Bucs Dugout: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
New Blog: The Boxing Bulletin for Boxing Fans!

Three Long-Term Deals: Why We Shouldn't Worry

John Perrotto expresses concern about the Pirates' signings of Nate McLouth, Ryan Doumit and Paul Maholm to long-term contracts:

However, the Pirates are taking a bit of a gamble by committing to all three in the long term.

Maholm's lifetime record is 30-35 and his ERA is 4.30 after 96 starts. That isn't bad but it also isn't eye-popping.

Doumit had long been considered a talent but had never been able to stay healthy. He played in less than 100 games in three of the previous four seasons until last year.

McLouth had a wonderful year in 2008 but also struggled mightily once Jason Bay and Xavier Nady were traded in late July. McLouth hit just four home runs in 205 plate appearances, one every 51.3 PA, after Bay and Nady were dealt after going deep 22 times in 480 plate appearances, one every 21.8 PA, in the first four months of the season.

Surely any deal in which millions of dollars change hands is a "gamble," and Perrotto is right to point out that none of these guys are really superstars yet, if they'll ever be. But as multimillion-dollar gambles on non-superstar players go, I think these are pretty good ones. 

The Pirates had the right to take these three players to arbitration next offseason and the one after that. By signing these players, the Bucs are giving up the chance to non-tender one of these guys next year or the year after if they get hurt or fail to perform. But that possibility doesn't concern me terribly, because the Pirates are pretty likely to be bad in 2010, and perhaps also 2011, anyway. If Ryan Doumit breaks his back and never plays another game, the Bucs are still off the hook by the time 2012 rolls around, and that's the next time we might really reasonably expect them to be good again. 

Doumit, Maholm and McLouth all would have been a free agents after 2011, so having the flexibility to retain them in 2012 (and, in Doumit's case, 2013) is very nice. The Pirates have sacrificed some flexibility in years they won't be competitive for a considerable amount of flexibility in 2012, when they could be competitive and thus have a use for that flexibility. By then, Andrew McCutchen and Jose Tabata could be starting in the big leagues and hitting well, along with Pedro Alvarez and perhaps a couple other Coonelly/Huntington draftees. (In 2012, McCutchen and Alvarez will be 25; Tabata will be 23.)

Think of it this way. Doumit, Maholm and McLouth are signed through 2011 for sums that aren't be all that different from what they would've gotten in arbitration. If they're not any good by the time 2011 rolls around, the Pirates aren't going to be either, and with the time it will continue to take to remake the minor league system, there's really no getting around that. So the worst case scenario here is that the Pirates end up handing out several million bucks they'd rather not have spent in a year in which they stink anyway. The best case scenario is that Doumit, Maholm and McLouth contribute, earn their salaries, then form part of a real team in 2012. The Pirates are assuming some risk here, but not too much, and from a fan's perspective, there's really nothing to not like about these deals. The worst case scenario involves the owners spending a few extra bucks in 2011 for what is pretty likely to be a losing team. Why should we care about that? 

0 recs  |  Comment 12 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

What are the chances?

Charlie, I just posted on this because I hadn’t seen another developed take on the matter.

Skipping to your last point:

What are the chances the Pirates want to keep Doumit, Maholm AND McLouth in 2012 (for something like $27 million combined)? I’m thinking it’s not very likely, even if all three remain productive.

What are the chances that, of that group, McLouth is one they do want to keep? With the players you mentioned (McCutchen, Tabata, Alvarez) as new arrivals, it seems as if McLouth could/should be the odd man out by that point.

I see the flexibility: I just don’t think they’ll want to do anything with it. Seems like a non-story to me, as far as the baseball goes.

Believer in a Pirate Revolution.

by coryh64 on Feb 18, 2009 5:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

It could happen.

Depends on the state of the rest of the team, most likely.

by Vlad on Feb 18, 2009 8:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think it could happen, and I think that if McLouth remains productive, it’s pretty likely they will keep him. Personally, I think his career could veer back onto the tweener path, but it might also just be that he’s a late bloomer, and I’m glad to have an extra year to hold onto him if the Pirates need to.

by Charlie on Feb 18, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A few thoughts

1. I still question signing Maholm given his low upside and at his peak value. I like the Doumit deal the best because I think he has the highest unrealized ceiling of the three and he plays catcher.

2. I don’t have a problem with the strategy of buying out arbitration years, but it doesn’t impress me as a particularly strong commitment from ownership. We had these players any way and while I appreciate the cost certainty, the Pirates have never had a problem with keeping their best players during the arbitration years. The problem has been an ability or willingness to buy free agent years of good and star players. The fact that we have one free agent year from those 3 is smart because it is at an option, but (catch 22) it does nothing to inspire faith that ownership will spend when it is necessary to do so. I know that these signings likely weren’t intended to inspire such trust amongst the fans; and sure enough, it doesn’t – at least in me.

3. I suppose the real value of the option year is what it does for trade values.

4. All of that said, I think that the signings are pretty decent overall.

5. Charlie keeps referencing 2012 as the first time we can reasonably expect to be competitive. If management is doing their job reasonably well, I think that we can expect significant improvement in 2010. I don’t see legitimate playoff contention, but I think that a serious run at .500 in year 3 of a rebuild is reasonable. As for 2009 – it’s gonna be brutal.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Feb 18, 2009 8:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with Uncle Nate that...

2012 is probably looking TOO far in the future for improvement. 2010 may be reasonable for a winning record…and 2011 for scaring the Cubs…if everything falls right.

Just to give an example with Pedro Alvarez. He was supposedly the most talented hitter in the draft. We look back 10 years…and see a guy drafted in the 13th round of the draft…and spend only 1 year in the minors…and has NEVER hit below .300. Granted…it’s Phat Albert Pujols…but if PA is even 75% as talented as Pujols…being in the lineup a year from now isn’t unreasonable. Longoria and Zimmerman didn’t spend much time in the minors either.

by Thunder on Feb 18, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that we don't have a lot of spare bullets.

The closer we try and push the window, the smaller our margin of error is going to be.

by Vlad on Feb 18, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There's two sides to taking risks.

By NOT signing young guys to extensions, you risk having to pay them much more money if they do continue to play very well or improve.

Locking them up to below-market contracts (and I’m comparing to going year-to-year, not to free agent rates), you increase their trade value. $27MM buys about six wins on the free agent market. If these three guys are each about league average, it’s a break-even idea. If they’re each one or more wins better, it’s a steal (whether they’re Pirates or are traded). And since they’re options, you can pick and choose which ones to keep.

The point to signing young players to deals like this is that you expect them to be paid more money through arbitration. By “expect” I don’t mean “hope”. I mean, given our best knowledge of current skills, injuries, and player aging curves, what is the most likely career path for each of them. If you can lock them up for less than you expect to pay going year-to-year, you should do it.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Feb 18, 2009 10:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sky,

As you can see, I’ve come around to these signings a bit. :) I really like that the Pirates aren’t actually COMMITTED through 2012. That might really mess things up.

by Charlie on Feb 18, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t disagree that Maholm, Doumit and McLouth could be worth $27 million in 2012, as far as wins go. They would pay for themselves, I think.

I’m skeptical as to whether or not payroll would increase to such a point that it makes sense to pay three guys $27 million, when you’re also going to need to pay McCutchen, Tabata, etc. to keep them long term. I’m as big a believer in a “new Pirates” as anyone, I think, but I still don’t see payroll going over $70 million, even in a winning year.

Believer in a Pirate Revolution.

by coryh64 on Feb 18, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tabata, at least, shouldn't be an issue.

He’s probably only in his second year in the bigs in 2012, so he’ll be making the minimum or close to it.

I also think it’s important to emphasize that future dollars are worth less than present dollars, due to the miracle of interest. And that if the sport’s gross revenues continue to rise, so will the payrolls for all teams, in purely linear fashion.

As for $70M, Nutting has said that he’ll increase the payroll in future seasons if the performance on the field warrants it. He may or may not be telling the truth about this – there’s no way to know for sure one way or the other yet. We’ll just have to wait and see.

by Vlad on Feb 18, 2009 1:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am pleased with their signings.

I feel that all 3 players have excellent prospects for continued success and I think they are all good players around whom we can begin to build a solid base. Kudos to NH for recognizing their talent, as well as Snell’s. I believe this was money well-spent and will begin paying dividends. Snell has a terrific arm, Doumit a great bat, Maholm a good record, and McClouth may be one of the better OF in the NL very soon. Good job.

by Illinois Pirate Fan on Feb 18, 2009 11:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Salary Cap

The following is from Red Sox owner John Henry as borrow from an article linked on the PBC Blog.

“One could see it that way,” Lucchino said. “I think that sometimes a short-term problem for us may be a longer-term solution for the game, for the industry, and also for us.”

This is only a minor, early sign of potential good things to come. And I’m pretty sure that half this board berated the other half for saying similar things about 2 months ago.

Good day.

by Uncle Nate on Feb 19, 2009 8:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Pittsburgh Pirates.
Start posting about the Pirates »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

101_0170_small
40-Man Moves
18470r_small
Rule 5 possibilities
20080124sgrammy_330_small
Small Market Teams Pocketing Spare Change
Small
Jeebus Cracker
Small
McCutchen's defense
Small
Roberto calling
20090612mf_fleury_cup_500hp_small
Pirates would trade Doumit!
Leo4_small
John Sickels' Comments on Donnie Veal
Pitt20_small
LaRoche to the Phils?
Bloody_mary_small
Ohlendorf Blogging: USDA can't keep him "down on the farm."

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Mariners Eyeing Doumit
Tabata 5-5 w/3 Ribbies - Hitting .390 @ EOS
Bay rejects $60M over 4 years
"[Chase D'Arnaud] does everything well enough," said an American League...
Pirates hire Steve Williams as Major League scout
Jim Tracy, Baby! NL Manager of the Year!
2009 Minor League Six-Year Free Agent Listing
NL Rookie of the Year: Chris Coghlan
2010 CHONE Projections
2010 UZR Projections

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SPONSORS


Managers

Charlie_small Charlie