty potent platoon at 1B with those too.
I also would not yet be ready to hand any spot on the roster to Clement. He has bad knees and apparently still needs a lot of work to be a major league 1B. He also did not hit well overall at AAA this year.
I do like that there is at least talk of LaRoche moving to 2B to make room for Pedro at 3B. I just hope Pedro can play a good 3B at the major league level. Even more reasons why the Pittsburgh brass needs to do all they can to convince Perry Hill to stay…at least 1 more season. That may be the biggest signing we have all offseason.
by Brakeman8 on Oct 4, 2009 9:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
…and before the spelling police nail me, yes it should be “those two.” Oops.
by Brakeman8 on Oct 4, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
The Bucs were actually good defensively compared to the rest of the league, and Perry Hill probably had a lot to do with that. It’s kinda scary to think what the team’s record would have been otherwise ! I hope Buc’s brass recognizes this and pays Perry enough to keep him.
by michaelbro8 on Oct 5, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I promised myself
I wouldn’t cry (sniffle)
I’m no good at farewells…
Nevermind though I will be lurking during the offseason.
by BlindSquirrel on Oct 4, 2009 10:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
doumit at first?
Just a thought. i think that he could make it through a whole season at first. and have jones play right field. with j.j. behind the plate. It would take a lot of work on doumit’s part. but i think that it might be the best option offensively.
hey from what i read about clement’s defense doumit could probably play first as well as clement does
by buccosfan on Oct 5, 2009 3:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
off season moves, in a capsule
1, get doumit out of here, and pick up some type of middle infielder and or power hitter for him.
He has value , don’t care what his season stats ended
If he is healthy, try to get Freddie Sanchez back.
Fire Russell, this has to be the 1st move, which in turn could be the most important move.
Either hire a proven major league manager, or try a younger guy with high upside.
My first choice would be Ozzie Guillen(he is going to get the boot from the white sox, trust me).
Or A guy like Andy Van Slyke, he would be a good guy to root for, not like Russell, who will always be hated by true Pirate fans, as long as he is in charge.
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 3:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, firing Russell is key.
Because with a different manager, there’s no possible way this team would’ve lost 90+ games.
Keerist.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Pirates would have finished much different with a different manager.
What I DO wonder…is what exactly is Russell providing that will help this team improve…other than not ranting and raving at the players??
Is he providing specialized instruction and guidance to help the players improve (or is it actually his coaching staff)?? Is he showing leadership (or again…letting the coaches do it)?? Or is he waiting for one or some of the players to show leadership. John Mehno reported that there are at least a few players that have gone as long as 17 days without directly talking to the manager (which is a scary thought for someone (a manager) that is around these guys at least 8 hours a day for 6 months). Dejan opined that the “drill sergeant” that Mehno mentioned was likely Varsho.
We know his game management skills have been highly questioned…as has his handling of the pitching staff (unless he’s gonna blame it all on Kerrigan). One instance that concerned me was the report that came out this week from several sources that Paul Maholm pitched a significant portion of the season with a knee problem. Nothing like an injury to potentially change a pitcher’s motion and create an arm or shoulder injury. Guess we lucked out there. Pirates try to bring Ascanio back (for all of 2 weeks)…and find out he has a torn labrum. I still have my doubts about the ability of Pirates doctors to assess injuries promptly and correctly. See also, Sanchez, Freddy (not that the Giants did any better in assessing him).
I realize that most of this stuff is not going to be readily apparent to Joe Fan. But from reports…he deals with the media quietly…the umpires quietly…and the players quietly. There ARE times when not being quiet is more effective.
A good baseball manager must be an instructor…a manager…a director…a guidance counselor…a leader and one or two other hats. How many is JR qualified to wear? We hear reports of the “Pirates System” helping players to improve (like Milledge)…but haven’t heard any players talk of what the manager has done to help them improve.
by Thunder on Oct 5, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His game-management skills have been questioned...
…but those questions are not always legitimate. The Pirates under Russell are a much better percentage team than they had been under prior managers: They steal bases at a higher rate of success, for example, despite running more often, and they rarely employ one-run strategies like a sac bunt from a non-pitcher. Similarly, the relatively good health of the Pirates’ pitching staff is probably in part a function of Russell keeping a close eye on starter workloads within games and reliever workloads throughout the year, something that wasn’t the case at other times during the streak.
I don’t know too much about his instructional habits as a manager, but during his first tenure with the team, he was very active in teaching catcher defense, and he presided over a remarkable transformation in Kendall’s defensive abilities. One would assume, in the absence of contrary information, that he’s still doing the same sorts of things now (unless, of course, one were inclined to confuse the absence of evidence with evidence of absence).
Sooner or later, all the criticism of Russell seems to boil down to him not being interesting to watch. He’s not fiery! He’s not dynamic! He’s a boring interview! He’s not throwing tantrums on the field, or screaming at people in the dugout! As far as I’m concerned, a lot of that stuff is just egotistical grandstanding that doesn’t serve any real purpose. Sure, it was funny when McClendon stole that base, but did it actually win us any more games? Sure, Tracy was always throwing himself in front of the cameras and pantomiming leadership, but was anybody actually following him? The Pirates’ late charge down the stretch to avoid 100 losses, playing for nothing but pride, would seem to argue that he’s at least an adequate motivator even if he’ll never play one on TV. But what do I know?
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the end of your argument
You really get to what bothers you: he doesn’t show “fire.” Much like “grit” for a player, fire is a term for a manager that is just a fan’s word that doesn’t really have a quantifiable meaning that is worth arguing about. You can look at fiery managers whose teams choked down the stretch or didn’t respond when “fired up” etc. It’s not worth getting into the whole “psychology” of the situation of being fiery because it’s not something that can be talked about with any sort of matter-of-fact tone. And, either way, we don’t know what happens in that dugout or in the clubhouse when there are no cameras on.
And I understand people wanting to talk about how he handles the bullpen or why he writes certain lineups, but frankly you’re going to have those types of beefs with any manager. The manager isn’t always going to do what you think he should, which doesn’t make either of you right or wrong. Is he overly careful with the pen at times? Probably, but I’d rather it be that way then the other.
I also think attempting to blame him for injuries to players is questionable, because it’s on Maholm and the medical staff to assess that situation. You do mention the medical staff, but there’s no need to even point this out unless you’re pointing to Russell as the culprit in the situation. I think he’s handled starting pitchers very well — outside of leaving Snell in for 200000 pitches the one start — and is clearly looking at pitch counts and inning totals to avoid issues like the Reds are having. You need to be protective of a young staff…As for Freddy, that knee must be tricky because neither staff could properly assess the situation, or maybe they did and the knee simply got worse after a certain play or after playing again everyday.
I don’t have a problem with you talking about potential issues with caring for young pitchers at a minor-league level, though, because obviously it was a bit of a problem under Littlefield — but remember a lot of that had to do with the deceit, which is something that this regime has mostly avoided. Plus, young pitchers simply get hurt, it’s just a fact of baseball. Some injuries can be tied to wear and tear, others to faulty mechanics, or various other factors, but young pitchers are just going to get hurt no matter how good the medical staff or instructional staff is.
Finally, Russell clearly does have a background in instruction and so forth, but I don’t know what to take away from other players not stepping up to mention Russell. I don’t really think it means anything, so I’m not going to jump to the conclusion that he must be bad at instruction etc. like you did. I have seen no real evidence of that.
by Slizeezyc on Oct 5, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, firing this stiff is the key.!!
no because with a different manager, this team will start to show some fire and heart on the field.
If it was just based on wins and losses, Russell should never , ever be retained.
But, if you watch the games, you can see this guy has no clue how to manage game situations, his roster, or his pitching staff.
Is that enough of a reason for you?
Just cause he is paid for through 2010, is not a reason to keep him on the job.
They dumped Morriss a few years back, cause he didn’t give the team a chance to win, same with Russell.
And i am sure you agree Morriss cost the team alot more than Russell’s 2010 salary does.
Russell’s a stiff, he is not even a good liar.
He needs to go, ASAP.
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please give us concrete examples...
…of times when he showed that he “has no clue how to manage game situations, his roster, or his pitching staff”.
Dates, times, game situations. I.e. “In Game X, Russell made Move Y, which was dumb because bla bla bla… He should have made Move Z instead, because bla bla bla…” Without them, there’s no way to examine your claim.
Personally, I would have no trouble dredging up similar examples for Tracy or McClendon, which is how I know that they were bad managers.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
While tom p is rather extreme in his assertions
I do tend to agree that JR hasn’t always made good moves, or even steady moves. I can’t think of examples right now, but I can think of general scenarios, where he brings in Bautista/Jackson with a slim lead with Hanrahan/Chavez available, leaves Capps in too long, etc…
At the same time, he hasnt been given a team he could possibly win with, so maybe he was occasionally under instruction to throw in relievers/players into the fire just to figure out if they had the temperament to handle it. Once they were out of contention, I can imagine a number of moves might have been made just to see what someone could deliver…
by BurgherKing on Oct 5, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of that goes back to managing bullpen workload.
When you only have two or three good relievers, there’s going to be a temptation to use those guys 80 times a year, because they’re the only ones who can get anybody out. Unfortunately, that’s how Torres (and potentially Capps) blew up from overwork.
On the whole, I think Russell did a good job this year of not working future assets to the point that they damaged themselves. If Jesse Chavez is still healthy and productive as a setup guy for us in 2012, we’ll be glad for a few of those Bootcheck and Bautista outings this year, even if they meant a few extra losses.
If there’s blame to be assigned for the pen, I think it rests more with Huntington, for not bringing in better relief NRIs over the offseason, and for never trying out some of our better internal options even as existing relievers were failing.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm you mean like pitching to Pujols in a tie / extra inning game with 2 outs and no one one?.
Earlier in the year when he let Gorzo pitch to the Righty Hitting Zimmerman, when he was apparently running out of gas(walked previous 2 men, if i can recall).
His insistence on playing for small ball, early in the game , by giving up outs to advance runners.?
His thinking when it came to the Duke fiasco(this should be labeled under “game situations”.
By benching the hot hand, for no reason except to “play the percentages”, this would fall under Monroes 2 hr 6 rbi day, when he sat for the next 2 days(this would be under the “managing the roster categorie”.
By DEMANDING your pitcher to not swing at anything, while you have the bases loaded, a pitcher not throwing strikes, and your lead off hitter(who was pounding the ball at the time) , in the on deck circle.
May i throw in that 2 of those base runners reached on bb, i believe.
If it’s true that Russell goes for weeks(17 days, i think the number was quoted as), without talking to some of his players, is mind boggling.
It’s like, well you are on the club, but i will talk it you when I have time.
Only a pair of a jackass’s by the names of Vlad @ slizac, could not see this .
Do you guys watch the games?, if so, pay attention if unless you enjoy making a mockery of yourselfs
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Almost forgot to mention,
Almost forgot, the time Capps vs Phillies, remember that dreadful night of managing Russell produced back in July?.
I seem to recall the closer getting lit up from here to shangai, but when it came time for the big lefty power hitter to bat, where was the counter move of the lefty reliever.
Since it was apparent to everyone watching at home, Capps did not have it that night, and the only way to salvage this win was maybe to bring in the LEFTY to pitch to the strike out prone Lefty hitter.
But i guess the Russell forgot to read that chapter of THE BOOK, huh?
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not a Russell fan...
but I think you are a dbag! Resorting to namecalling when people don’t agree with your opinion is the epitomy of “douchebagginess!” And the enire post I am replying to makes a mockery of you.
by Slick1 on Oct 5, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure you are no stranger,to being called a douchebag.
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please re-read my post.
Rather than speaking in vague generalities, (i.e. that time that thing happened, you know the one!), I’d like a reference to a specific situation in a specific day.
If you cannot provide this, then there is no reason for anyone to believe what you are saying.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really??
Doesn’t those examples refer to specific situations?
Do you need the time of day, and game no. to help you out?.
please, read what i said 1 more x, then you can babble some more.
by tom p on Oct 5, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, they don't.
Referring to a specific situation would be “Game #17”, or “the June 4 game against the Cardinals”.
It’s unreasonable of you to expect me to go digging through dozens of box scores in the hope of finding something that you might-or-might-not be remembering correctly.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you too busy sucking your pappys ball sack? , to lookup the info?
by tom p on Oct 7, 2009 4:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thinking.
Get yourself banned.
Best idea you’ve expressed yet (in your own inimitable mis-punctuated way).
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 7, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you're making the claim...
…then the burden of proof is on you.
I’m not going to spend my time chasing your wild geese. Round them up yourself.
by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
moves
fire russell,he stinks.trade doumit for some power
by the superduperstar!!!!!! on Oct 5, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Donnie Veal's Purpose
After watching 19 rather painful appearances & witness the incredible bloating 2.33 WHIP, I really wasn’t sure what Veal’s purpose on this club was until I saw Sunday’s game.
And if you ask me, I think it was his final destiny to give up those 4 runs in the 5th yesterday & ultimately secure the #2 overall pick for us next year. Although it was another poor presentation, that was by far your most meaninful performance to date, so thank you for the #2 pick Donnie & a job well done! I wish you all the best in Fall Ball, and really hope you find that control you’ve been looking for.
As far as JR goes, I haven’t lost faith in him just yet. Apparently Coonelly hasn’t either, since he’s been quoted as being open to an extension. I find that a little disturbing though, because I’d much rather see someone like an Andy Van Slyke or Wally Backman running the club. We all know that’s not going to happen in 2010, but anything can happen in 2011 I suppose.
Bucco hope springs eternal.
by HoakyPoak on Oct 5, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Manager
Jim Tracy+Pirates roster=complete misery; Jim Tracy+Rockies roster=Playoffs. Kind of like Micawber’s Law for baseball. Given the Pirates’ offensive struggles this season, I say bring back Harry the Hat Walker.
Can’t see Ozzie Guillen in Pgh. Like the idea of Andy Van Slyke (bet Pat Lackey would like it too!) but would it be a good idea to match a guy learning to manage with a team learning to play? Just asking. Didn’t we try that w/McLendon? Maybe in a year or two.
Lino Donoso
by Lino Donoso on Oct 5, 2009 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Van Slyke kind of scares me, to be honest.
He seems like the type who would manage from the gut, rather than from the head.
I bet he’s fiery, though.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we were going to bring in someone with a past connection to the team...
…we could do a lot worse than Pete Mackanin. He’s been an interim manager twice, and put up a pretty good record both times. We were 55-81 under Lloyd in 2005 (.404), and the team went 12-14 under Mackanin after Lloyd was fired (.462). The Pirates dropped him for Jim Tracy, who went 67-95 the next year (.414). Similarly, the Reds were 31-51 under Jerry Narron in 2007 (.378) until he got fired, and that team went 41-39 under Mackanin the rest of the way (.513). The Reds dropped him for Dusty Baker, and Baker went 74-88 the next season (.457).
He may not be fiery enough for us, however.
by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates a disgrace
what the horrible pirates owner did this year is unspeakable. HE should be be booted out of baseball, if not the team should be folded. Compared to the teams of the late fifties, sixties and seventies this team is a g******** pieceof****
by PICKLEDICK on Oct 5, 2009 8:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yankees a disgrace
compared to the teams of the late twenties, thirties, forties, fifties and sixties this team is a f******n sh***storm.
by johnnycuff on Oct 6, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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