FOX Sports: Pirates, Brewers Discussed Ryan Doumit, J.J. Hardy
First things first: treat this with a grain of salt for now. The fact that the Post-Gazette reported that the Bucs offered Matt Capps for J.J. Hardy but didn't mention that the Pirates and Brewers also discussed a Ryan Doumit-for-Hardy swap makes this report from FOXSports.com seem a bit strange to me. Nonetheless, it's interesting:
It's becoming very clear that Ryan Doumit is available on the trade market.
The Pirates were engaged in talks with the Brewers earlier this offseason about a trade that would have sent Doumit to Milwaukee for shortstop J.J. Hardy, major league sources said Friday.
But Milwaukee preferred to use Hardy as the trade chip to acquire a starting center fielder, Carlos Gomez, from the Twins.
Hardy and Doumit have comparable contracts, which would have aided a deal.
The Brewers have a couple of decent catching prospects in Jon Lucroy and Angel Salome who are both fairly near the majors, but their current starter is Jason Kendall, who has nothing left offensively. Dealing for Doumit might have made some sense for them.
I'd certainly be open to trading Doumit if I were in charge, but it wouldn't be my top priority. Doumit had a dismal season overall in 2009 but hit very well in September after seemingly recovering from the wrist injury that probably dragged down his numbers before that. Dealing Doumit for Hardy would have been fine, but it would have been a lateral move--both are very talented players coming off poor seasons. Hardy might be the more talented of the two, and he's certainly the more likely of the two to stay healthy, but that's a double-edged sword--Hardy doesn't have an injury to explain why he hit so badly last year.
If the Pirates had traded Doumit for Hardy, they would have essentially been trading out Ronny Cedeno (who would move to the bench if Hardy became a Pirate) for Jason Jaramillo. Again, I think that's a lateral move--Cedeno and Jaramillo are both credible second-division starters and nothing more, and neither have a ton of upside. Actually, if I had to pick which of the two had the best chance to break out, I'd probably pick Cedeno, because of the power he flashed at times last year and because he, unlike Jaramillo, has a few lines on his stat sheet that suggest he can be somewhat better than a glove-first player. (There's also Jeff Clement, who's still trying to stick around as a catcher, but the idea that he can catch will be hard to take seriously until he actually does it for a month or so; given his knee problems, I think it's much more likely he sees time at the corners. If Doumit is traded and Clement can catch, great, but I frankly doubt that will happen.)
The Doumit-Hardy rumors are interesting, though, and they may be a blueprint for the sorts of Doumit rumors we hear the rest of the offseason. Doumit's 2009 season was bad enough that the Pirates probably aren't going to get much value for him if they pursue a standard veteran-for-prospects deal, but they could acquire a similarly talented but problematic player who isn't a catcher, so that Jaramillo can get some more playing time. An outfielder might be a possibility.
I think the more likely scenario, though, is for the Pirates to wait until after the season starts and hope Doumit shows he's healthy and productive, then deal him for younger players. That's essentially what they did with Jason Bay--there were rumors about Bay throughout the 2007-2008 offseason, but Bay had just had a terrible year, so the Pirates waited and dealt him after he hit well for a few months in 2008.
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Crossed my Mind
That maybethe Pirate’s are thinking about Jeff Clement in the catcher mix
by God Loves on Nov 13, 2009 9:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good point. I just added something about that.
by Charlie on Nov 13, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a question…when do they anticipate the arrival of Sanchez in the majors? Late 2011 callup, starter for 2012?
by NastyNate82 on Nov 13, 2009 10:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know what the Pirates think, but that sounds about right.
by Charlie on Nov 13, 2009 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doumit for Hardy could have made sense in that Hardy is an upgrade both defensively and offensively over Cedeno. Whereas Doumit is mainly an offensive upgrade.
I’m kind of surprised the Brewers didn’t do that one.
I would guess that Chase d’Arnaud and Tony Sanchez will arrive at about the same time to fill both positions. We’re probably looking at either mid season 2011 or 2012.
I seriously doubt either one will be a late season callup. This is only done with the second tier prospects. The first tier are too valuable to waste service time.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 14, 2009 3:47 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The New Pirates Situation
I am always amazed how in just over a year, NH has the team in a completely changed situation.
Before NH, we would not be able to have even thought about trading Doumit because:
1) He would be a backup player behind Paulino and hence work almost nothing.
2) We would have no one to replace him
Now we have a capable replacement in Jason Jaramillo. (at least defensively ). Plus we have a strong replacement about a year away.
Now if Doumit palys well, we can flip him for some more prospects w/o doing too much damage in the short term and no damage in the long term
NH has really changed the situation. Now let’s how his moves pay off in some wins!
by zogger on Nov 14, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just read...
an update on the Rosenthal blog that reported this rumor. Apparently we never offered Doumit…it was Capps. The Brewers wanted Maholm or Duke. Thus we have no trade.
by Slick1 on Nov 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t say they never offered Doumit, it says the Brewers didn’t want Doumit.
The Brewers did not want Pirates catcher Ryan Doumit for shortstop J.J. Hardy. They also did not want another player the Pirates suggested, right-handed reliever Matt Capps.
by ElDuce on Nov 14, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to say...
…that I probably would’ve moved Duke ahead of Doumit in a deal.
Of course, I’m still not convinced by Mr. Sanchez, which affects the calculation somewhat.
by Vlad on Nov 15, 2009 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh...
I would have done Maholm for Hardy in a heartbeat. That’s just me, though.
Honestly, why didn’t the Brewers move Hardy for Doumit? If healthy, Doumit is worth FAR more than Gomez, IMO. Also, the drop-off from Doumit to Kendall seems greater than that from Gomez to Cameron.
Hey, an out is an out - unless you're Mario, in which case it's probably two outs. -UtesFan89
by wg1of5 on Nov 16, 2009 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maholm's better than Duke
Doumit’s better than Gomez, but he’s also:
a) Much more expensive.
b) Under team control for less time.
c) Less helpful to the Brewers in particular, who have several catching prospects ready in the near term, and no real internal options for CF (since Lorenzo Cain broke down).
by Vlad on Nov 16, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doumit
If the Pirates are ready to trade Doumit, how does this jibe with NH’s position of trying to upgrade positions, which was his explanation for the Iwamura trade? If Doumit goes, who catches in 2010? I’m not a big Doumit fan, but I also don’t see a viable replacement at a key position in the immediate future.
by NY Jim on Nov 15, 2009 8:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, it's not like they're just shoving him into a bottomless pit.
Presumably, they think that the dropoff from Doumit to Jaramillo would be smaller than the upgrade we would’ve gotten from Cedeno to Hardy, making it a net gain for the team.
Are they correct in this? Maybe, maybe not. But it’s not an unreasonable strategy in the abstract.
by Vlad on Nov 16, 2009 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This might have prompted a deal
Prior to releasing a few of the players on the minor league level, do you think the Brewers might have said yes to a J.J. Hardy for Matt Capps, P Yoslan Herrera, P Tyler Herron, 1B Kent Sakamoto, IF Bobby Spain, LF Jason Delaney, 3b Eddie Prasch, and 3b Brett Willemburg? Or a J.J.Hardy for Matt Capps, Denny Bautista, Craig Hansen and Bootcheck? Knowing in hindsight that the Pirates would release a majority of those guys, might not have been bad trade bait. However, if a deal went through, it would have looked as if the Pirates severly overpaid for Hardy.
by formerdraftpick on Nov 17, 2009 8:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

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