Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Guest Blogger: Juco All-American Answers Five Questions

Pirates Top 30 Prospects: October 2009 Edition

Rudy_owens_medium

Rudy Owens (photo: Dustin Baldwin)

Since the last Top 30 Prospects Feature was a fairly popular one, I thought it might be a good idea to make it a regular feature, appearing every couple months. So here's a new edition now that the season is over; I'll probably do another one when there's some winter ball data to work with, and then a few during the 2010 season. Let me know if you think this is a good idea.

All the caveats I described last time still apply, so if you have any questions about how I made the rankings, the first few paragraphs in the last post may be able to answer your questions.

Any player with less than 130 big-league at bats or less than 50 big-league innings pitched is eligible for inclusion, unless I arbitrarily determined he spent too much time in the big leagues despite not reaching those thresholds. (I'm leaving off Steven Jackson and Donald Veal for that reason.)

Ranking about #7 down to about #21 was the most difficult part of this list. Several guys near the end of that range actually played pretty well since the last ranking but moved down anyway, because they had other players leapfrogging them.

1. Pedro Alvarez, 3B, Altoona. Grade: A-. Previous ranking: 1. If there's anything to worry about here, it's that Alvarez won't hit for a high average in the majors; he batted only .259 in 54 at bats for the USA's World Cup team. He did, however, slug .574, and he's only just now finishing his first pro season.

2. Tony Sanchez, C, Lynchburg. Grade: B+. Previous ranking: 2. Again, I'm ranking him aggressively, and given the way he performed after being drafted I'm willing to give the front office the benefit of the doubt for now, and be open to the possibility that Sanchez is better than some prospect watchers thought he was. 

3. Jose Tabata, OF, Indianapolis. Grade: B+. Previous ranking: 3. Tabata finished the season slowly, posting a .693 OPS in September. He also struggled against righties for Indy, posting a .608 OPS against them. Tabata has been a very good prospect for years and he keeps rising through the system, basically deserving the promotions he gets. But he has never really answered questions about whether he can hit for power. He'll get another shot in the Arizona Fall League.

4. Rudy Owens, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: B. Previous ranking: 7. I remain skeptical of Owens, who doesn't have shut-down stuff and allows too many fly balls. But after being promoted to Lynchburg shortly before the last list came out, he kept doing what he does, striking out his fair share of batters and hardly walking any. Carolina League batters did have a slightly easier time taking him deep than South Atlantic League hitters did, but Owens is a good pitching prospect until he proves otherwise.

5. Brad Lincoln, SP, Indianapolis. Grade: B. Previous ranking: 5. A perfectly nice pitching prospect, but he hardly dominated in 2009 in the minors, and he'll be 25 in May. Lincoln pitched well for Team USA, but didn't have a dominating strikeout rate in a small sample.

Star-divide

6. Starling Marte, OF, Lynchburg. Grade: B. Previous ranking: 8. We don't have much data to work with, but so far there's nothing not to like, except maybe the fact that Marte struck out four times as often as he walked--and even that isn't necessarily a big deal for a player who was promoted very aggressively in his first season in the U.S. Marte hits for average, he has some power, he runs like the wind, and the Pirates obviously love him. Sign me up.

7. Robbie Grossman, OF, West Virginia. Grade: B-. Previous ranking: 6. Grossman slugged just .308 after the All-Star break, and it's pretty likely that he was just tired. The terrific OBP suggests he's going to be a good player; the 164 strikeouts says beware. 

8. Tim Alderson, SP, Altoona. Grade: B-. Previous ranking: 4. Yes, Alderson is a good pitching prospect who was a couple rungs higher in the system than most pitchers his age. But what he did after joining the Pirates organization should concern us a bit, as his strikeout rate went from iffy to downright bad. 

9. Zach Von Rosenberg, SP, Bradenton. Grade: B-. Previous ranking: 9. Von Rosenberg pitched one scoreless inning in the GCL; as the best arm in a 2009 Pirates draft that was filled with interesting pitchers, he'll hopefully make it to West Virginia next year. 

10. Chase D'Arnaud, SS, Lynchburg. Grade: B-. Previous ranking: 16. D'Arnaud hit well, with a good OBP, at West Virginia, then did basically the same thing but with more power at Lynchburg. He was perhaps a hint too old for the level, but it was his first pro season. He's a good, well-rounded player who hits for average, draws walks and plays good defense, and with the Bucs currently shaky in the middle infield, he'll have a clear path to the majors if he keeps hitting. He'll join Tabata in the Arizona Fall League.

11. Quinton Miller, SP, West Virginia. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 17. Miller gets a bump after improving throughout his short season and posting a very respectable overall line as a 19-year-old at West Virginia. I probably underrated him a bit last time.

12. Jeff Locke, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 11. The only reason Locke is ranked lower than before is that I felt I needed to move D'Arnaud and Miller up. Actually, the end to Locke's regular season was terrific--beginning with his July 29 start against Wilmington, he struck out 35 batters and walked just six, with an ERA of 2.58. It's way too early for despair about the Nate McLouth trade. Locke and Charlie Morton could make that deal a very, very good one for the Bucs, even if Gorkys Hernandez doesn't come along.

13. Daniel McCutchen, SP, Pittsburgh. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 12. How you grade McCutchen depends upon how you weigh potential versus certainty, I suppose. As McCutchen showed, he's ready to be a functional back-of-the-rotation guy right now. The problem is that he's probably going to allow a ton of homers as a major-league starting pitcher.

14. Brett Lorin, SP, West Virginia. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 13. No one ever talks about him, but Lorin struck out a batter an inning all year, and he posted a microscopic ERA after arriving in the Jack Wilson deal. Like Owens, he gives up lots of flyballs, and the ERA will probably take a hit after he's promoted to Lynchburg and faces more batters who have the ability to take him deep. (And ERA is pretty low on the list of tools we should use to evaluate minor league pitchers anyway.) Still, Lorin is a huge dude with a very good performance record, and I see no reason not to be cautiously optimistic about him.

15. Colton Cain, SP, No level. Grade: C+. Previous ranking: 14. Cain still hasn't pitched a pro inning yet, but he was probably the second-best arm the Bucs signed from the '09 draft.

16. Gorkys Hernandez, OF, Altoona. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 10. Hernandez was terrible for Altoona; you have to look pretty hard to find a facet of the game in which he excelled. He's ranked at #16 because of his age, and not because of anything he did this year.

17. Justin Wilson, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: C. Previous ranking: NR. Wilson, the Bucs' fifth-rounder in 2008, makes a big run up the charts with an excellent second half. His disastrous first half now looks like merely an extended adjustment period after an aggressive assignment in his first pro season.

18. Neil Walker, 3B, Pittsburgh. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 26. Walker finished brilliantly at Indianapolis, posting a .339 average in August that made his overall season line respectable. He didn't hit well in 36 at bats in the majors, but that's not such a concern. The problem is that he hits for low averages and, unlike, say, Alvarez, doesn't draw walks. Those are huge red flags. There have been a number of major league third basemen with Walker's basic profile (power, defense, an inability to get on base), such as Brandon IngeTony Batista and Pedro Feliz. But Walker has less power than any of them right now, and while he certainly could add it, it's worth pointing out that all those guys are or were frustrating, though still useful, players.

19. Bryan Morris, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 15. I know this is supposed to be a highly-regarded prospect, but as with Hernandez, it's just about impossible to find anything Morris did well this season. It's too early to write him off, but the Pirates would probably be wise to keep him at Lynchburg next year; he's had a ton of injuries, and he has probably moved a little too quickly.

20. Trent Stevenson, SP, Bradenton. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 19. The live-armed Stevenson was excellent in the GCL, allowing only two runs in his first 15 pro innings.

21. Brooks Pounders, SP, Bradenton. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 18. Don't read anything into Pounders being moved down; he did have one terrible start in August, but otherwise his year was as good as you'd hope. He moves down only because Wilson and Walker move up.

22. Ronald Uviedo, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 22. Uviedo slowed down after missing time in midsummer, but overall he pitched well, especially given that he started in 2009 after relieving in 2008.

23. Victor Black, SP, State College. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 30. Black, a compensation pick for losing out on Tanner Scheppers last year, finished very strongly for the Spikes, and it'll be interesting to see how he does with a heavier workload at West Virginia next year. Baseball America ranked him the sixth-best prospect in the New York-Penn League.

24. Jarek Cunningham, IF, Bradenton. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 24. Cunningham sat out the year with a torn ACL, but now he's back, playing in the Florida Instructional League. Watch out for him next year.

25. Quincy Latimore, OF, West Virginia. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 20. Latimore completely fell apart in August and September. As with a few other players on this list, it's possible he was just tired in his first full season. But Latimore's strike zone control was atrocious the whole year, and that can be the sort of stuff that collapses are made of too. Still, he was young for his level and has terrific power.

26. Exicardo Cayonez, OF, VSL Grade: C. Previous ranking: 25. The VSL season ended soon after the last ranking, so there's no reason to move Cayonez around too much.

27. Nathan Adcock, SP, Lynchburg. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 23. Adcock, another of the pitchers acquired in the Jack Wilson deal, struggled a bit down the stretch, although that's no reason for grave concern, since he pitched about 50 more innings in 2009 than he did in 2008. He'll presumably start out at Lynchburg again in 2010, but a quick start could have him in Altoona by summer.

28. Evan Chambers, OF, State College. Grade: C. Previous ranking: NR. The Pirates' 2009 third-round pick makes the list this time by improving throughout the year for the Spikes--after a .631 OPS in July, he posted an .881 in August and .867 in September. He walked in 20% of his plate appearances, which is impressive for a 19-year-old at any level, but he also struck out 78 times in 200 at bats. It appears he needs to work on finding pitches he can hit earlier in the count. He also struggled against righties.

29. Brock Holt, SS, State College. Grade: C. Previous ranking: NR. Like Chambers, Holt improved throughout State College's season, posting a .738 OPS before the break and a 1.052 OPS after it. He is also, for now, a shortstop. As WTM likes to point out, State College's home park appears to favor lefties like Holt, so it will be interesting to see how he adapts at State College. (Chambers is a righty, and he hit better on the road than at home; for Holt, it was the opposite.)

30. Josh Harrison, IF, Lynchburg. Grade: C. Previous ranking: 21. Harrison has been plain awful since the last ranking, and the chief reason why is that he struck out 19 times compared with only one walk since arriving from the Cubs system in the John Grabow deal. He has controlled the strike zone fairly well in the past, so I'm not sure what happened there. He's not old, but there's a lot working against him, particularly his size and the fact that he's unlikely to ever have enough power to be a regular third baseman.

OFF THE LIST FOR NOW: OF Rogelios Noris, RP Michael Dubee, SS Argenis Diaz.

ALSO WORTH WATCHING (and thanks to WTM and his awesome list of prospects in the Dominican and Venezuelan leagues): C Ramon Cabrera, C Joseph Schoenfeld, 1B Aaron Baker, 1B Calvin Anderson, SS Jordy Mercer, SS Jonathan Barrios, SS Brian Friday, SS Benjamin Gonzalez, SS Jordaneli Carvajal, IF Jim Negrych, 3B Eric Avila, OF David Pino, OF Jesus Vasquez, SP Zack Dodson, SP Jeff Inman, SP Nate Baker, SP Nelson Pereira, SP Mitchell Fienemann, SP Zachary Fuesser, SP Hunter Strickland, SP Aaron Pribanic, SP Jhonathan Ramos, SP Roberto Espinoza, SP Clario Perez, SP Porfirio Lopez, SP Fraylin Campos, SP Jason Erickson, SP Daniel Moskos, SP Eric Hacker, SP Tyler Herron, RP Diego Moreno, RP Casey Erickson, RP Anthony Claggett, RP Jeff Sues

0 recs  |  Comment 83 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

By and large a good list.

Still too high on Sanchez , though, and too low on Uviedo, just like the last time you posted one of these. And a bit high on Walker for my taste as well, compared to some of the arms under him.

One typo: You have Gorkys at #16 on the list, but #15 in his text.

by Vlad on Oct 5, 2009 8:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks re: Gorkys; I’m pretty sure I moved him around.

I’m not that crazy about Sanchez, certainly not “#4 overall pick” crazy. I’m just a little more skeptical than most of Tabata, and after Tabata it’s not at all clear to me who Sanchez might be worse than. It’s a big leap down after Alvarez, and then it levels off quite a bit.

As for Uviedo, it was tough to rank him much higher, given how little he’s done since the last list came out. He should be interesting to revisit in June or so.

I originally had Walker at around #21, but then I figured I was being crazy ranking him below all these totally unproven pitchers. I think he’s reached the point where we probably have to acknowledge that he’s likely going to have some sort of big league career, although it’s an open question what kind of career it will be.

by Charlie on Oct 5, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd probably have him at 4...

…behind Tabata and Lincoln. I was speaking as much about the B+ as I was about the numerical positioning, though – that’s a very aggressive grade for someone in A-ball.

by Vlad on Oct 6, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice work again Charlie.

I like your plan. Keep the lists coming. I would personally rank Tabata ahead of Sanchez. I have to assume that is age is accurate until proven otherwise. In that context, Tabata still has a higher ceiling than Sanchez and is in AAA. I also think Lincoln should be higher than Owens. Given Alderson’s reported loss of velocity and lack of K’s I think you pegged him correctly. Again, nice work.

by Slick1 on Oct 5, 2009 8:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

where is clement? I know he was hurt but I still think he deserves being placed inside the top 30.

by RMUInline3 on Oct 5, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

224 at bats with Seattle last year, so he isn’t eligible.

by Charlie on Oct 5, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

203 at bats, rather.

by Charlie on Oct 5, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Curious

Why is 130 ABs the threshold? Or is that just Sickels’ number, and you stuck with it?

This is a nice, and edifying list, with enough explanation that you start to give a feel for each player. I’ll be very curious to see this updated semi-regularly.

by JRoth95 on Oct 5, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

130 at bats

or 50 IP is MLB’s threshold to qualify for ROY.

by maguro on Oct 5, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

That’s such a low threshold it never occurred to me. A scant quarter-season? ROY after 6 weeks?

Weird.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On further reflection

Or, more to the point, reading some comments below, it’s not about being eligible, it’s about being ineligible – a guy with 130 ABs the previous season has a big leg up on a true rookie in terms of development. Thus, no longer eligible, even tho 130 ABs wouldn’t really be enough to merit ROY consideration.

Speaking of which, when do the awards get announced? Doesn’t it start during the playoffs? Or is it the week after the WS?

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 5:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

I know Alderson’s velocity and K/rate were way down as far as past performances. I know his control is really good as he rarely walks anyone, but how did he do as far as getting ground ball outs? I know that if he gets a ton of ground balls, that can sometimes lessen the alarm you might have for a pitcher who doesn’t get the strikeouts. Either way, cross your fingers for a velocity increase…

by NastyNate82 on Oct 5, 2009 10:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Correction...

that’s groundout to flyout ratio. His walk rate increased in Altoona along with his HR’s. Hopefully he this was just an adjustment thing. I still have high hopes for him but he wasn’t to good once we acquired him.

by Slick1 on Oct 5, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Altoona is in the same league as the Giants affiliate he was pitching at, so I’m not sure what “adjustment” would have been needed, unless you mean adjusting to the Pirates’ coaching.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing to think about that always seems to be out there…some prospects are “highly rated” UNTIL they are traded to the Bucs system. Its become a stigma, but it doesn’t mean its true.

by NastyNate82 on Oct 5, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just to be fair, I’ve been skeptical about Alderson since the day of the trade, and I don’t think I’m generally unfair to Pirates prospects compared to those of other organizations.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're not the only one...

A lot of major publications like Baseball America and Keith Law didn’t view the trade as a steal for the Pirates because they were down on Alderson with the loss of velocity reports.

by Slick1 on Oct 6, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I liked how Baseball America put Alderson in their 2009 midseason top 50, and Kevin Goldstein puts him as a 4 star prospect.

But as soon as he was traded to the Pirates, everyone immediately jumped off the bandwagon and says “We always knew he was a #3 or #4 starter”. BS!

I don’t believe the team could have gotten more for a gimpy Sanchez, though. The deal isn’t bad.

by Adam Reynolds on Oct 6, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s a pretty strong pack-of-jackals approach with scouts and with people writing about prospects. Look at how Alvarez was God, then he was crap, now he’s God again. His improved hitting even affected the evaluations of his fielding—when he was struggling with the bat at Lynchburg, I was reading how there was no way he could play third in the majors.

Pitchers’ velocity does fluctuate from year-to-year, or even within a season as we saw with Ohlendorf this year. Alderson’s a young guy who’s probably still developing physically. If his velocity edges back up next year, all the prospect pundits will suddenly be excited about him again . . . although not as much as they would be if he wasn’t a Pirate prospect.

by WTM on Oct 6, 2009 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't this also Gorkys?

IIRC he was viewed quite highly as a Brave, but here he’s a middling prospect. Now, in his case, I think he was greatly overrated there (weren’t people comparing him favorably to Cutch?) and correctly rated here, but it’s telling.

Of course we never send prospects anywhere, so we can’t test whether the process works in reverse.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I read a comment from NH (I believe) that when we get a pitching prospect we don’t mess with him for 6? months, meaning that there’s no reason there should be any change from his previous performance. Essentially we have not worked with Alderson to any degree. And he is just 20, I believe. i’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Let’s wait until next year at this time before we judge.

by God Loves on Oct 6, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes...

…a bad couple of months is just a bad couple of months. Guys get hot, guys get cold.

by Vlad on Oct 6, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All rankings (and age) aside, what would you say are the top 5 pitchers as far as ceiling? I know so much can happen with pitchers, but what do you think?

by NastyNate82 on Oct 6, 2009 12:22 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ceiling? That’s tough. I’m pretty skeptical of the idea of predicting ceilings for pitchers, because every time somebody does so it usually revolves around how tall someone is and how hard they throw, and the reality is that pitchers succeed for lots of different reasons. I do think that probably Von Rosenberg, Miller, Stevenson, Cain and Black all stand out as having lots of potential upside.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you're going strictly on ceiling...

1. ZVR
2. Cain
3. Miller
4. Stevenson
5. Locke

I think they have the most upside IMO.

by Slick1 on Oct 6, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Locke was another one I debated including. Really, though, the whole concept is so nebulous, much more so than with hitters. You can really imagine any of these guys being anything. Or you can imagine all of them flopping.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

I picked those 5 based on stuff, age and projectability but as you stated it really wouldn’t be a surprise to see most, if not all, flame out. I guess that’s why you need a lot of these guys. This is one reason I liked our draft this year.

by Slick1 on Oct 6, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t write Bryan Morris off. He still has a higher ceiling than most of those guys. He was struggling to get healthy while still trying to move up a level. It wasn’t a good year for him, but the people dismissing him as a failure are jumping the gun.

by WTM on Oct 6, 2009 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True...

I just looked at the fact that he so young anymore given that he has not really shown anyting in terms of results yet. The clock is kind of ticking. But you are right, he is supposed to have a very high ceiling.

by Slick1 on Oct 6, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I was just asking because I realized how difficult it is with all projections of minor leaguers and draft picks, but especially with pitchers. There is so much that can go wrong, not even counting injuries; they have command issues, don’t develop good secondary pitches, lose velocity, etc. A good example of how they flame out are the Mets from Generation K: Bill Pulsipher, Jason Isringhausen, and Paul Wilson. Makes you want to draft a pitcher with every pick.

by NastyNate82 on Oct 6, 2009 12:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As a born Mets fan

I’m still scarred by that.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly...

…Wilson didn’t have a bad career, either. He may not have lived up to the first-overall-pick hype, but 153 starts in a seven-year career is better than a lot of guys do.

by Vlad on Oct 6, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least...

Izzy became a useful piece for a while as a reliever.

by Thunder on Oct 6, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Izzy was a great closer for a decent amount of time. Especially since relievers as a whole vary a lot from year to year. Don’t remember wear I read or heard it, but its been said that if you have three blue-chip pitching prospects, one will get hurt, one will never fulfill expectations, and one will “make it.” Horror stories like this make you nervous about any top-notch prospects the Bucs would have…but thats why you go with quanitity.

by NastyNate82 on Oct 6, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not just a saying: look at the stats here. More than 1/3 of all pitching prospects in the top 75 “bust,” which leaves you with 2/3 who will have at least some success.

In some sense, we should come up with a different rating system between pitchers and hitters to reflect the disparate outcomes – a “top 10” hitter is at least 50% more likely to succeed, on some level, than a “top 10” pitcher.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Daniel Moskos

he had a decent year in Altoona, with a 11 wins, a 3.74 ERA and a former 4th overall pick (even though he was a littlefield guy) and just 23 yrs old i think he deserves a top 30 consideration but thats just my opinion

by BigB23 on Oct 6, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looking at wins/ERA for prospects is deceiving at best. Maybe starting will build up his arm strength so he can be an decent reliever eventually, but I think it’s an extreme longshot he will be an adequate MLB starter. Has any decent starter in the past 30 years had such a poor strikeout rate in the minors?

by wickethewok on Oct 6, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His peripherals suck.

4.7 K/9, 3.5 BB/9, more than a hit per inning.

It represents improvement, but he’s still no more than an outside chance at becoming a situational reliever.

by Vlad on Oct 6, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Granted it Was AA for Moskos

but Rick Porcello’s peripherals are not impressive either.

4.706 K/9, 2.75 BB/9, more than a hit per inning

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=29966

by God Loves on Oct 7, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Porcello is also nearly 3 years younger than Moskos. I think Moskos might eventually have some uses, probably as a reliever, but he’s going to be nowhere near as good as Porcello.

by NastyNate82 on Oct 7, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

The difference between a 20-year-old playing in MLB and a 23-year-old playing in AA is just huge.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pedro

He was the top prospect in his draft class, then he was only about top 30 in the preseason stuff.

Where do you guys rank him in all of the minor leagues?

by Mr. E on Oct 6, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Haven’t really thought about it, to be honest.

Higher than 30, though.

by Vlad on Oct 6, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're being a little unfair on Donnie Veal, Charlie.

I’m not sure warming the Pirates bench should count as MLB service time.

Veal put up decent numbers as a twenty-four year old at Altoona although he was restricted to a couple of innings a start during rehab assignments.

Surely he’ll restart his minor league career as a full time starter in the Indianapolis rotation next year, and could be every bit the prospect Daniel McCutchen was this season.

by RDV across the sea on Oct 6, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Nonetheless, Veal would be ineligible for the ROY award next year because of his service time. There was nothing unfair about not including him.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

‘Any player with less than 130 big-league at bats or less than 50 big-league innings pitched is eligible for inclusion, unless I arbitrarily determined he spent too much time in the big leagues despite not reaching those thresholds. (I’m leaving off Steven Jackson and Donald Veal for that reason.)’

Veal has 16.1 MLB innings pitched in his career.

Isn’t this is an arbitrary decision by you to not include him?

Am I missing something?

If Veal was eligible for your list, would he make the top 30?

by RDV across the sea on Oct 6, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He might be near the end of the top 30.

It just seems weird to describe someone who has spent most of the year in the big leagues as a prospect, even if he hasn’t played much. For what it’s worth, the MLB eligibility requirement is that you’re not eligible for the ROY if you had more than 45 days of non-September service time before that, and by my calculations both Veal and Jackson did this year.

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see what you’re saying about the service time and I agree… rules are rules.

However, when Spring Training 2010 starts, I think Veal will be regarded as a prospect with a pretty high ceiling. The BA against at Altoona and Indy were very good. I know he still has huge control issues but he never got chance to find a rhythm in 2009.

Can we put him at No. 1 in the Pirates Ineligible Prospects Top 30 Prospects List?

by RDV across the sea on Oct 6, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on the criteria. :)

by Charlie on Oct 6, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not terribly much difference in the profiles of Evan Meek and Donnie Veal in their first years here and we’re touting Meek as a potential closer now.

Its not a stretch to think that Veal could be a valuable bullpen cog as soon as next season.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 6, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe that Veal is being moved to a starting role and will work on that more in winter ball

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 6, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well that doesn’t strike me as a good idea.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 6, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I may be wrong about this but I believe he was a started for most of his minor league career particularly early in his career when he was putting up very good numbers.

I think it was only when he lost control that he became a reliever.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on Oct 7, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He started for his entire time with the Cubs and at the end his control was pretty poor which caused his strikeout rate to plummet and his hit rate to skyrocket once he hit AA ball.

Then, once he showed up here, it truly went to hell.

I can’t blame management for making certain that Veal doesn’t have a future as a starting pitcher, I just don’t expect it to be overly successful. I still have hope for him as a reliever though.

by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 7, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being used as a SP in the minors...

…doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re projecting him as a SP in the majors. It’s pretty standard practice to use your best pitching prospects as SP in the minors regardless of projection, because that gives them the most reps to implement mechanical corrections and such.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Help!

Can’t find the Minnesota-Detroit game on the radio. Who’s carrying it?

If it’s supposed to be on 1250 and they’re carrying whatever bullshit is on right now instead, I’ll be so pissed.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I love that Gameday/StubHub is offering to sell me tickets to see the Pirates/Dodgers games next April.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

about this feature

Charlie: I like it, and I’d love to see it as a regular quarterly thing or something like that. Thanks for doing it. Two additions I’d like, personally, are a link to each player’s baseball cube page (or a similar page with college and minor league statistics) and a brief discussion about players like Veal and Clement who may not qualify as prospects exactly, but for all intents and purposes are just that in the context of the Pirates’ future. Thanks again.

by epoc on Oct 6, 2009 8:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

bb-ref is better than the Cube now for minors. Has fielding stats, for one thing.

by WTM on Oct 6, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, bb-ref has DSL and VSL, too.

by WTM on Oct 6, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh

I’ve been really disappointed by DSL. I think I need to switch to cable.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

minorleaguesplits

might be even better. They’ve got totalzone ratings for defense now, which I prefer to the rf from b-ref. Then again, it’s kind of nice to see the college stats for recently drafted players like Sanchez. Whatever. Either way, I’d like a link to the stats.

by epoc on Oct 7, 2009 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All kinda stuff out there now, and it’s getting better all the time.

by WTM on Oct 7, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One remaining advantage of Cube:

Draft position on all player pages.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

All those missing stat lines, though.

by WTM on Oct 7, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those bother me less...

…than the wrong ones.

by Vlad on Oct 8, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

This DET-MIN game is amazing. Making me all the more pissed that it’s not on the radio (or that I can’t find it. But I think it’s 1250).

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 9:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OK, I have no idea why, but I’m psyched that Minnesota won. I have nothing against the Tigers – I kind of like the Tigers – but I’ve been wanting the Twins to catch them for weeks now. Underdogism run amok, I guess.

by JRoth95 on Oct 6, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very, Very Easy

To 2nd guess that one, but it sure sounds like Leyland messed that one up…

by God Loves on Oct 7, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When Littlefield was GM...

it seemed like everything would go wrong. Now with Huntington we are having some success with the players we get. Is this a result of superior scouting or did Littlefield purposefuly try to piss Pirate fans off?

by joegonzo on Oct 6, 2009 10:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

When do our 2 picks

from last year get out of active Army duty?

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 7, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

IIRC...

…they get the option to buy out of service after 2 years of active duty.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking

mebbe they got “paroled” to regional duty, like it used to be done.

BTW, are you ever gonna revive Black and Gold?

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Oct 7, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Potentially.

I just moved a little while ago, and I still don’t have internet at the house, so at a minimum I probably need to wait for that.

Verizon is stupid.

by Vlad on Oct 8, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rudy Owens...

What is his ceiling? Could he be a Cliff Lee type pitcher?

by joegonzo on Oct 7, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He doesn't have Lee's pure stuff right now.

But it’s tough to speak too firmly about the ceiling for any arm in A-ball.

by Vlad on Oct 7, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

101_0170_small
40-Man Moves
18470r_small
Rule 5 possibilities
20080124sgrammy_330_small
Small Market Teams Pocketing Spare Change
Small
Jeebus Cracker
Small
McCutchen's defense
Small
Roberto calling
20090612mf_fleury_cup_500hp_small
Pirates would trade Doumit!
Leo4_small
John Sickels' Comments on Donnie Veal
Pitt20_small
LaRoche to the Phils?
Bloody_mary_small
Ohlendorf Blogging: USDA can't keep him "down on the farm."

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Mariners Eyeing Doumit
Tabata 5-5 w/3 Ribbies - Hitting .390 @ EOS
Bay rejects $60M over 4 years
"[Chase D'Arnaud] does everything well enough," said an American League...
Pirates hire Steve Williams as Major League scout
Jim Tracy, Baby! NL Manager of the Year!
2009 Minor League Six-Year Free Agent Listing
NL Rookie of the Year: Chris Coghlan
2010 CHONE Projections
2010 UZR Projections

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SPONSORS


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie