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Pirates Can't Learn Much From Phillies

Philadelphia Phillies' Cole Hamels throws against the Arizona Diamondbacks, Tuesday, July 28, 2009, in Phoenix. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)

More photos » by Ross D. Franklin - AP

Philadelphia Phillies' Cole Hamels throws against the Arizona Diamondbacks, Tuesday, July 28, 2009, in Phoenix. (AP Photo/Ross D. Franklin)

John Mehno has the right idea in this Beaver County Times column about the differences between the Pirates and Phillies--it's not primarily about spending, it's about building by acquiring amateur talent. But while the technique of comparing some great Phillies draft picks (Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, and so on) to picks the Pirates botched at similar points in their drafts is effective for an article written with a word count for a general audience, it doesn't quite tell the whole story.

The Phillies' case is really weird. If you look at their drafts under previous GM Ed Wade (that's basically the time frame described in the Beaver County article), it's very surprising they've been so successful. Working backwards, the best player they got in 2005 was current Athletics reliever Josh Outman; they also got current Reds reliever Matt Maloney. That was it. In 2004 they got J.A. Happ in the third round, Jason Jaramillo in the second, and Lou Marson in the fourth, but they also took Greg Golson as a dubious tools pick in the first round and got nothing in the later rounds. In 2003 they had no first- or second-round pick; they got Michael Bourn and Kyle Kendrick, and that was it. 

In 2002 the Phils took Cole Hamels in the first round, which was obviously a great pick, but they got absolutely nothing else. In 2001, it was Gavin Floyd in the first round and Howard in the fifth, and absolutely nothing else. In 2000, they got Utley, Taylor Buchholz and nothing else. In 1999, it was Brett Myers, Marlon Byrd and nothing else. (They also drafted Joe Saunders, but didn't sign him.)

Now, maybe this doesn't sound too noteworthy to some of you. Maybe you think that if you get one good player out of a draft, that's great, and to a certain extent that's true. In this case, the results speak for themselves. But what's odd to me about the Phillies' drafts under Wade is how incredibly thin they were. Wade seemed to get a star player and almost nothing else every year for several seasons in a row. That's strange.

Star-divide

To see what I mean, let's take a look at Wade's first draft for the Phillies in 1998. He took Pat Burrell with the first overall pick (a bit of a no-brainer), but he also got several moderately useful players later on, such as Jason Michaels, Geoff Geary and Nick Punto.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter that much if you fail to identify the next Nick Punto in your draft, but it does raise the question of why, if the Phillies are supposed to be a good example of intelligent drafting, they were able to identify so many star players but so few other future productive major leaguers. 

Here's an example. In 2000 the Phillies got Utley, who single-handedly made the draft a very successful one for Philadelphia. The same year, the Pirates got Chris Young, Nate McLouth, Ian Snell, Jose Bautista and Sean Burnett. I'd say the Pirates actually did a much better job in that draft, even though it turned out worse--Dave Littlefield stupidly traded away Young a couple years later, and first-rounder Burnett's career was derailed with a ton of injuries. Drafting players who will stay healthy and helping them stay healthy involve skills, of course, and it certainly helps to not take a pitcher in the first round every year like the Pirates did. But there's luck involved too. For example, the Phillies were notably lucky that, for example, high school draftee Hamels basically made it to the majors with his elbow and shoulder intact, particularly after he missed huge chunks of his minor league career with injuries.

In 2001 the Phillies got Floyd, later sent to the White Sox in the Jim Thome trade, and Howard. That was all. Again, the Pirates had a much more robust draft, grabbing a number of moderately useful players in Zach Duke, Chris Shelton, Jeff Keppinger, Chris Duffy, Jonathan Albaladejo and Rajai Davis. (They also might have had some shot of signing 11th-rounder Stephen Drew if Littlefield, who was hired shortly after the draft, hadn't dropped the ball.) The Pirates royally messed up their first-round pick, John Van Benschoten, and that was their fault, but again, I'm not really convinced that Wade and the Phillies had a better idea of what they were doing.

Of course, Littlefield and his team started drafting in 2002, and after that all bets are off. There's no defending much of anything Littlefield did. My point, though, is that I'm not sure the Wade-era Phillies are a particularly good model here. In fact, it looks to me that they repeatedly got very lucky with about one pick each year and totally bombed the rest of their drafts under Wade, with the exceptions of 1998 and 2004. I don't mean to take anything away from the Phillies, who have generally been pretty well run since Wade left. But If there are things the Pirates can learn from this, they are the very basic points that, first, it's generally very important not to screw up first-round picks, and second, that it's important to build a core of homegrown stars. Beyond that, the Phillies' example doesn't tell us a whole lot. 

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I'd defend DL on drafting:

Paul Maholm, Tom Gorzelanny, Andrew McCutchen, Matt Capps and Nyjer Morgan. The jury’s still out on Brad Lincoln, Neil Walker and Daniel Moskos, but right now it looks like Lincoln could be a major league pitcher next year and Moskos won’t be one anytime soon. Neil Walker is still young, but it’s hard to tell if he’ll accomplish much, especially after a terrible September. Ultimately, it’s a small group. McCutchen is probably the only great player they got in 6 years of drafting. The rest, which isn’t a lot, are average to below average players. And the PBC Blog crowd are blaming Huntington for the losing?

by IAPiratesFan on Nov 1, 2009 5:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

DL draftee Rudy Owens also looks good at this point along with those others. But that’s it.

by Adam Reynolds on Nov 2, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

Forgot all about him. And even if we can add him to the list of successful DL draft picks at some point in the future, it’s still a very short list.

by IAPiratesFan on Nov 2, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In every one of Littlfield's first round picks...

If you choose the very next player taken in the draft, you have a better pick. The only possible difference is Andrew McCutchen over Jay Bruce, but the jury is still out on that as well.

2002 Bullington or BJ Upton?
2003 Maholm or John Danks?
2004 Walker or Jered Weaver?
2005 AMac or Jay Bruce?
2006 Lincoln or Brandon Morrow?
2007 Moskos or Wieters?

Seriously, it’s hard to do that so consistently! Imagine what the Pirates would look like if DL had just said “what would the next team do and let’s do that”.

by MarkInDallas on Nov 3, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Lincoln/Morrow one isn’t a slam dunk, either, IMO.

by Vlad on Nov 3, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bruce/McCutchen is still way up in the air. Bruce still has monster power, but has been below expectations. He has more upside. Cutch has defied most expectations so far. Dunno if I’d trade them as a Bucs fan, but it’s close.

by Adam Reynolds on Nov 3, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. Tough to tell with those two. Plus, its difficult to decide which one is more valuable since they’re completely different kinds of players. Even struggling last year, Bruce showed that awesome power. And as good (and often great) as Cutch is, Bruce’s debut against the Bucs in 2007 showed all his potential. This much I know…it’d be great to have both of them!

by NastyNate82 on Nov 3, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like the moral of the article is “It’s better to be lucky then good”

"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell

by Ketcham Bruce on Nov 1, 2009 6:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’d take both. :)

by Charlie on Nov 1, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s even a bit more luck to it than just the draft results. The Phillies aggressively tried to trade Howard after a monster minor league season, including offers to the A’s for Barry Zito, and our Pirates for Kris Benson. They also took Victorino in the Rule 5 and tried to give him back, but the Dodgers let them keep him without even making a trade. Werth was also a guy the Dodgers just threw away.

by ElDuce on Nov 2, 2009 1:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Getting stars is the key for a truly competitive team, whether it’s Longoria, Tulowitzki, Utley or whoever. A bunch of “moderately useful” players like Zach Duke and Chris Duffy, Jeff Keppinger etc. doesn’t make a competitive team without grabbing up the big guns when you have an opportunity (which is a mixture of luck and talent evaluation). There’s no excuse for not pulling in any core players somewhere in the draft with a yearly top 10 pick, even if you find nice little complementary talent like Duke and McLouth in the later rounds.

by Adam Reynolds on Nov 1, 2009 7:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You acknowledge luck is a factor, so how can there be “no excuse”?

Certainly the Pirates could have drafted better in the first round. Grabbing pitchers year after year can be a recipe for disaster. But I’m not sure that the Phillies’ strategy in the first round really reflects any awareness of that. And my point here is that I don’t think the ability to identify second-tier talent in the later rounds and the ability to identify first-tier in the first round are appreciably different skills. So for me the Phillies’ success with drafting superstars mostly boils down to luck, because their poor drafting in the late rounds certainly makes their success earlier in the draft look like a fluke.

by Charlie on Nov 1, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Could be a function of drafting for upside potential rather than minimal downside risk.

If you focus on ceiling over safe mid-level projection, you’ll get larger numbers of both outright busts and superstars.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 8:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But surely, once you pass the first couple rounds, there’s not that big a distinction. Are you really going for “high upside potential” with the 235th overall pick?

Also, it seems like the odds should turn up someone other than the one star – it’s not like the Phils drafted 20 guys with a 5% chance of being an All-Star slugger, and Howard just happened to be the one who made it. Down in the 5th-15th rounds, you’re looking at guys with, say, a 5-10% chance of being a useful part; over a few years, you should be getting 2-3 guys in that category, not zero.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, that's where it matters most.

Do you take the projectable hard thrower from high school, with no breaking ball and shaky command? Or the crafty college lefty who doesn’t have the body to be more than a back-of-the-rotation starter or situational lefty?

In general, one quality contributor (not necessarily a star, but a guy who’s a regular for ~10 years in the league) and a couple bit players is an average return on a draft class.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Guys drop in the draft for another reason…signability. ZVR was considered possible first-rounder on talent alone, but he dropped because it was thought his commitment to LSU was strong. You’re right Vlad, later in the draft is where you have to take your chances on those high ceilinged guys

by NastyNate82 on Nov 2, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha

Some of it depends on whether you hedge your bets – it’s not like the 20th round crafty lefty has an especially high likelihood of success, so if you pick half fireballers/big swingers and half mediocrities, you may well end up with zero – or a couple in each camp. It’s a crapshoot.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’d think that in all these years, maybe by accident the Buccos would have had a draft that produced a star player of Howard’s or Hamel’s caliber. This is incredibly cynical, but it almost deserves special praise to screw up drafts for that long a time period.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 2, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s still a bit early to call it for sure, but mccutchen could be that accident.

by johnnycuff on Nov 2, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, sorry about the moronic posting…totally forgot (how?!?!) about McCutchen.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We did get Kendall.

A lot of people kind of take him for granted because of the ugly tail on his Pittsburgh career, but before the thumb injury, he was right up there with the all-time greats.

Which doesn’t excuse the large number of blown picks around him, of course.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

F^@(ing Hollandsworth.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 2, 2009 7:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also,

yet another reason to resurrect the website, Vlad.

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 2, 2009 7:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

The more heavily you weight ceiling over minimal downside, the lower your overall amount of system depth. You have more guys who wash out at the lower levels of the minors, rather than becoming solid organizational players, so you have to work harder to keep your rosters staffed at AA and AAA, and you’re more dependent on minor league FAs when you need injury replacements as filler on the ML roster.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And yet

Somehow the Bucs managed to have few/no upside guys and not enough organizational guys.

NastyNate is right, though – throughout all the bad management, the Bucs have also been unlucky the last 17 years (hell, you mentioned Kendall – what about that freak ankle? I was at that game, btw, right at field level – 3rd base side, thank god). First round pitchers may be a bad bet, but for all of them to get hurt*? And for basically none of the MiL guys who flashed promise to come through, for even a few years? I checked a couple months ago – in 17 years, they only exceeded their ExW a couple of times (and only once by more than a game or three), while they fell below it about 10 times. Not that a slightly lucky 82-80 team would have been great or anything, but still, it’s a sign of their relentlessly bad luck.

  • I guess Maholm’s an exception

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If they were underperforming their Pythag...

…some of that was probably a reflection of poor performance by the manager. Lloyd in particular was terrible at playing the percentages – we used sac bunts and the hit-and-run in wildly inappropriate game situations, used bad relievers disproportionately in high-leverage situations, made Nunez our primary PH, stole bases below the break-even rate, etc.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, they never were more than 2 games behind Pythag under Lloyd (and were once 2 games ahead) until the year he was fired (when they were quite a few behind, but that was I think a team that gave up on its manager, not a mismanaged team as such). The only time they outperformed their Pythag by more than a game or two was under Leyland, whatever that means.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But to be clear

That doesn’t exonerate Lloyd – it just means that his bad management was reflected in the RA/RS as well as their outcomes.

I always thought he was an odd sort of mismatch for the teams he had – he was scrappy, which was appropriate, but also loved veterans, which was stupid. Nunez as PH was a weird fetish for any manager, even given the weakness of his other options.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

N.B.

Team was a collective 5 games below ExW in Tracy’s 2 years – hardly surprising.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 5:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Luck is a factor. But given the Law of Averages, over a significant length of time the odds of coming up with continuous crap purely by luck decreases significantly.

Over a 20 year span (1988-2007), the top 10 draft player successes in the order they were drafted for the Pirates are Wakefield, Womack, Kendall, Arroyo, Doumit, Chris Young, McLouth, Duke, Maholm, and McCutchen. That doesn’t cut it, and it represents multiple generations of horribleness. Like Vlad said, it’s drafting for safety instead of upside, which gives the team a lot of utility players if they’re lucky.

by Adam Reynolds on Nov 2, 2009 5:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Better luck alone wouldn’t have gotten them to sustained success. But even average luck would have left them with a winning season or two, plus an extra star-level player or two – a much less grim timespan (and there have certainly been some bad knock-on decisions – DL was never a good baseball executive, but his perverse run in the second half of his tenure here wouldn’t have been quite so desperate if it hadn’t followed 9 years of bad luck).

Anyway.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why can't Duke be considered a core player?

He’s a solid-enough number three starter on a lot of teams.

by Suffering Buc on Nov 1, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Although his years in the wilderness make this less clearcut. But I think that the evidence is that 2009 Duke was the real deal. On a winning team, he’d be a well-known player, if not a star.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure...but not really.

Looking at his stats say that he had a typical season for himself. His career average K/9 is 4.6 and this year it was 4.5. His BB/9 career average is 2.4 and this year it was 2.1. Career average WHIP is 1.450 and this year it was 1.315. His career ERA+ is 98. This year it’s 99 and he had the same ERA+ in 2006. In other words Zach Duke is an average pitcher.

I think you can give a lot more credit for Duke’s “improvement” to the following people: Andrew McCutchen, Lastings Milledge, Nyjer Morgan, Brandon Moss, Andy LaRoche, Jack Wilson, Ronny Cedeno and Freddy Sanchez. Also not having Jason Bay, Nate McLouth, Xavier Nady, Luis Rivas, Jose Bautista and Chris Gomez around probably helped out a bit too.

As for him being a “star”, I don’t know about that. He’d probably be a forth or fifth starter with the Yankees. On an average team, he’d be a third starter. After his playing days are done, he’ll probably be remembered as an average pitcher.

by IAPiratesFan on Nov 2, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

By “a well-known player, if not a star” I meant “He wouldn’t be a star, but people would know who he is.” I absolutely agree that – barring circumstance like being on a big winner – he’s destined for post-career anonymity. I understand how it could read the other way.

Part of my point about this year being the real deal is that it wasn’t an outlier, talentwise. The years of 5.5 and 4.86 ERAs were the outliers (although, to be clear, his own performances were worse those years – there’s a big difference between a K/BB of 2.16 and 1.64; also, I tend to think that a pitcher with a BABIP of .370 is probably dealing with a bit more than just bad luck and bad defense).

If Zach Duke has a ten year career as a healthy lefty with an ERA+ of ~100 most years, he’ll be a valuable guy, if not a… never mind.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your general point but.....

Over the years that you’re talking about, the Pirates gave playing time- and lots of it- to an unbelievable number of questionable players. Those same players would simply never get that chance with a good team. They may not have made AA. So the Pirates are bound to turn up a handful of moderately useful players. That’s all there was.

by my dixie wrecked on Nov 2, 2009 1:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy that

First of all, if anything, the boneheaded Pirates took too long to recognize the value of McLouth, even if a championship-grade team might not have given him a chance – probably 20 teams in the league figure out his value before the Pirates did.

But more importantly, talent will out. Baseball people know that pedigree shouldn’t carry much weight – Posada was a 24th-rounder, frex. Didn’t stop him from making the bigs in 5 years.

I suppose I take your point about more marginal players not getting a chance in better-stocked systems, but Charlie wasn’t talking about Steve Pearce types – most of the players he names would get a good look in any organization (it was the Mets who grabbed Joey Bats, after all).

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Posada maybe isn't the best example.

The Yankees were still giving Joe Girardi substantial amounts of playing time several years after Posada earned that job on merit.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I just meant

that he wasn’t buried in A-ball – the Yankees recognized him as a talented player and promoted him, even if he didn’t start as soon as he might have.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

Wasn’t disputing your larger point – just had Girardi on the brain with all the playoff games I’ve been watching lately.

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No problem

I’m really displeased with how these playoffs have gone. Can’t believe even the Phils are sucking it up. The way the last 2 games have gone, I won’t even get hopeful if they win tonight.

by JRoth95 on Nov 2, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When looking at the Pirates' drafts...

…you really need to draw a bright line between the Mickey White drafts (which went deep and provided multiple quality players) and the drafts by everyone else: Ed Creech, Leland Maddox, etc. (which sucked in pretty much all respects, but particularly depth).

by Vlad on Nov 2, 2009 8:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Size

Has anyone ever looked at the size of Philly players most are big strong and athletic power players . Ron

by Ron J on Nov 3, 2009 12:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Noticed that at a game I went to

2-3 years ago. The Phillies had 5-6 players all built like cinder blocks (Howard, Abreu, even the backup catcher, Fasano). Pirates had nobody who looked even remotely like that. Still don’t.

by bucdaddy on Nov 3, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because little guys never use steroids.

Just ask Manny Alexander, or F.P. Santangelo, or Fernando Vina.

Keerist.

by Vlad on Nov 3, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we should follow the Yankees’ building plan.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Nov 3, 2009 12:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Doubtful...

we don’t have anyone that will pay for the materials. When we see Nutting sign 3 guys for a total of $400 million plus…then we can follow the Yankees plan.

by Thunder on Nov 3, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.

Last Christmas I said to my uncle that the Yankees were rebuilding again.

by IAPiratesFan on Nov 3, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You can complain about the Yanks if you want. I think as a Bucs fan, I’d like to have guys who come through the system be as productive as Jeter, Pettite, Posada and Rivera almost 15 years later. It all starts with the homegrown dudes.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 3, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For almost any team but the Yankees...

….guys like Jeter, Posada, and Rivera would’ve chased the $$ onto someone else’s roster years ago.

by Vlad on Nov 4, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not if they kept winning.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 5, 2009 5:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, then too.

by Vlad on Nov 5, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If thats what you think, I don’t think I’ll try to change your mind. People always have their mind made up about the Yankees and its worthless to try and debate about them because people see them in black and white. But I reckon that if they didn’t have the financial resources they did, the Yankees would end up doing something similar to the Indians of the mid 90’s and tying some guys up and signing them up to rather cheaper extensions to take some years off their free agency.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 6, 2009 12:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But I reckon that if they didn’t have the financial resources they did

But they do have the resources and guys like Jeter, Posada and Rivera didn’t have to chase the money elsewhere. Trying to guess what the Yankees would do if they didn’t have a bottomless bucket of cash is kind of pointless IMHO.

by MDBuc on Nov 6, 2009 7:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It never does any good to speculate that “if so-and-so didn’t play there, and have their money, he’d leave.” Stating that they’d leave any team but the Yankees isn’t necessarily true (I’d bet that other big market teams could keep some of the 4, but not all). The whole exercise and even thinking about this topic is ultimately pointless though—all it does is lead to bitterness and despair among those who aren’t Yankees fans. And that just makes me angry about something that is probably not going to change in a long time.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 6, 2009 10:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the timeline:

The Yankees drafted Posada and signed Rivera in 1990, and drafted Jeter in 1992, yet all three were retained indefinitely by the Yankees.

Most of the dominant players from the mid-’90s Indians are done now, but the ones that are still active/productive are playing elsewhere, and have been for years:
*Jim Thome – Drafted in 1989, traded in 2002 as a pending FA.
*Manny Ramirez – Drafted in 1991, left as a FA in 2000.
*Omar Vizquel – Picked up in a minor trade in 1994, allowed to leave as a FA in 2004.

And so forth. The Indians were not, in the long run, able to keep anybody. Because they were not the Yankees, and did not have the unique structural advantages the Yankees enjoy.

by Vlad on Nov 6, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t say the Indians were able to keep people indefinitely; I merely used them as an example to show that if the Yankees were in a similar position as Cleveland, they probably would have tried to do the same thing. If they had Boston’s or Los Angeles’ resources, they probably would have been able to keep all 4.
Since we’re discussing this, I looked up clubs payrolls from recent years, to try and figure out when the last time the Yankees DIDN’T have the highest payroll. Any takers?

by NastyNate82 on Nov 7, 2009 7:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A nice take on the Yankees payroll that Pat linked to on WHYGAVS, from Joe Ponanski:
>http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2009/11/05/the-yankees-payroll/

by MDBuc on Nov 7, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Step 1:

Bury an Ortiz jersey in the foundation…

by Vlad on Nov 3, 2009 5:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some things to learn

Yeah, the Phil’s definently had a bit of luck with the draft, but that doesn’t mean the Buc’s can’t learn from them. They locked up there stars before they could become free agents. With Werth, they picked up a guy with high upside who was still cheap. They didn’t overpay for guys like Rowand. They properly valued defense with the Feliz signing. They traded away blocked prospects at or near their peak value.

by uneasy rider on Nov 3, 2009 2:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

I think the thing they need to do most of all is their “plan” has to be fluid. If they get a chance to lock up some young stars before they’re eligible, do it. Trade blocked prospects, especially if you have a bunch at one position, for some pitching. I’m not saying they should make moves just to make them, but being active is the way to go.

by NastyNate82 on Nov 3, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs


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