What About Depth?
Sorry for the absence of updates the past few days; it can be hard to post when there isn't much news coming out.
Anyway, there was some interesting discussion of the BA top prospects here, and the basic take-away criticism (particularly from Mike Emeigh, a smart long-time Pirates fan and critic) is that the Pirates' farm system still isn't that strong yet. If you look only at the ten-player list BA published, I think that's true, but I don't think a list of ten players tells the whole story.
Frank Coonelly and Neal Huntington have been on the job about two years, and thus have had two drafts to improve what was essentially a barren system. They've also fixated pretty intensely on high school talent after the first round in those drafts, at least in the guys to whom they've paid big bonuses. Lots of them have considerable upside, but given their age, understandably haven't done enough to make it into the top ten yet. And so any evaluation of the Pirates' system that doesn't take guys like Robbie Grossman, Quinton Miller, Jarek Cunningham, Colton Cain and Trent Stevenson into account just isn't really getting it done.
Then there's the fact that the Pirates traded away most of their starting players, and only three players acquired in those trades (Jose Tabata, Tim Alderson and Gorkys Hernandez) fit into BA's top ten--and even then, including Hernandez was probably a stretch. The problem was that besides Jason Bay, the Pirates didn't have anyone particularly good to trade. The Pirates' return for Bay was mediocre, which hurt, but it was counterbalanced by the fact that they got a very good prospect (Tabata), a good starting pitcher (Ross Ohlendorf) and another interesting player (Dan McCutchen) for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte. That trade was, it turns out, a steal for the Pirates.
Beyond that, the Pirates' problem has been that teams are increasingly unwilling to trade genuinely excellent prospects. It's a hard enough sell to get two great prospects when you're trying to trade Cliff Lee. When you're trying to trade Jack Wilson, it's pretty much impossible. As a result, a lot of the players the Bucs got in trades fit into the #11-#30 bracket. This includes Jeff Locke (from the Nate McLouth deal), Brett Lorin and Nathan Adcock (from Wilson and Ian Snell) and Josh Harrison (from John Grabow and Tom Gorzelanny).
All of which is to say that the Pirates have done pretty well with the options available to them, and given the obstacles they've encountered in getting obvious impact talents, they've done well in building a farm system that's 30 deep, not just ten deep. And there's really nothing wrong with most of the guys they've acquired, either in the draft or in trades, and it wouldn't be at all surprising if several from among Grossman, Miller, Cunningham, Cain, Stevenson, Locke, Lorin, Adcock, Brooks Pounders, Victor Black and Justin Wilson broke out and joined the top ten next year.
The top ten still does look a bit thin right now. But I'm not sure how Huntington and Coonelly could have acquired a bunch of talent much faster. Getting more for Bay would have been great, as would signing Miguel Sano. And reasonable people can disagree about the Pirates' strategy in the first round of the 2009 draft. Overall, though, I think their plan and execution have been quite good. And I think that if Dave Littlefield had done his job and left some interesting guys in A-ball who'd just now be graduating into the top ten themselves, there wouldn't seem to be a problem. Huntington and Coonelly have been placed in the awkward position of having to acquire lots of those sorts of players themselves and then wait for them to develop.
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Comments
Clemente was a tweener too.
We’ll see how Tabata develops, but I wouldn’t doubt his HR power will come in a couple of years as did Clemente’s. That’s no reason to keep him in AAA until it does though.
Thanks for the post, Charlie.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 25, 2009 10:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tabata seems to me like one of those “power will come” types, kind of like McCutchen was considered widely at this time last year. I’m not expecting Manny Ramirez from him at his peak, but 15-20 dingers might not be completely out of the question.
Like McCutchen, it’s only one aspect of his game, so I agree with you that there’s no reason for that to be what holds him back from Pittsburgh if the rest of his skills have developed enough.
by Suffering Buc on Nov 25, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you MarkInDallas
For putting Bob Smizik and his merry band of PBC idiots to their respective places. It really made them the fools that they are.
I throughly enjoyed you explaining the business side of things…..about how by MLB bylaws private-sector can’t release info. It really makes me understand that short of an overhaul the MLB disparity between big and small market teams will remain the same.
All the PBC Bloggers could do to counteract you point is call you names and intimidate with that “Kool-Aid” garbage.
Sorry Charlie, but I don’t have the abaility to DM him in this blog. SO I’d thought I’d tell him here.
Carry on
by BadAndy on Nov 25, 2009 11:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
If Kool-Aid makes you able to understand logical arguments, then I’m all for it. Yummy Kool-Aid. Delicious.
Smizik has really pissed me off with that latest piece. Just bizarrely uninformed and unintelligent.
I’m going to paint my face with Kool-Aid war paint.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 26, 2009 8:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As opposed...
To all the sane, informed, intelligent things Smizik usually says?
by Slizeezyc on Nov 26, 2009 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hahahaha.
Like the Smizik who wrote this stuff:
Keep Nady, Gamble with Pitching
Patience not always a Virtue
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 27, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When I think of Bob Smizik...
I think of those two articles the most.
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 29, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, that's crazy.
The one I especially liked from this year was than Sano wasn’t worth the money, but the Pirates should get him anyway as a PR move.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 27, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
In a previous blog entry he wrote:
But to spend $4 million on a 16-year-old kid, well, that sounds like something the Pirates of Dave Littlefield would do.
Ha! Show me the Dominican power hitting prospect that DL signed for a couple million. Oh, right, there isn’t one!
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 29, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And....
It’s not like Neal signed one either. But at least the Pirates were in contention for one, which is something we never saw with DL.
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 29, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he meant
$16 million on a 40 year old kid.
by MarkInDallas on Nov 30, 2009 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Smizik is pretty good...
…but he’ll never top Ron Cook.
by Vlad on Nov 30, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh man.
It’s nice to think Randall Simon will become famous for something more than being called a “fat monkey” by bigot John Rocker.
He had no idea…
by IAPiratesFan on Nov 30, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
They didn’t drink Kool-Aid at the People’s Temple, they drank Flavor Aid mixed with cyanide. Says so right there in Wiki. As usual, PBC bloggers don’t know what they’re talking about.
So “drinking the Kool-Aid” simply means you are refreshing yourself with a cherry or orange or grape flavored beverage. Not MY beverage of choice but … Skoal!
by bucdaddy on Nov 26, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Flavor Aid bad, Kool-Aid good.
Yum yum!
by MarkInDallas on Nov 26, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OH YEEEAAAHHH!

…
_
…
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WARNING! Unrelated Side Note re: Peoples Temple...
After Jonestown, The Peoples Temple Sect eventually vacated the Geary St. temple in San Francisco, and it was briefly converted into a venue called The Temple Beautiful (it had originally been the Albert Pike Memorial Scottish Rite temple, and was a beautiful building!) that hosted various music shows, mostly punk acts.
It was there in 1979 I saw Black Flag (either Keith Morris or Ron Reyes was still the lead singer, – can’t really remember for sure – [pre-Dez Cadena or Henry Rollins]), Roy Loney & the Phantom Movers (ex-Flamin’ Groovies) and a S.F. – based band called Eye Protection that performed with a horn section (better than The Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo) that opened up on the alcove above the stage doing in irreverent version of “Deustchland Über Alles” on tuba, trumpet and trombone, before retreating to the stage for some rock/ska/jazz that knocked my socks off. Unfortunately, I cannot find anything about that band, anywhere… Helluva show.
Sorry to have hijacked the thread
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 27, 2009 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could have seen Black Flag…though I prefer Cedena and Rollins to Reyes. Morris was solid too, though.
http://fanhuddle.com/pittsburghpirates
by Nate Rose on Nov 27, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
According to my research...
…this guy was the lead singer for Eye Protection. If you liked them, maybe you’d enjoy his solo stuff, too. He also sang with Wall of Voodoo for a while.
Looks like they put out one 7’’ through Aleph Records, the info for which is here.
by Vlad on Nov 30, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy Crap!
Andy Prieboy! I should’ve known something like that! His “White Boy Wins Lotto” was a fixture at Cafe Largo in L.A. for a couple of years, though I never got to see it. Didn’t care as much for his work with WOV, but that’s a personal preference.
Thanks, Vlad!
Now I’ve gotta get the “Elroy” 7". Grrrrr.
(Interesting that the horn section is not listed as members on the track – wonder if they were just supplemental for the gig…?)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Nov 30, 2009 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Depth
Excellent insight as always Charlie.
I would add that when evaluating the performance of Coonelly and Huntington it is not really fair to look at the farm system as a whole since as you state Littlefield left little to work with when they arrived. So, most of the talent has come from the past two drafts and trades which, because of lack of leverage brought back mostly young unproven players (generally, with little upside). When you look at the lower levels of the system, or say the amount of talent that is 23 years old and younger, there appears to be great depth. From catcher (Sanchez), to infielders (Alvarez, D’arnaud, Cunningham, Mercer) and outfielders (Freeman, Marte, Lattimore) Also, if some of the prep arms taken in 2009 pan out the organization would have to be considered strong.
by kjcity520 on Nov 25, 2009 11:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Never underestimate the unrealistic expectations of the yinzers
“We’ve had 17 straight years of losing – What? After they sold all our great players for prospects we only when from the worst farm system to league average? Grab the torches! We’re gonna sack these guys for not bringing us a championship yet!”
by MarkInDallas on Nov 26, 2009 8:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not above average now, but it takes at least 4 or probably 5 years for management to “own” the entire success or failure of the minor league acquisitions and development system.
by Adam Reynolds on Nov 26, 2009 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I've never noticed before...
LittleField – How apt; what were they thinking hiring a guy with a name like that??
(horrible pun FTW!) :p
by BlindSquirrel on Nov 26, 2009 7:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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