Bucco Bashing
More fun stuff from everyone's favorite New York sportswriter, Bill Madden, claiming that his financial numbers he used concerning the Pirates back in August were, in fact, truthful. His chief ally in all of this: Scott Boras, who as we all know is about honesty first and foremost. I realize that regional sportswriters aren't necessarily the most well-informed folks when it comes to teams outside their region, but he seems to have some sort of serious vendetta with the Buccos, specifically the management team.
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Madden claims in his column that the Pirates made a $14M profit last year. If Nutting had decided to forego a profit and plow that $14M into the FA market instead, we could have expected another 3 wins – so the team would’ve had 65 wins instead of 62.
BFD.
by maguro on Nov 22, 2009 3:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually, his claim of a $14M profit kinda undermines the entire point of his column.
It’s funny, btw, that Madden trots out the usual challenge to open the books, but he himself doesn’t disclose the source of his numbers. So if Manfred’s figures are worthless, so are Madden’s.
by WTM on Nov 22, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I Have Bad News for Mr. Madden
Owners of baseball teams are allowed to make a profit. If they don’t make an annual return on their original investment (the cost of buying the team) that is comparable to what they could make in the financial markets (not the puppet theater that we see on TV), we will all be rooting for the Phoenix Pirates or the Silicon Valley Pirates or the Northern Virginia Pirates (or insert your favorite growth region).
Neither the Steinbrenners nor the Wilpon bro’s (Mets owners) run their clubs as charities for the benighted NYC masses. They – GASP! – are trying to make a profit. They have more to spend, not because the owners are generously (or like socialists) plowing every penny back into players, foregoing all profits. They just make more damn gol’ darned profits because they get money from parking lots, charge obscene amounts for each seat ($50-$75 for the nose-bleed seats), and have TV networks (YES and SNY) that are paying them additional, non-shared revenues. So any New York sports writer can just – no, I can’t even write that and cross it out – they can go pound sand up their fourth point of contact.
by Trogluddite on Nov 22, 2009 5:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It would actually be cheaper for me
to drive to P’burgh, spend time in a hotel, and watch three games at PNC than to buy the comparable seats at the new palace they built for the Yankees.
by Trogluddite on Nov 22, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…and wouldn’tcha wanna do that anyway?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 22, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to...
PNC is so beautiful. My son and I always eat at Manny’s grill and Manny signed my son’s glove twice – for a 10 or 11-year old, that is a wonderful moment. The city is beautiful, the ballpark is beautiful, and we were lucky enough to be there on great summer games which the Pirates were competitive in both times.
by Trogluddite on Nov 22, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PNC is a great park and even though the Pirates are terrible its fun to go to the game
it might become my Birthday present every year thats how much fun I have at the game
"From time to time gunfighters get shot."-Mike Tomlin the third greatest Steelers coach
by WVPiratesfan on Nov 22, 2009 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anyone who uses Boras.....
Anyone who uses or quotes anything from Scott Boras, as it relates to how baseball is or should be run; shoult be put in a rocket and fired into the sun. Bill Madden, meet your new partner in pending death, Jayson Stark.
"I choose to gamble with my life
Twice the risk, four times the prize
Nothing knocks me over"
by lighthouse913 on Nov 23, 2009 1:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
The Jayson Stark article was brutal
For any who haven’t read, here’s the link: “http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings091119” target=“new”
Two flaws that I find in the article:
1.) Where will the talent come from that will allow teams to spend to a salary floor?
In this system, there’s no guarantee that John Lackey will come to the Pirates or Royals for $20 million a year (fulfilling the salary tax minimum) because any other (more talented) team could offer the same amount or more. Each player has a certain value attached to their performance, and an economic system would just inflate the value of middle- to low-tier free agents, which would in-turn inflate the value of upper-tier free agents. (Though if Stark did run this across player agents—and the way the article was written suggests that he did—it’s no surprise the idea “has gotten great reviews.”)
2.) How could revenue possibly be shared in a way that is fair to teams paying the luxury tax and teams paying the threshold tax?
Having a luxury tax to help low-revenue teams can’t work if you’re also going to tax those teams for not spending enough money. The money from a salary minimum tax would just go to mid- to high-income teams who would either spend it on players (defeating the purpose of the luxury tax) or pocket the money (defeating the purpose of the salary minimum). At some point, low-income teams would start to lose money, and the system has no prescribed way of stopping that.
Having either a minimum salary tax OR a maximum salary tax might work, but using both at the same time wouldn’t really work. Personally, I like the concept of a system tied to league revenue with a hard salary floor and salary cap, combined with aggressive revenue sharing. Ideally, it would decrease the amount of money that could be “pocketed” by owners and keep player salaries within a reasonable amount of the league’s revenue. It also would help to keep an equal distribution of talent throughout the system.
by Kidspud on Nov 23, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It works great in the NHL having both a min and max.
by PensFan024 on Nov 24, 2009 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It works in the NFL as well
"From time to time gunfighters get shot."-Mike Tomlin the third greatest Steelers coach
by WVPiratesfan on Nov 24, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m in favor of the Pirates not being cheap on the major league roster, so a salary floor is good in theory to me. The major drawback, though is that if the Major League salary requirement is too steep, the Pirates will cut back on the draft and international talent. Minor league development is the priority now, and it can’t be cut back even if I’d like to see a quality FA or two.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 24, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another interesting article
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/tim_marchman/11/19/pirates.freeagency/index.html
This one, concerning possible ways the Bucs could improve for the coming year. Marchman has some interesting suggestions, but I was shocked to see (and I haven’t checked the numbers to see if this was a typo) his inclusion of Austin Kearns as a “defense-first” outfielder. Either way, a corner infield of Beltre-LaRoche as he suggests would certainly help out the pitching staff defensively.
by NastyNate82 on Nov 23, 2009 6:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ugh. Kearns is a good defensive outfielder, but UZR has Milledge as well above avg. in LF, too. Meanwhile, Kearns has zero upside as a hitter and Milledge still has a reasonable chance of breaking out. Same thing at short. Everett is declining pretty rapidly now on offense and defense, so there’s a realistic chance he’ll fail to meet his projections. Cedeno’s upside isn’t great, but at least there’s some there. If he doesn’t meet it, they can move on. Marchman’s basically following a formula designed to ensure the Pirates lose 90 games. So what if they “improve” if that’s the ceiling?
by WTM on Nov 23, 2009 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all of your points, WTM. I think he was trying to illustrate how small-market teams can improve without breaking the bank and torching their future. But the Pirates are the wrong team to use that line of reasoning, at least in their current state. Also not mentioned…someone like Beltre, who would be the best signing of those mentioned and is a vastly underrated player, comes with one problem: he’d probably warrent a multi-year deal and I reckon Alvarez will be ready before that contract would be up.
by NastyNate82 on Nov 23, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This sort of “improvement” is just a more sophisticated version of Littlefield’s management. His idea was that the team should aim to improve a little every year, which is why he preferred veteran stopgaps to prospects. I don’t want to go from 62 wins to 65 to 67 to 70, even if that was doable. I want to see them play guys who have some chance of being part of a winner, even if they also have a good chance of failing.
by WTM on Nov 23, 2009 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But what does it hurt? Ronny Cedeno isn’t a starting shortstop. Is he really part of the solution? I highly doubt it. There wouldn’t be much wrong with spending 2 million on Adam Everett for one year.
Same goes for Austin Kearns. He is due for a bounce back year, his peripherals are similar to his days in Cincy. Would he necessarily require a major league contract? The Pirates are too left handed in the RF/1B department. They have no way of taking advantage of any platoon situation.
These guys wouldn’t be blocking anyone significant.
by element on Nov 23, 2009 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It hurts because teams who are in situations similar to the Pirates often overpay for free agents to come here. And since they won’t win with the free agents they sign, they may as well play young guys to see what they got.
by NastyNate82 on Nov 23, 2009 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then don't overpay
Set a price ceiling, and don’t go over it.
Young guys are only good if they have the ability to progress and get better. There are a few Pirates players, mainly Cedeno and Moss, who are what they are.
by element on Nov 23, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Price Ceiling?
OK. My price ceiling for Everett is $99.99. For Kearns it’s $1.99. That way they both should be tradeable, barely, if they don’t work out.
by WTM on Nov 24, 2009 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So are you hostile to all free agents, or just these two in particular?
by element on Nov 24, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kearns hasn't been Kearns
Since that infamous collision that pretty much destroyed his power and potential.
by Slizeezyc on Nov 24, 2009 12:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My biggest beef with Marchman’s article was cutting of Thrilledge’s time in the outfield, because I think he made some strides last year. I’m not saying Lastings will be a superstar, but I think he can certainly be a useful regular. I’m hesitant to pull the plug on him, especially with his hand problems last year. I wouldn’t be as opposed to bringing in someone like Everett over Cedeno because I don’t think Ronny has much to offer…but other than his glove, neither does Everett. Articles like these are fun to read, but they really aren’t much use other than that.
by NastyNate82 on Nov 23, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Over the last 2 seasons Milledge has put up a higher WAR than Kearns. Barely higher, but still higher. The move doesn’t even make sense if they both continue to play at their current levels.
by ElDuce on Nov 23, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marchman's suggestions are ridiculous.
Marchman’s is probably the worst article I have ever read by someone trying to analyze how to make a team better. Nutting Hostage could do a better job.
First, he says the Pirates don’t have a 1B. Garret Jones appears to be an average fielding 1B. Second, if Andy were moved to 1B, he would no longer be a league average player because of the positional adjustment (although I expect him to hit better next year). Third, Andy was worth more as a 3B than Beltre in 2009 – with both offense and defense factored in.
Then, he goes into bizarro land by saying Milledge is being played because he “was at one time a prospect”, then he suggests replacing him with someone who had a lower UZR and WAR than Milledge did in 2009!
I mean, if the Pirates thought defense alone could win them games, wouldn’t they have just kept playing Nyjer, who was the best left fielder in MLB by many runs? Obviously they feel that Milledge is going to hit better than Nyjer in the long term and that’s why he’s playing.
If Andy’s at 1B, then Jones is in RF, correct? And Kearns hasn’t even played left field since 2002, and only has 13 games there his whole career. OK….
Anyway, its obviously ridiculous. A much better analysis of what the Pirates are really trying to do is found in a fangraphs post by Cameron.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/adding-value
The Pirates are trying to provide several decent options at each positions and play whoever is hotter or rising to the top.
If Ankiel is signed, then here’s what will happen…
Ankiel starts in RF, Jones at 1B. After several weeks, if one of Ankiel, Jones or Miledge isn’t contributing, Clement will come up and replace one of them. If Clement or another then struggles by June, Tabata will come up. If Andy or Aki isn’t doing well, then Alvarez will come up if ready.
We’ll see if the strategy pays off.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 24, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Pirates are trying to provide several decent options at each positions and play whoever is hotter or rising to the top.
Key point. They’re in a situation where they have to find premium players, but there aren’t any available to them who’ve already proven themseves as such. So they have to sort through guys to find the right ones. If they bring in a third-rate FA (not that guys like Everett and Kearns deserve to be called even third rate), they’ll be eliminating their flexibility at the FA’s position. Much like Randa and Sanchez, where they were only saved from their idiocy by Randa’s broken foot.
by WTM on Nov 24, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind the Pirates getting Beltre out of his suggestions, although, unlike the author, I don’t believe he’ll be cheap (he’s been connected to the Phillies and a bunch of other teams). Also, he might not be the best fit now that we have Iwamura and LaRoche, along with Alvarez soon to come. If we didn’t get AI, then Beltre at 3rd, LaRoche 2nd and Alvarez at 1st base wouldn’t have been bad.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 24, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are no quick fixes-
not even an extra $20-30 million in the free agent market would do it.
Let’s keep building a winning team mainly with the draft and player development.
by patthatt on Nov 23, 2009 7:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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