Andy LaRoche Latest to Admit He Didn't Follow Offseason Workout Plan
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 22, 2009 6:02 PM EST
Email
PrintAnd now he's missing the spring opener. It's possible LaRoche will get off to a great start in April (I mean Andy, obviously) and none of this will matter. But in the meantime, he's making it hard for a card-carrying LaRoche fan club member like myself to keep defending him:
A couple of years ago, LaRoche was hobbled by a protruding disc. He did not need surgery and the problem went away when LaRoche began a dedicated exercise program.
"My back felt great and this offseason I didn't really stick with (the exercises) like I should," LaRoche admitted. "I guess the doctors were right when they said I'll have to stick with them for the rest of my career."
Yes, Andy, doctors often give good advice about one's health. Hopefully LaRoche doesn't also find out the hard way that, say, the accountants were right when they suggested that he should pay his taxes.
UPDATE: Matt Capps says he did work hard this offseason, but not last offseason:
“I can’t take an offseason off, expect to come into spring training and just use these three or four weeks to get into shape,” Pittsburgh’s closer said Saturday at Pirate City. “You’ve got to stay on top of it. I learned that the hard way last year"...
Last year, Capps didn’t begin working out until January.
“I’ve never been scared of working,” he said. “Now, I’m a little smarter.
“I think this is the path I need to take for the rest of my career.”
I'm thinking of a commonly-used phrase I don't wish to say here, but it ends with "Sherlock."
I'm not sure what makes Pirates players think that admitting stuff like this is a good idea--Tom Gorzelanny has also admitted he phoned in the 2007-2008 offseason. But, more importantly, I wonder what the Pirates can do to make this stuff stop happening. That's three times now (that we know about!) on the new management's watch. I realize they can't babysit players during the offseason, except maybe the ones they send to winter leagues, but I wonder if something can be done. Until then, it appears there are several Pirates who don't really care very much about their jobs.
56 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
This is a bad sign.
It speaks volumes of his intelligence, dedication and work ethic. Often those are the ingredients that separate the good from the great and the never forgotten from the never known. You would think with all of the negative press he’s gotten, with his poor performance to date at the major league level, the fact that every fan expects him to perform at a Jason Bay level already that he would have done everything possible to make sure he got ready for the season. Truly amazing. I guess my gut feeling about his breakout year was wrong. I hope this not a sign of things to come in 2009.
He’s only missing a few spring training games, I’m not going to get too worked up over this. Hopefully he’s learned his lesson and sticks to his doctor-recommended workout plans in the future.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Feb 22, 2009 6:52 PM EST reply actions
I haven’t checked or anything, but I feel confident saying Dejan’s comment section just exploded.
STOP LETTING ME DOWN, LAROCHE.
Yep...the PBC blog
has gotten a little busy after Chuck Finder’s blog entry. I’ve been griping all weekend about players being “given” a starting position not based on long term performance before spring training (Andy LaRoche and Nyjer Morgan).
If a player truly earns a starting role (see McLouth, Nate and Doumit, Ryan last spring training)…fine…and Andy may still do that. If he does, that benefits the team. What has been done up to this point does not. Pearce and Walker, among others, have pretty much been told they are going to Indy to start the season, no matter what happens in the next 5 weeks.
Why on earth...
…would you let Walker “earn” a starting spot this spring, after his terrible 2008? For that to make sense, you’d have to assume that minor league performance is totally meaningless.
I don’t think you should stick with a guy who’s doggin’ it, but at some point you have to focus on getting your eight best players on the field, regardless of who happens to be hot for a week against AAA pitching in ST.
Why On Earth ...
would you count on a guy who had the season that Andy LaRoche had last year and literally hand him the 3B job?
If I were Team Coonington, I would have definitely had a backup plan in mind for 3B this season. And I don’t believe that either Hinske, Vasquez or Walker is the answer.
Because he's literally never had a bad season before.
At any level of ball, professional or amateur. Ever. And with his thumb injury last year, it seems likely that he’ll return to his prior state of non-sucking now that he’s healthy again.
It’s also worth noting that even with only one good hand in 2008, he was still better at AAA than Walker was.
Have You Ever Heard of AAAA Players?
If you look in the dictionary, you’ll find a picture of Lil LaRoche.
There have been many players that have put up great numbers in AAA that have had little more than a cup of coffee in the bigs.
I would much rather have Blake Dewitt than Andy LaRoche. Obviously, the Dodgers felt/feel the same way.
Actually, on the 2009 Pirates, I would rather have Dewitt at 2B than Sanchez.
Where's your evidence...
…that LaRoche is a AAAA player? Oh, that’s right. All you have is his 2008, when he was playing hurt.
The Dodgers liked DeWitt more last year because he was healthy and LaRoche wasn’t. They liked DeWitt so much, in isolation, that they signed Casey Blake and Orlando Hudson to push him back down to AAA this offseason.
Vlad, You Are Right
Dewitt may be back in AAA with the Dodgers because they can afford to pay the big bucks to the Blakes and Hudsons.
But Dewitt is better than both LaRoche and Sanchez, and we are talking about the Pirates, not the Dodgers.
I have no evidence that Lil LaRoche is a AAAA player. That is strictly my opinion.
But what makes you think that he is a major leaguer based on his major league performance to date? The only thing that his statistics show me is that he was a fairly decent AAA player. Plus, after watching him for the better part of two months, I can unequivocally say that he is a very average 3Bman and a well below-average runner. He is not a contact hitter, does not look like he will hit for average, and I don’t think that he is going to display much power.
But like I say, we’ll see what happens. I think that it won’t be long before we see Vasquez or Hinske platooning at 3B with LaRoche.
Fortunately, I don't have to rely on his ML performance.
That’s what his extensive, impressive minor league record and positive scouting reports are for. Thus, we don’t have to rely on a couple months’ worth of injury-affected poor play.
I think that...
anyone should be CAPABLE of earning a starting position…not that they WOULD earn a starting position. To totally ignore spring training is ALMOST as bad as ignoring past performance at the major league level. Nate McLouth’s OVERALL numbers prior to last year wouldn’t make a large argument for a starting spot…but spring training convinced the Pirates that he was capable.
I’ll go back to the old, reliable argument…suppose Steven Pearce hits curveballs this spring (what he was asked to work on)…do you still send him to Indy?? Or do you watch Nyjer Morgan hit .250…overslide bases and roll the ball back to the infield on defense?? Don’t tell players that they are going back to AAA no matter what.
Totally Agree, Thunder
Steve Pearce should, at the least, be platooned in RF with Moss. When the Pirates are facing a LH SP, Moss should move to LF and Pearce should play RF. (I am not sure that Pearce is ready to cover LF at PNC.)
I also feel that, depending on how LaRoche starts the season offensively at 1B, Pearce should play a little 1B against LH SP.
Pearce has far more ability and potential than Chris Shelton ever had.
I Have No Problem...
with giving Nyjer a shot early in the season in LF against RHP. However, if Nyjer is unable to get on base and unable to make things happen on the basepaths and score some runs, he should be eliminated from the Pirates’ picture.
I watched Morgan and McCutchen play enough games in the AZ Fall League in, I believe, 2007 that there is no doubt in my mind that McCutchen is the better player.
Russell managed in the AZ Fall League that same year and saw plenty of them both. I have a very hard time understanding how he can go along with Team Coonington and continue to keep McCutchen “down on the farm”.
They would rather have him for an extra year when he's in his prime...
…than an extra couple of months right now.
I agree that you probably don’t understand this. Fortunately, the team doesn’t depend on your understanding in order to do the right thing.
When you let guys with a bad track record "win" jobs in ST...
…you get performances like Don Kelly as the primary UT IF, or Joe Beinel in the rotation, or Dennys Reyes in the pen.
Walker could hit .600 this spring, and I still wouldn’t give him the job. Because he’s not ready, as his entire professional record demonstrates, and a few gappers against journeymen with the wind blowing out in Florida won’t change that.
ooh i like this game
sean burnett would have beaten out gorzo in 2007 for the last rotation spot the year gorzo won 14 games with a sub 4.00 era and burnett’s k/bb rate in AAA was 31/39
Ol' reliable not so reliable
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09009/940727-63.stm
“Steve Pearce is a viable option, and he has been from day one,” Huntington said.
…management to tentatively view Pearce’s best path as one in which he plays regularly in Indianapolis (emphasis azibuck)
But, according to Huntington, that view could change if Pearce has an encouraging spring,
Doesn’t sound like “no matter what”.
Obviously…the rumors from the Dodgers organization had some truth to them about Andy’s work ethic. You’d think Adam would have tipped him off about Capps/Gorzo/Paulino/Sharpless…etc. It also makes me wonder whether the Pirates did their due diligence on Andy before the trade.
You’d think after being “given” the 3B starting spot before spring training, he’d respond by showing up in shape. Guess not. I’m to the point with Adam and Andy that I think they’d be better off not paying attention in someone else’s organization…and having guys that might not be “quite” as talented…but more motivated…play.
seriously?
I manage to keep up with my workout plan, and I work a desk job… these guys are professional athletes… professional athletes with plenty of time off in the offseason to hit the gym on a regular basis… you’d think they’d have a greater interest in keeping up with the program… sheesh…
by Captain Easychord on Feb 22, 2009 9:27 PM EST reply actions
This will make you feel better
You cant really track the ball, I just love the guy chanting overrated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlhTPNr-_DM
to be fair
LaRoche didnt come in out of shape – he just ignored the specific exercises for his back. I dont think that has anything to do with work ethic, it has to do with “my back is fine”. To lump him in with Gorzo and Capps is a mistake. They came in overweight.
Agree and disagree...
Yes coming in to camp out of shape would be worse than what he did but this is very much a work ethic issue. I have a bad hip and I have regimen where I have to strecth every single day so that I can continue to run and work out pain free. It is a pain in the ass. There are times when I get sick of doing it so I blowed it off for a couple of weeks and guess what, my hips and knees begin to hurt just like the doctors said it would. The difference is I’m not playing major league baseball and don’t have 24 other guys countnig on me to come into camp in great playing shape. Laroche does. His decision was immature, selfish and very much an issue of work ethic. He just didn’t happen to come in to camp as a fat ass.
Not an Out of Shape Issue
I agree that back exercises aren’t a work ethic issue. The kid is 24 or 25, he’ll be fine…
immature
Yes Immature. One of the few things that young players in the MLB i think don’t learn right away is the work ethic that is really required on an annual basis to be a big leaguer. When your 20-21-22 years old, you figure that well i’ll get up and go play ball for fun. Yeah work out here and there and I’m talented and i’ll be okay.
That’s what i think and i hope a Eric Hinske or (prior Doug Mentkewicz(my bad spelling)) brings to the team. You can’t just hope to wing it on talent. There is a work ethic that is required even once you’re established. Noticeably you don’t hear about Ryan Doumit, Jack Wilson, Freddie Sanchez coming into camp overweight or not in good condition. They’ve matured as big leaguers.
As much as staff can emphasize working out in the offseason and maintaining a regiman, They can’t follow players around all the time. It’s the player’s responsibility. Obviously, it behooves the young player to stay in good shape in order to make camp, but again the mentality that talent overcomes a good work ethic only lasts so long.
It should not be assumed that I am convinced that Steven Pearce
should be in the majors no matter what. That is not the case. If he deserves to be there…he should be.
What I have a problem with is the inequality that seems to be in the Pirates system. The example being Littlefield draftees Cutch, Pearce and Walker. They’ve been told pretty much “Back to Indy you go, no matter what happens in spring training.” And yet, Andy LaRoche hasn’t proven anything at the MAJOR LEAGUE level either…and he’s been coronated the starting 3B. LaRoche’s minor league numbers are strikingly similar to Pearce…but Pearce is told he has a lot to work on offensively…and LaRoche gets the nod at the position he “plays”. Anyone that watches Morgan and Cutch can tell you who the better player is…but that’s not who’s starting the season in Pittsburgh.
And frankly…if players haven’t gotten the wakeup call by now that they need to be physically ready for the season walking into Bradenton…what’s it going to take?
The reason...
as Charlie has stated before is that minor league stats count. McCutchen, Walker and (most recently) Steve Pearce have not had substantial success in the minors. They have yet to dominate at any level where as Laroche has dominated at every level. Laroche has nothing left to prove in AAA. If he doesn’t make at in the show he’s not going to make it. Walker and McCutchen still have some developing to do and it is better for that to take place in AAA.
You are operating under the premise that these young guys are better off taking their lumps in the majors because they have more talent than the players in front of them. I disagree. I think they should show they have mastered one level before they moved on to the next and none of the players you mentioned have done that yet. Moving them to the majors now could, and most likely, would destroy the promising futures we think they have. Be patient. If we send Cutch and Pearce down and they tear the cover off of the ball the first couple of months and then guys in front of them are struglling, then they should be promoted and let the new Cutch era begin now. But let’s let Cutch have some success first before we annoint him the second coming of Clemente.
Slick...
do a little research…Pearce’s minor league numbers across the board are very comparable to Andy LaRoche’s. If you can’t see that…there’s a problem. So if Pearce hasn’t had success, neither has LaRoche. The biggest difference in their numbers is that LaRoche has about 400 more plate appearances in the minors than Pearce…in about 2 1/2 more minor league seasons. Yes, Pearce struggled some in 2008…but the body of work in the minors for the two of them is almost identical. Should Pearce be penalized because he went to college? You make it sound that way.
Actually…LaRoche has failed to dominate the most important level…the majors…and Pearce’s numbers at that level are better. LaRoche didn’t have a thumb problem in 2007.
“Pearce’s minor league numbers across the board are very comparable to Andy LaRoche’s.”
Except that Pearce was two years older than LaRoche at each stop.
Umm…their birthdays are 5 months apart. The difference is that Pearce went to the University of South Carolina for 2 years while LaRoche went through the minors. Was Pearce supposed to start at Altoona or Indy to make up for that?? LaRoche went to AA about the time that Pearce signed with the Pirates one week after the draft. Hell, the Pirates don’t even have Pedro starting at Altoona.
Birthdays don’t matter. Baseball age versus your competition does. I’m no Pearce hater by any means, but tearing up AA at age 24 is a lot different than tearing up AA at ages 21 and 22. The point isn’t necessarily that Pearce is/was a crappy prospect (to answer your point, he maybe could have started at Lynchburg, especially if he was a good prospect, but nobody ever accused Littlefield/Graham of knowing what they were doing), but that Andy LaRoche has a heck of a history that people keep attempting to downplay by comparing him to run-of-the-mill prospects like Steve Pearce. It’s clear that Pirates fans aren’t used to having guys with histories like LaRoche around, but that’s not their fault. Blame Littlefield.
Short answer: Pearce is overrated, LaRoche is underrated.
I bet you’re one of those guys that thinks Nyjer should get extra credit because “he got a late start”, though.
Not sure about Pearce being overrated...
…but a lot of people seem to be significantly underrating LaRoche. And if PNC Park were on fire and you could only carry one out, it’d be LaRoche every time.
So you're saying he couldn't walk out on his own?
Pffff. Figures. Dude can’t even walk out of a burning stadium on his own and YOU PEOPLE think he’s the 3B of the future.
That's why it was the short answer!
Pearce is being overrated relative to LaRoche. LaRoche belongs to a class of prospect the Pirates have seen very few of…well, ever. Pearce is not in that class, and even comparing the two overrates Pearce.
Umm...that's a big no
on Morgan getting extra credit for a late start. Frankly…I don’t think Morgan should be in the running for a starting role…because the ONLY tool he has is speed…and he doesn’t use that well.
I did research...
I just should have clarified in my post. Pearce took a serious step backwards last season then continued his slump in the fall league. This is where he and Laroche diverge. The opposition has learned about the gigantic hole in Pearce swing and exploited in AAA. Pearce needs to prove he can adjust. Laroche was able to make adjustments at each level and Pearce needs to do the same. Plus Pearce was old for his level at every stop. And no Pearce should be penalized for anything. He just needs to show he can hit a curveball and bring him up. He is one of the few bright spots in the org when it comes to a power source. I’m by no means against Pearce in any way. I just don’t want him working out his curveball issues against major league pitching.
Besides you should not make this a Laroche vs Pearce argument. I think with the way Pearce played last year he needs to prove that he can make an adjustment before he gets to the show. That is all.
But...
I should also elaborate that a strong spring training performance for Pearce would mean a lot more than McCutchen and Walker. As you stated Pearce has had success in the minors and had one very dominant season. He has also tasted the majors. If he comes into spring training showing management he has worked on the things they wanted him too, showed improved plate discipline and hits off speed pitches with authority, I think he should make the team. I would much rather see him in the line up over Morgan. He is a lot closer to the bigs than Cutch or Walker, IMO.
I agree
The changeup/Curve ball has made Pearce struggle. the AAA Teams figured that out and he wasn’t hitting as well last year in AAA until late last year i think. But like slick1 said, it’s not just the off speed pitches. In addition, I think it gave him playing time to get his at bats and if they are going to platoon him at RF, then he gets his reps in the outfield or 1B.
Now we are getting somewhat closer to agreement.
If Pearce performs…he should make the team. If Andy LaRoche doesn’t perform…he shouldn’t make the team…but he will. He’s got the team made one way or the other. That’s why not taking care of the back bothers me. Pirates management would be admitting they made a mistake if LaRoche needed to be sent down…something they haven’t been real good about up to this point.
The back exercises are a pretty minor thing.
It’s kind of like not finishing a course of antibiotics, even though the doctor tells you to do it, and then relapsing. Sure, it’s dumb, but it’s a pretty common mistake, and now that he understands the consequences I doubt it’ll happen again.
Devil's Advocate
He hurt his back, or his back ailment was diagnosed, in late 2007. So while the thumb was surely a factor in 2008, I wonder if he doesn’t have an “issue” with his back. Perhaps not pain, but discomfort, range of motion issues, etc. I have no idea, but I’m at least a tiny bit suspicious.
So...
are you guys blaming the .226 that Andy hit in 35 games with the Dodgers in 2007 on his back?? Just want to be clear on that?? So when do we know when he’s healthy enough to put up good numbers??
Right now…Andy LaRoche has 370 plate appearances (roughly 2/3 of a season for a regular) in the majors…only about half with the Pirates. His slash numbers in the majors are .184/.288/.272. If he was injured significantly enough to affect his performance radically…he should have been on the DL…not a major league roster.
When do we start looking at what he has done in the majors…and quit looking at what he’s done in the minors?? When is that true about ANY player?
He had a .365 OBP in 2007, too, but who's counting?
As for 2008, hand injuries don’t keep you from playing – they just keep you from playing well. If he’d stayed with the Dodgers after the deadline, he would’ve been playing about the same amount. It just would’ve been in the minors on a rehab assignment.
Unless you’re outraged by the idea of us not pulling out all the stops to win win win over the last month of the season, or you wanted them to bench Walker at AAA so that LaRoche could rehab there, I don’t see why you’re upset.
Again...I ask...
when does major league performance or lack thereof, begin to override what has gone on in the minors?
IF Andy, or Morgan, or Moss were to struggle at the major league level this season…at what point would you be convinced that they couldn’t cut it?? 100 AB?? 300 AB?? the entire season?? Just curious. When does one define whether a player can or cannot perform at the major league level. Not so long ago, we had a pitcher that put up real good numbers at AAA. A 2.56 ERA at Indy in 2007. And 3.94 in 2008. Didn’t take very long for everybody (about 3 bad starts at the major league level) to bury JVB.
Depends on each individual case.
LaRoche has been dominant every year in the minors, so he gets a lot of rope: at least half a year as a full-time starter this season, and probably more. Moss hasn’t been as strong, so maybe two months for him. Morgan hasn’t ever hit much at any level of the minors, and I’d give up on him next week if we had any good alternatives.
It also depends on how badly they’re struggling and why, of course.
Moss ...
is going to put up far better numbers than Lil LaRoche.
If Morgan play only against RHP and utilizes his strengths, he will also contribute more than LaRoche.
JVB
When considering JVB, it’s important to remember that:
*His minor league peripherals over the last two years weren’t as good as his minor league ERA. A guy with a 2.56 ERA generally won’t have a 6.5 K/9 and a 1.37 WHIP, as JVB did in 2007.
*JVB was pitching in a favorable environment, a slight pitcher’s park in the AAA league with the lower offensive baseline, and as such, his numbers were improved by that context.
*JVB was too old to be considered a prospect, and he’d had a serious labrum tear, both of which greatly reduced his ceiling (labrum repairs almost never end up as good as new). As such, his capacity for improvement and adjustment on the ML level was limited.
What??
Do you know what a Devil’s Advocate is? And I’m the only one that said it, so who are “you guys”? Also, phrases like “I wonder” and “I have no idea” and “I’m… suspicious” should tip you off that I’m not blaming anything. I’m blindly speculating/wondering if it was also a factor. We can’t possibly know if his back was an issue because his thumb was an issue.
And what Vlad said. It’s different for each case as to when MLB performance starts to count. When does it count for Morgan? He’s hit for a decent average all through the minors, with no dropoff in his brief MLB experience. There were a LOT of guys last year that thought Morgan should start over Nate because “we know what Nate is - a .240.250 hitter with doubles power.” (See whygavs archives from this time last year).
I'm fairly confident that Morgan will be at least OK at hitting for average.
.270 or .280, something like that. The problem is that based on his minor league record, he doesn’t do anything else on offense. He draws walks at a below-average rate, he has no power at all, and he’s not a high-percentage basestealer.
Pirates management has been good at pointing out weaknesses to their players up to this point…in most cases (shipping to minors). Management hasn’t been real good about admitting to the few mistakes they’ve made to this point (see also, Alvarez, Pedro, contract SNAFU). Trading for a guy with 2 significant health problems…hmmm…wonder how much they knew about either one of them when the trade was made?
They had all of his medical records...
…so probably quite a lot. At a minimum, the thumb thing had been all over the news for months.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Baseball Nation Recent Stories
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Five tips for Showtime’s second season of ‘The Franchise,’ featuring the Miami Marlins
- The 10 best things about being a Detroit Tigers fan
- Surprise! A’s finally end the Yoenis Cespedes derby with $36 million deal for Cuban star
- The time Whitney Houston sang to Jim Bowden
- Pitchers and catchers! Mariners get early start in Arizona
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
