JJ Hardy
by FusilliJerry88 on Oct 7, 2009 8:41 PM EDT
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What do you guys think about going after JJ Hardy this offseason? I think it follow his history of buying low on high ceiling talent, and would be worth the risk. Over the years I've seen alot of JJ Hardy playing in the NL Central and all. He always seemed to kill the pirates (who does'nt though), and I always thought how nice it'd be to have him in Pittsburgh; above average power and defense although he never really hit for average. I believe he would be an upgrade over Cedeno next year or would even create some competition in spring training at the least. What do you guys think?
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Not a bad idea. Especially since Duke is one of those “pitch-to-contact” guys who I think will have difficulty replicating his success this year. If Hardy is a free agent after 2011, what is Duke’s free agency situation? Maholm’s?
I d want more for Duke
than Hardy… it would also cause the problem of SS in the system, which seems pretty unnecessary, since neither should be sent to AAA after picking them up in a trade. That’s a waste of a spot. I can’t see us giving up Duke for Hardy, at this point… maybe if they offered a good bit more, there would be the possibility of flipping Hardy over for someone else (would anyone want Cedeno? I doubt… not because he’s not good, but because I don’t think people would give up prospects for him at this time of year)
Hardy is a lot better than Cedeno, so you don’t worry about having 2 shortstops….you keep Cedeno around on the bench or get rid of him, but he doesn’t block Hardy.
I honestly don’t think they can get much more for Duke than Hardy…you’re talking about getting a starting SS that put up WARs of 4.5 and 4.9 in 07 and 08 before a bad season this year. Even 2009 Hardy is a significant ugrade over Cedeno, so the risk isn’t all that great, and if he returns to form he’s an impact player.
No idea if Milwaukee would be interested, but the Pirates should do that deal if it’s offered.
-1
The Brewers would jump at that.
It may not have been true last year, but right now- Duke is worth more.
I like Hardy- the Bucs should be looking at him. But given Hardy’s recent play, they shouldn’t have to give up Duke to get him.
by my dixie wrecked on Oct 8, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
If I'm going to trade for a veteran MIF this offseason...
…I probably target Kelly Johnson in Atlanta, rather than Hardy. He’d cost less to acquire, and I think 2B is a bigger hole for us than SS at the moment, though both are concerns. Also, Johnson’s offensive struggles this year were mostly a function of a big drop in BABIP, so he’s a good candidate for a rebound. He’s also able to be a credible starter at 3B and in an OF corner, and that versatility gives him added value in a lineup as unsettled as ours.
Hardy for Duke would be a pretty fair deal on value, though, and I could see the Brewers being interested in adding a SP.
Johnson would probably be very close to LaRoche at 2nd, given the minus fielding and also considering that his BABIP were higher than expected in 07-08. He would be inferior if LaRoche still has upside, IMO.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 8, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, yeah.
But right now, we still need LaRoche for 3B, so that’s not really the issue.
In the scenario I’m talking about, we’d have LaRoche at 3B and Johnson at 2B until Pedro’s ready. If, at that time, Pedro looks like he can handle 3B and LaRoche looks like he can handle 2B, Johnson becomes a super-sub and gets ~3/4 starts a week as a backup at 2B, 3B, LF, and RF.
There’s a possibility Johnson will be a FA, though, And he’s definitely not going to be type A.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
You really think he's going to be non-tendered?
I guess it’s possible, but I’d assumed that the Braves would just trade him on the cheap before letting that happen.
what about moving Cedeno to 2nd? I believe he played alot of 2nd base while with the cubs…I’d much rather see us move LaRoche to 2nd, but if they don’t decide to do that, and Pedro is still in the minors move Cedeno to 2nd and acquire Hardy for shortstop…
Hell...
I’d rather see us sign a FA SS like Scutaro rather than trade some of our most valuable assets for two year stop gap. Again, Duke is worth more than a 2nd round draft pick. Lord knows we have the money. Duke should be used to bring in young, potential impact talent. Not someone who will be hear two years and out. We should look to fill a middle IF position via the FA market. There are plenty of names out there that could work…assuming we could get any of them to sign with us.
Scutaro is a type A.
So you’d be giving up valuable assets (i.e. the second pick of the second round) in order to sign him.
There are a few solid MIF options on the FA market, but not all that many. I think Iwamura might be our best bet there, if Tampa declines his option.
Yeah I know his a type A...
My premise is the Duke > 2nd round draft pick. I proposed Scutaro as a better alternative to trading for Hardy. Iwamura is an option because he will most likely have his optioned declined. He is an upgrade but he doesn’t get me too excited. Don’t know if I wouldn’t want to keep DY there until Laroche is ready to switch. Reading Coonelly’s chat this is very likely to happen so I think we are better off focussing on a SS if we don’t think Cedeneo is the answer.
And thats being charitable to Scutaro.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Hardy of last year...
It’s quite and assumption to expect Hardy to revert to 07 and 08 form. Even with Hardy’s glove he was still only a 1.4 WAR to Scutaro’s 4.4 last season. I get your point but I personally would rather keep Duke, Sign Scutaro and forfit the 2nd rounder, which let’s be honest, doesn’t mean as much as it used to given the Pirate’s drafting strategy the last couple of years. We drafter ZVR in what, the sixth round?
I would've rather...
…drafted one ZVR in the 2nd and another in the 6th. Our 2nd next year is a really valuable pick. No reason to blow it unnecessarily.
Honestly, my preference would be to trade Duke for something else of value (involving more years of team control), keep the pick, and either sign a lower-tier FA or make do with Cedeno for a year.
WIth that I agree...
and somehow I knew you were going to say that about the 2nd round pick. I didn’t mean to suggest that it is not valuable but our propensity for over the slot signings can definitely off set losing that pick somewhat. However, we are not ready to contend so in that context I do believe the 2nd round pick is probably more important than signing a type A stop gap.
No Scutaro. His career stinks except for this year.
I agree with Vlad that if we’re trading Duke, it should be for players with team control.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 8, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said traid Scutaro for Duke...
I only favor trading Duke for young, potential impact players under team control for 6 years. I was offering signing Scutaro as a FA and forfitting the 2nd round pick as an alternative to trading Duke for Hardy. I think Duke is way more valuable to us at this point than Hardy is.
I love Scutaro but he’s a career utilityman going on 34…definitely not worth a 2nd round pick and most likely not going to be as valuable as Hardy next year even.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 8, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That is...
if we decide to trade Duke at all. I expect his ERA to regress a little bit next year. He finished the year with a tRA
was over 5.00 and our middle infield defense will most likely not be as good as it was last year. Probably a good candidate to sell high with only 2 years of control left.
Yeah.
I’d shop him fairly aggressively this offseason. I just don’t know that I’d rather have Hardy than some of the other options out there.
Who needs starting pitching worse than the Brewers though? We can take most any legit offer back to them and they’re going to have to top it.
by MrPedriqueIfYoureNasty on Oct 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
I wasn’t suggesting Duke for Hardy and as I state up above I’m against it. I do think we should be looking for middle infield help though.
What about Mat Gamel? Good fit because he has upside as maybe a 1B moreso than our other options, or bad fit because we already have Jones/Clement and he struck out way too much last year? Just throwing it out there.
Apparently Melvin has indicated that McGehee is their guy at 3B, so that may put Gamel in play.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/mat-gamel-trade-bait.html
I’m not too crazy about Gamel myself, don’t think he can play anywhere but 1B and his bat doesn’t look so hot there.
I should have asked whether he is a good fit if he’s available as MLBTR hinted yesterday. It might be unlikely, but you never know.
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 8, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe in the bat...
…even if he’s only a 1B. That said, it’s not exactly a position of need right now.
The best example of “You never know who will be available”, btw, is Milledge. Who’d have thought before the season that the Nats would be shopping him for our spare parts?
by Adam Reynolds on Oct 8, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
i wouldn’t call nyjer morgan spare parts. burnett maybe but there’s no arguing that morgan had a fantastic year. in 2 or 3 years, he’ll probably be a spare part but it’s an unfair characterization of his value at the time of the trade.
I guess you never know...
…but the Brewers were reportedly unwilling to move him at all as recently as the trading deadline, FWIW.
My interpretation of the Melvin speak is that he could be moved for the right deal. I don’t think that means they’re going to be calling around and saying “hey we want to move this guy.”
Dunno.
I heard that they pulled entirely out of several sets of trade discussions when asked about Gamel or Escobar.
Maybe nothing for sale at the deadline was tasty enough, but they’d move him for something else.
Do you disagree with me?
Sounds like we are more or less on the same wavelength. Gamel and Esco were untouchable at the trade deadline. The article that started the speculation said that they might take a different view on “top prospects” in the off season. I’d guess that Esco is no longer considered a prospect.
Not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing.
Just thinking out loud.
I like Gamel’s bat a lot, even if it’d be tough to fit him into the lineup.
I wouldn't ignore Hardy...
but wouldn’t give up the farm to get him. Getting someone like him certainly gives you 2 seasons to hope that D’Arnaud or Mercer…or someone else…has time to get ready. Defensively…he’s highly rated at SS by UZR…which puts him ahead of Cedeno…in my eyes.
The only question is which version of JJ Hardy is the real thing…the 2007-2008 version…or the 2009 version? If it’s the 2009 version…resign Jack Wilson…if it’s the 2007-2008 version…he’s a good grab.
Duke, Hardy, etc.
Sounds like a bunch of Littlefields, each trying to do dumber thingsl
Tom Specht
Why trade for someone?
There are some competent FA’s out there, and we have money to burn, not talent. Even if what we have is pretty mediocre, it’s still possible to get something good for it (see Nady, Xavier), rather than just more mediocrity.
Nady won't be ready to start the season...
and the version of him we’d be getting may not be the version of him we want. I think we pass.
I believe he was refering to the surprising value that was recieved in the Nady/Marte trade.
He was saying that even though Nady was mediocre, a team (Yankmes) was still willing to give up talent to get him, maybe a reference to the Duke trade talks above. Not that the PBC should sign Nady again. He did kind of run 2 thoughts together in the same paragraph.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Oct 10, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
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