Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Along The Olentangy for Ohio State Fans!

Jeff Clement Penciled in at First

The Post-Gazette has an interesting item about Jeff Clement and the first base job. The Pirates seem not to mind that some of their top targets for extra corner players (Xavier Nady and Rick Ankiel in particular) are unlikely to sign until late in the offseason. This means they're probably relatively happy with the players currently at the top of their depth chart (Clement at first, and Garrett Jones in right) and want an extra guy mainly to provide competition and to guard against a flameout by Clement or someone else. 

This seems sensible. As a fourth-outfielder / insurance policy, Nady is actually fairly interesting to me, since he's right-handed. But Ankiel is a lefty like Clement. And it's not really clear that Nady or Ankiel are better than Clement right now anyway. ZiPS, for example, predicts Clement will have an .801 OPS next year. (Incidentally, it also predicts Matt Capps will have the lowest ERA on the staff. Oops.) Nady is at .780. I don't think a ZiPS projection for Ankiel has been published yet, but Bill James has him at .763. 

Now, both Nady and Ankiel would be doing the Pirates a service by keeping Jones out of the outfield, so they provide more defensive value than Clement probably would. And certainly projections can turn out to be wrong, particularly with injury magnets like these three guys, etc. etc. etc. (Don't think you're being original by pointing that out, either.) The point, though, is that if the Bucs have resigned themselves to second- or third-tier free agents like Nady and Ankiel (as is probably appropriate at this point), they're right to not feel much urgency about this. Clement might well end up being better than the available options anyway, and if things get bad, there's also Steve Pearce, Delwyn Young and Brandon Moss--and possibly Jose Tabata and Pedro Alvarez--to fall back on. An additional benefit of starting Clement is that the Pirates can control his rights for several years if he succeeds, and since Tabata and Alvarez could begin to complicate things staring in about July, it behooves the Bucs to see what they have in Clement.

The best reason for the Pirates to sign a free agent outfielder or first baseman is not to replace someone currently penciled into the starting lineup, but to guard against a complete failure, and I don't just mean by Clement. Not to take a shot at someone who thoroughly proved me wrong throughout 2009, but last season Jones played like he knew how to fly. Maybe he really can fly, but given his lengthy and undistinguished history, the Pirates also have to consider the possibility that instead of flying his legs were just moving really fast for a few seconds, like Wile E. Coyote running off a cliff. Clement, Jones and Lastings Milledge should all be in the starting lineup, but if possible there should be legitimate fallback options too.

0 recs  |  Comment 53 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Charlie = Smart

Not being sarcastic here, just wanted to compliment you on succinctly stating what most of the regulars here have felt since late last summer – we’ve got to see what we have in the young, intriguin guys that have already sucked what value was to be had out of the minor leagues (Clement, Milledge, Jones).

On a largely unrelated topic, I just want to state for the record that I think DY’s bat is a bit undervalued by the faculty here. I think he can be a worthwhile bench player.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Dec 17, 2009 8:28 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed on DY.....

He had a terrible September, but the guy apparently worked his butt off to try to learn to play second. Now he can play that, at a serviceable level on occasion if necessary, and left or right and is a decent pinch hitting option off the bench. The guy was an excellent pickup last year, as we got him for nothing, basically. It was like getting an extra Rule 5 pick, but better.

Throw in the facts that he turns 28 in June, makes approx. $425K and isn’t arb eligible for two more years and I don’t any rush to kick him to the curb.

by dtoddwin on Dec 17, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Can DY also back up 3B?

When he was first acquired NH talked about working him out at 3B. Will be interested to see if they go back to that plan in ST. i think he has a strong enough arm for 3B? If he could serve as low cost, effective PH, backup for 4-5 positions for next few years he is definitely worth keeping.

by EdOtt on Dec 17, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Also agree on DY

At the end of the season he just seemed to be tired. I think he was working overtime on the defense and that just exhausted him both mentally and physically. I look for a bounce back in his bat.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

His season line for 2009...

…was right in line with his past minor league performances. I think he just happened to be hot for a while, and then cold for a while. But in total, he’s good for a .700-ish OPS, like the one he put up.

by Vlad on Dec 17, 2009 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree with that.

I really don’t by the tired argument. I believe DK threw that out there at one point IIRC but let’s face it, Young was working on fielding grounballs, it wasn’t like he was running wind sprints before every game.

by Slick1 on Dec 17, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Perrotto

Said he would come in each day drenched in sweat from working out there for like hours before the game.

Not that I’m making a case for Delwyn, I think he’s been a bit overrated as a pinch hitter in general and would not blink if he was dropped for Kelly Johnson or something.

by Slizeezyc on Dec 17, 2009 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

To be blunt...

…Delwyn looks like the kind of guy who’d get drenched in sweat going up two flights of stairs.

by Vlad on Dec 18, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh

Unless that was sarcasm, you have never fielded ground balls in any meaningful way.

by azibuck on Dec 18, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions  

It wasn't sarcasm...

I played ball through college, though admittedly I was an OF. I came in a couple hours early one month while making the transition from LF to CF so I could work on my routes. For an hour my coach it would hit balls into the gap, I’d work on throwning to the bases and run a couple of other drills to improve my quickness. Then I’d finish with some BP. I’d work up a sweat too but I’d rest before the game and I don’t ever remember feeling fatigued during the games, and we played a lot of double headers. Exactly what do you IF’s do to wear you out so much?

by Slick1 on Dec 18, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

College v. your profession

Huge difference. I wasn’t an IF, but when I was 18-22 years old I had energy for all kinds of things too.

But I don’t want to make the tired argument for DY. Infielding and outfielding involve different movements, but I’m not going to argue any points on that. I just thought your comment dismissing fielding grounders was naive. I assumed “fielding grounders” to be a serious practice in the context of DY playing 2B, not just going through the motions of picking up balls that are hit directly to a fielder.

by azibuck on Dec 18, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Clement

I know that these are ifs, but if Clement can show his power, if Jones can be somewhat like he was last season and Doumit stay somewhat healthy, we’ve got a decent offense.
I’d love to add Kelly Johnson to this jumble to spell at 2b, 3b and in the OF.
I don’t hate this

Cutch
Iwamura
Doumit
Jones
Clement
Milledge
Laroche the Younger
Cedeno/Crosby

by Tintin049 on Dec 17, 2009 8:32 AM EST reply actions  

Laroche the Younger?

Do we really need to keep pointing out that we’re talking about Andy and not Adam anymore? I mean, Andy is with the Pirates and Adam is not. I think if you just put in LaRoche that we’d know that you’re talking about Andy.

by IAPiratesFan on Dec 17, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Or, for that matter, LaRoche.

http://fanhuddle.com/pittsburghpirates

by Nate Rose on Dec 17, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

… and Huntingdon, Coonelly, Nyger, etc….

Free your ass and your mind will follow.

by cocktailsfor2 on Dec 17, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you for posting that name.

I will be copying and pasting it from this thread anytime I need to refer to him!

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Dec 17, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see Doumit hitting 3rd. Jones 3rd and Doumit 4th would seem to be a better order.

And just because management says that 1B is Clement’s job to lose, that doesn’t mean they won’t bring in someone like Nady or Ankiel who would take it from him if he does not show he is ready during spring training. I do, however, think it makes sense to find out if Clement can be “the guy” before Jose Tabata and/or Pedro Alavarez are ready.

That’s really what this year should be about, finding out which of the major league guys should keep thier jobs and which of our top prospects are ready to contribute on the major league level. Then spend next offseason filling in the holes with free agents.

by Brakeman8 on Dec 17, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I would venture.....

that Clement could go 0-for spring training and he will still be the starting first baseman on opening day. Spring training is useful maybe to see if Raynor is better than Moss, but it isn’t the place to decide if Clement should be playing first. He’s going be playing first until July 1 and then we’ll see where we are. Just as Jones killed it early in the summer, they then had to use Aug and Sept to see how “real” he was. Clement’s shot is coming now and IMO that’s how it should be.

by dtoddwin on Dec 17, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

This is part of why I’m not so interested in Nady/Ankiel – we need both Clement and Jones to prove what they are.

by JRoth95 on Dec 17, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Pitching, Pitching, Pitching

Starters, relievers, maybe a closer or two. There’s talented hitting on the way. But, aside from Lincoln, there won’t be much new internal pitching.

Viva Clemente!

by Roberto on Dec 17, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree

As you all know, I’ve been very down on this lineup, but I really like the Iwamura pickup, and I don’t have to squint too hard to see any of the other guys (save SS) perform acceptably. Honestly, if Jones and Clement both have good years (and Doumit stays healthy), that looks like a legit MLB lineup. My biggest concern is that it’s full of holes defensively, and I feel like it’s too much to ask that these guys perform at the plate while improving in the field.

by JRoth95 on Dec 17, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Clement is going to have to outperform Jones unless Tabata really tanks.

Assuming Jones is around -10 runs in RF and Tabata is +10 runs, for Clement/Jones to be better than Tabata/Jones, Clement would have to hit about +35 wOBA better than Tabata for the combined offense of Jones/Clement to offset their defensive liabilities.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I would say he’s about average. I’ll go with that until UZR starts to show otherwise.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe

Tabata/Clement(e) instead of Tabata/Jones

oops!

by God Loves on Dec 17, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

For all of Jones' athleticism

He does not pass the eye test in the OF or 1B. In the OF he’s like a fish flopping around on land, but he’s never seemed to be impressive at 1B either. I’ll trust the eyes over a small amount of UZR data at the MLB level for now.

by Slizeezyc on Dec 17, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

My eyes say below average for Jones at 1B, but not by much.

by Adam Reynolds on Dec 17, 2009 8:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I would agree with this.

I don’t think he’s as bad at 1B as he is in RF. His hands are less deficient than his reads/routes on fly balls.

by Vlad on Dec 18, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Why would you assume Tabata is +10? Just curious—I haven’t heard any superlatives about his defense. +10 is pretty darn good.

by Charlie on Dec 17, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, I think he could be anywhere from 0 – +10. He’s been a CF, so he must have pretty decent range, although no one thinks he should be playing CF in MLB. Brandon Moss was a +10 this year, and it’s my guess that he will be some where between average and more likely toward Brandon Moss territory.

I also consider that on the whole, there are a heck of a lot of bad right fielders in the league as regulars. Most of the positive UZR RFs are defensive replacements or young players whose knees haven’t started creaking yet.

There were only 6 qualified RFs in the league with positive UZRs. Essentially, that means it’s much more likely for a young player who is an athletic type like Tabata to be a plus defender.

However, even if he’s +5 or close to even, my comparison for the sake of how well Clement must hit to stick is likely valid, because I haven’t even factored in the fact that we all believe Clement is likely to be a minus 1B defensively.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Right on, Charlie

I think your analysis of what the Pirates have is right, and I agree that the strategy they seem to be pursuing is the right one; in particular, I really like Kelly as an option – a much better buy-low prospect than Ankiel, imo.

BTW, I thought people were pretty down on Nady as a RF. Is he better than I thought, or is Jones that bad that Nady’d be a sizable upgrade?

by JRoth95 on Dec 17, 2009 11:44 AM EST reply actions  

Well if you're talking about defense...

than Nady isn’t better than you thought, he’s just an upgrade over Jones. Nady has a career UZR/150 of -2.1 in RF in over 3000 innings. Jones is a -8.4 in RF for the Bucs last year in over 343 innings. By those standards Jones is pretty bad and that has been his reputation throughout his career. However, those innings with the Pirates represent the majority of his innings in the OF. Given his athleticism I think there is an opportunity that he can improve some if he remains there for a full season. Being that both players seem to be trending in different directions offensively I’d rather see Jones play over Nady.

by Slick1 on Dec 17, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually

That is a bit better than I thought for Nady: -2 runs over a season is basically a rounding error away from perfectly average. I didn’t think he was awful, but I was under the impression (from comments here, not from watching) that he was distinctly subpar.

But yes, I’d rather see Jones out there regardless. I do think that he should be able to manage at least tolerable capability, esp. in PNC’s small RF.

by JRoth95 on Dec 17, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Plus/minus actually had Jones as slightly above average in RF last year. I’d say that’s a small sample issue, but it’s possible that he’s not quite as bad as some/many of us think.

Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco

by MBandi on Dec 17, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I trust UZR a lot more than +/-, especially when it confirms what my eyes see.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions  

If I'm not mistaken...

I believe that Jones is also a major upgrade over Clement, should his bat flame out

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Dec 17, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

An upgrade, anyway; not sure that I’d say “major” (although we’ve yet to see just how bad Clement is at 1B).

by JRoth95 on Dec 17, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I havent seen anything on him, I’m basing my assumption on the bad knees. Of course, I maybe totally wrong, maybe Clement is the best defensive first baseman since Bill Buckner. Oh wait…

The glare of the spotlight is harsh, and the pressure that success breeds immense. We revere our heroes, but expect much. And criticism can come as easily as praise.

by glass0941 on Dec 17, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

We sure are expecting a lot out of Jones and Clement

next season. I’d like to see Xavier Nady in the mix, too.

by patthatt on Dec 17, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions  

Would Nady or someone like that come when there is the expectation that they might not start? Seems like Kelly Johnson is the more likely contender for that reason.

by MarkInDallas on Dec 17, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Xavier Nady? No thanks. I like the versatility of someone like Kelly Johnson, though.

by Adam Reynolds on Dec 17, 2009 8:14 PM EST reply actions  

No Way Nady Signs with the Bucs!

Nady has too much value as a backup on contenting clubs for him to sign with us. The Yankees, Boston, Mets, etc would sign him for 3 years just to be backup and DH (in the junior circiut that is!).

So I’d like him as a backup on our club, he ain’t comin’ here.

by zogger on Dec 17, 2009 8:17 PM EST reply actions  

Do even contending teams pay out 3 years for a backup?

by Adam Reynolds on Dec 17, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Yankees Might

The rich guys do all sorts of stuff like this. Maybe not for 3 years guaranteed but the last year an option year would work for them.

by zogger on Dec 17, 2009 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Three years for Nady?

If we’re going to pay that, you may as well just strike me dead right now.

by Vlad on Dec 18, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Another thought

Maybe we are looking to add an OF because Tabata is only 21 and they plan to keep him at AAA the entire season to let that power develop some more. Same thing for Pedro is also possible. What if Andy breaks out and they decide they want to move Pedro to 1B around June, giving him the rest of the year to learn that position. Options are always good to have.

by Mr. E on Dec 18, 2009 8:06 PM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Carnac-ing the Pirates
Small
Fire John Russell
Small
Can the Pirates Afford to Win?
Small
I Am Not A Financial Journalist, But...
Small
The Bottom

Recent FanPosts

Mendenhall_small
Well, that was fun. (Nats-Bucs, 9/3/10)
Small
Solution at first base?
Aaugh_small
Just to give you an idea
Conquer_the_flag_small
2011: Altoona and Indy
Mendenhall_small
Community Prospect #8
Small
Perception v. reality
Small
Cutch or Tabata?
Small
The 1b/RF 2011 Mix
Pitt_gnome_small
What JR's missing
Small
Minor League Open Thread

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Colorado Rockies' Carlos Gonzalez, left, and Ubaldo Jimenez, right, celebrate in the dugout after Gonzalez hits his second home run of the game in the sixth inning of a baseball game against the San Francisco Giants at Coors Field in Denver on Wednesday, Aug. 4, 2010. The Rockies won 6-1. (AP Photo/Chris Schneider)

Five Numbers: Carlos Gonzalez's Home Dominance, Baseball's Wave Of Flamethrowers, And More

WASHINGTON - AUGUST 26:  Albert Pujols #5 of the St. Louis Cardinals hits a home run in the fourth inning against the Washington Nationals at Nationals Park on August 26 2010 in Washington DC. It was the 400th home run of his career. (Photo by Greg Fiume/Getty Images) link

In Progress: Cardinals Aim To End Skid Vs. Rival Reds

Washington Nationals' Nyjer Morgan, center, is led off the field after a brawl during the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Florida Marlins, Wednesday, Sept. 1, 2010, in Miami. (AP Photo/Wilfredo Lee) +8 updates

Nyjer Morgan Suspended Eight Games For Recent Infractions, Including Role In Brawl

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie