Pirates looking at Kelly Johnson
by Vlad on Dec 15, 2009 11:41 AM EST
70 comments
Earlier today we learned that the Diamondbacks have interest in free agent second baseman Kelly Johnson , and now we're able to add three more clubs to the list of suitors. MLBTR learned from an industry source that the Pirates, Cardinals, and Astros have interest in Johnson. - Tim Dierkes, MLBTR
MLBTR isn't 100% reliable, but the possibility is interesting enough that I think it's worth discussing anyway.
Johnson would've been easier to fit onto the roster before the Iwamura pickup, but even now, he'd be a smart addition at the right price. He's a career .264/.346/.430 hitter who can play second, third, or corner outfield, and he'd immediately become the best player on our bench. Even better, as a 28-year-old, he's young enough that he could plausibly be a future building block if he acquits himself well in 2010. He struggled in 2009, but the main source of those struggles appears to have been a large drop in his BABIP relative to career norms (.313 career, .249 in 2009), making him a likely bet to rebound. His 2010 CHONE forecast is a .262/.338/.428 line.
If Johnson were to sign, the players most likely to be threatened by his presence on the roster would seem to be Vazquez and Young. I could certainly live with an upgrade on either of those two.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Yeah I saw that last night...
and our interest kind of surpirsed me. I’m a proponent of giving DY and Vasquez the boot right now so if this acquisition does the trick I’m all for it. I would think we’d have a pretty realistic shot if being a starter is important to him. We could offer the “opportunity” to start much like we did with Crosby. Iwamura could flop, get hurt, or any number of things that would force Johnson into the linep.
I could see Johnson as a plausible starter...
…at 2B (if Iwamura gets hurt), 3B (if LaRoche regresses), or RF (if Clement can’t handle 1B and we need Jones there).
Even if he doesn’t start, I bet he’d get 400 PAs as the primary bench bat, given his versatility.
Well, me neither.
But I like having a backup plan in place, just in case it does. Pedro could use some more time at AAA, and while I don’t anticipate anything going wrong with LaRoche, there’s always the chance that a guy will get hit by a bus (real or metaphorical).
(Yeah, I goofed.)
I was thinking “more upper minors experience”, and then I got distracted by something shiny in the middle of writing it down.
I'd like to see this signing.
Could it be that Vazquez’s leg problems are worse than reported and the club doesn’t think he’ll be able to produce at all again in 2010?
Maybe they think they have no choice to eat the salary. Jus’ wonderin’….
This signing
would give us quite a bit of versatility among the IFs with Cedeno, Crosby, Iwamura, and Johnson.
And we already know the team expects LaRoche, Clement, Jones, and later Alvarez to fill in the corner spots.
I’d be a lot happier if guys like Vazquez, Young, and Pearce didn’t fit into the equation barring injuries to the aforementioned 8 players.
Vazquez?
I’m through with this team. Through!
(Somebody had to.)
RV
Getting rid of DY and RV certainly is part of the steps necessary to become respectable.
But I assume the Pirates’ interest is similar to most of the interest in Matt Capps, meaning they called his agent.
Interest in players
MLB Trade Rumors: The number of teams interested in Alfredo Amezaga is “well into double digits,” according to the utility man’s agent (MLB.com’s Joe Frisaro reporting).
Could he be even more sought after than Matt Capps? Can a team afford to take on both of them?
I like it.
Added bonus is that it might eliminate both Vazquez and DYoung from the roster, since they’d probably want to have Pearce or Walker as a RH PH option off the bench (not to mention semi-platoon partner for Jones/Clement/Moss). I’d love it if Johnson instead of Vazquez/Young got 400 PA off the bench.
Dejan said on his blog that Gayo went because it was in Houston and he lives there.
The only real players in this are the Yankees and Red Sox, by most accounts.
LA Dodgers
it was reported, did not attend because they are cash strapped.
For all of you who are not married – make sure you’ve got the right one. For are that are – I hope you did get the right one.
Divorce is a nasty thing, and all too common in our society.
Maybe the upset of the year, but I got a feeling the Bucs may have a 1% chance.
Awful lot of comments about your wife lately...
Is this an outcry for help?
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Dec 15, 2009 8:42 PM EST up reply actions
No
Have a wonderful wife and like to bring her into all areas of my life, Love her greatly and don’t deserve someone as good as her. Prior life experience, however, teaches one valuable lessons.
Couldn’t be more blessed…
I'm glad to hear that.
I too have been through a nasty divorce. It sucked at the time but brought me to my lovely wife. Good to hear all is well.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Dec 16, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Could be that they're just trying to soft-pedal their interest.
If so, that’s fine by me. The latest money line on Chapman is under $20M, which almost makes him feasible for us, if he looks good enough.
Not sure how good he looked overall...
but apparently his fastball sat b/w 92-93 and topped out at 96.
K. Johnson sounds good to me. He’d be likely to come here if he isn’t offered a starting role because of the opportunity for sure.
HOU can't offer him a starting gig.
STL could offer him a corner OF slot if they lose Holliday, or a 3B slot if they like him there more than Frese. I’d have to think they’d wait on an offer until Holliday makes up his mind, though.
AZ is the real threat to us. They have an open IF spot now, with Lopez gone.
Bal
has an opening at 3B as well and B. Roberts is an annual trade rumor. They are looking for an option at 3B while Josh Bell develops in AAA
That's true...
…but I didn’t address them becuase they weren’t name-checked as a contender in the posted link.
Arangure had a couple notes on the Pirates on his Twitter page as well. Said not to forget they were very close to signing Dayan Viciedo last year. He seems to think they have a legitimate interest beyond just checking him out, but would still be surprised if they were to make the high bid.
Didn't Know That
about Viciedo.
Concerning Chapman, find it interesting that Gayo (even if he lives there) would be the one to watch. No doubt he could develop instant rapport with him (if he hasn’t already).
Johnson
Thinking about it more, I wouldn’t be upset if the Pirates offered him multiple years as an additional enticement. I’d be cool with 2/8 plus an option/buyout for a third. I don’t know if Johnson’s looking exclusively for one-year deals to try to rebuild his value, but maybe he’d like the guaranteed cash now. I can’t see a reason why he wouldn’t be worth a contract like that. As Vlad mentioned, 2009 seems to be a BAbip fluke and he’ll only be 28 this year.
I really like the idea of bringing in kelly johnson… in a straight-up comparison with iwamura, johnson is three years younger and in two of the last three seasons, he’s posted a significantly better OPS+ than iwamura… none of this is to dog aki, but rather to say that johnson has the potential to bounce back and be a good second baseman for maybe as much as five years… if I were the pirates, I wouldn’t worry about how you fit johnson into your existing roster, I’d figure out how you accommodate the rest of the infielders once you bring him in…
by Captain Easychord on Dec 15, 2009 6:55 PM EST reply actions
“…if I were the pirates [sic], I wouldn’t worry about how you fit johnson into your existing roster, …”
Must. Not. Make. “How You Fit Johnson Into Roster.” Joke.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
How Could We?
We were told Vazquez was a building block for the future? We’re trading away our young future stars, just to save a few bucks. And wouldn’t signing Johnson block Bixler? Why would we want to do that????
Admit it, Trogs,
…you’re done with this team, aren’t you?
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 15, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
id def like it
i would hope if it came down to it though, that they would cut vasquez instead of delwyn
lovers salavate. broken hearts tesselate tonight.
What? Cut Vasquez and not even get anything for this valuable asset?
by MarkInDallas on Dec 15, 2009 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
I can't follow all this
I’m still trying to figure out how you can complain about trading Eric Hinske being a salary dump and then complain about them wasting money on Iwamura.
I can't figure it out either
But all I know is Huntington is in over his head and Nutting’s found a way to pocket all the money!
by MarkInDallas on Dec 16, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
MarkInDallas
You are spending too much time talking to NuHo, I know as I have read through far too many of those blogs recently and just like Python’s Mr Gumby “My brain hurts!!”
I tried posting there for a day or so last week.
The signal-to-noise ratio is really low. And any time a reasonable discussion actually gets started, they move on to the next thread and abandon it.
...and the P-G site itself
is the sloooooowest loading site in the World.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 16, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
They also need to implement an easy comment system like Bucs Dugout. In fact, almost every website should.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
When DK held his “what can we do to make the PG web experience better” post a week ago or so I said the same thing and linked back to here as an example of how much easier it is to have mulitiple discussions in the same thread.
I don’t go to many other blog sites but SBNation seems to be the only one that does have kind of comment section.
It's a really nice platform.
Sometimes difficult to load long threads from a moblile device, but other than that it’s just about perfect.
It must be too expensive for most websites to set up a platform like this, because a lot of these features like automatically loading comments without hitting refresh every 30 seconds are no-brainers.
But the comments section at PBC is especially bad, because it takes 5 minutes to post a comment and the loading is terrible in general. It helps discourage me from posting there as much even before considering the insane community. I get that newspapers aren’t raking in the dough, but there must be some other way.
by Adam Reynolds on Dec 16, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
I have been a vocal complainer about their platform and server
I even changed my screen name to PGServerHostage for a while.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 16, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
I have resolved to spend less time there and more here.
It’s nice to be able to not only post things and have people consider them but I some here have posted things that have either altered my view or led me down roads to research something I hadn’t thought of.
I do hope that I’ve raised the level of discourse on the PG board a tiny bit. It seems there are more people now over there that accept that the sports world doesn’t work in a way where you can snap your fingers and magically produce a $100M payroll.
by MarkInDallas on Dec 16, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
I've never read a PG board other than by accident
when Charlie very infrequently links something from there during the season.
His situation is similiar to Capps
He made slightly more in ‘09 but was nontendered and the Braves tried to trade him. You’d think the two teams could have hooked up. Doubtful the Pirates do anything more than kick the tires. If they were serious about him, they could have already had him plus saved the P.R. outburst associated with Capps. Also, where’s all the optimism springing from that Vazquez bites the dust along with the Pirates chucking $2MM out the door with him.
I haven't seen any indication...
…that the Braves are among the teams interested in Capps. I guess in theory they could’ve found a third team that liked Capps and had a non-tender candidate that the Braves liked. Seems pretty complicated, though.
At this point, they’re paying Vazquez $2M whether they keep him or not. The money’s spent – they “chucked it out the door” when they signed him in the first place. If they can improve at the position, they should do so as long as the cost of the improvement itself is less than the benefit from the upgrade.
Didn't the Braves
just swing a deal to get rid of excess reliefage?
Pretty much, yeah.
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on that one, though, since I guess it’s notionally possible that the Braves might have been interested in Capps before they signed Wagner and Saito (and Soriano, accidentally).
Interesting post on the PG Blog.
DK confirms our interest in Johnson but says we like him as an OF. If that’s the case it would most likely means that Moss would be cut over Vazquez because I don’t see us going with 3 OFs. I suppose it’s possible that DY could get cut but I doubt it given his position flexibility and Moss’ lack of performance at the plate to date. Plus I think NH would like to try and keep Raynor.
Doesn't the fact
that Johnsons versatility overlaps and exceeds DY’s (COF, 2B, 3B > COF, 2B) that DY would be the one to go? I think this move would signal the end of Vasquez AND DY with Moss v Raynor in ST for the last spot.
OF Milledge Cutch Jones Raynor(can moss play cf?) Johnson
C JJ Doumit
IF Andy, Cedeno, Crosby, Aki, Pearce, Clement.
Does that look right?
I guess Pearce or Clement could also be left off, with 1 of Ramon, DY, or Moss taking the extra spot.
And at midseason
Tabata moves to RF and 1 of Pearce/Clement/Jones is traded or released.
If Pedro is ready and
A) Andy is performing well
1) Aki is traded and Andy moves to 2B
2) Andy is traded
B) Andy isn’t performing well
1) Andy is benched
2) Andy is traded
If you count Young as being able to play 2B...
…then he could probably handle 3B with an approximately equal level of skill.
Which is kind of the definition of “damning with faint praise”, right there.
I'm on the fence
A few days ago, I posted on how it would make sense to find a RH platoon partner to play RF with Jones, and then I heard about this. Immediately I thought, “Great another LH bat that doesn’t have a definite position.”
Then I looked up his splits and saw that he hit’s much better against lefties than righties. But i noticed that his BB/K rate was better against RH as opposed to LH, so I thought sample size or luck…
Against RH, 1378 PA, 159/252 (.63) BB/SO, 289 BABIP, 97 OPS+
Against LH, 524 PA, 44/107 (.41) BB/SO, 368 BABIP, 108 OPS+
An 80 point difference in BABIP! Pretty wild. Can someone be that much luckier against a certain type of pitcher (524 PA is not a huge sample size, but it is about a years worth of data) or does he square the ball up just that much better against LH. There’s no split data for balls in play (that I know of) so it’s really perplexing. Maybe I’m missing something here, but either way, he is exactly the type of player I was talking about before, especially if he is capable in RF, and it doesn’t hurt that he can play multiple positions as well.
And needless to say, we cut RV if he is signed.
AZ
The DBacks have reportedly offered Johnson a 1 year deal at 2 mill. I guess we’ll know soon how serious the Pirates are.
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