Blue Jays Claim T.J. Beam
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 5, 2009 6:50 PM EST
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PrintThey made room for him on the roster by designating their top 2002 draft pick, Russ Adams, for assignment. Too bad.
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Yep, me too.
And I think we’ll end up needing him before the year’s over.
Can’t say the same about Davidson.
Off the table?
From the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel: Ben Sheets expected to undergo elbow surgery, may miss half of 2009 season.
Our old friend
Outfielder Jacque Jones and first baseman-outfielder Daryle Ward agreed Thursday to minor league contracts with the Cincinnati Reds.
Funny comment from Rotoworld
Beam figures to be another one of those players the Jays claim and then try to slip through waivers a week or two later.
If it is true that Beam has an option left as someone has commented,
there is not need for the Jays to slip him through waivers as they can simply option him to their AAA team. The issue with the Pirates wasn’t that he was out of options but that the powers that be felt they needed the 40-man roster space. The Jays have already made room for him on theirs.
By my count, he had one. The Yankees used options in 2006 and 2007, but no option was used in 2008 because he signed a minor league deal and wasn’t placed on the 40-man roster until the Pirates called him up for good.
What I wouldn’t forget here is that (1) when the Yankees removed him from their roster a year ago nobody claimed him and (2) for Toronto to claim him the entire NL and a majority of the AL had to pass on him.
Those are good points
especially (2). A lot of the posters in these threads take it as a given that their won judgement is better than that of the professionals now running the PBC. I can’t help but suspect that we owe them a wee bit more respect than is sometimes shown here. They must have access to information that we do not.
by WestCoastBuc on Feb 7, 2009 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
"Owing Respect"
It is obvious that the front office knows a helluva lot more about the players than we do.
They know their capabilities, their personalities, and hopefully, they know what makes them tick.
However, RESPECT HAS TO BE EARNED. It is not a given. When, in one’s first season, all that the new front office has to show for their work is 67 wins, that does not earn any respect from me.
Everyone on this blog measures progress in different ways. As far as I am concerned, the only true way to measure progress is the W-L record at PNC Park.
Everything that the front office does should be done with an eye on the W-L record at PNC
Park In the end, that is really the only thing that matters. In the long run, that is how the work of the front office will be measured.
Jeebus...
The FO got 67 wins from the team they inherited from DL. What should they have done, gutted the roster right before Spring Training? Let’s see what they do with the players they’ve acquired before we start with the “earned respect” stuff, eh?
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
by cocktailsfor2 on Feb 7, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Beamer
Beamer was expendable, especially in light of getting Hinske…Buccos need offense!
Check out former Pirate Blyleven’s psuedo Hall of Fame honor: http://morehardball.blogspot.com/2009/02/hardball-heroes-bert-blyleven.html
We Should Be GM's @ http://pabaseball.blogspot.com
More Hardball @ http://morehardball.blogspot.com
Chicken Little
OH NO!! The Pirates lost a 28-year old relief pitcher with 52 games of MLB experience, a career ERA+ of 79 and a career WHIP of 1.49 on waivers. Pack it up, the season’s lost.
Small unforced errors add up.
Beam wasn’t the worst player on the roster, so by getting rid of him, they decreased the overall level of talent available to the team (if only slightly).
It’s not like the pen was exactly a strength last year. We don’t need to make things any harder there for ourselves than they already are.
Agreed, but...
Huntington is going to want to showcase his trade returns from last year. You can almost make book that Hansen, Karstens and Ohlendorf will be on the MLB roster, and Meek probably will be too (although he was Rule 5 to start, is technically on the roster because of a trade).
Would it have killed them to keep Beam? Not at all, but with the returning pitchers in the rotation to the holdovers in the pen, he’s probably nothing more than Triple-A filler and thus not worth getting worked up over.
Even if they were hoping not to need him...
…he had an option left (IIRC), and could’ve been stashed at AAA.
You Are Right, Vlad
This is not a big deal, but it is just another example of poor talent evaluation and faulty, front-office decision-making.
Beam is more valuable to the Pirates than either Davidson or Cruz, neither of whom will ever help the Pirates.
But to think that the Pirates are going to get better in three years solely by having good June free agent drafts and by signing Latin American talent is a major fallacy.
The Pirates are going to have to make some
Agree this is not a big deal and that they could have tucked him away at Indy if they so chose, which they did not.
However, disagree on the second part of your opening sentence. Trading Chris Young for Matt Herges is poor talent evaluation; dumping Matt Herges before the regular season is faulty front-office decision making.
This is neither. It is cutting loose a guy who has shown nothing at the MLB level and deciding that younger players, however poor their historic showings have been, still possess more upside than Beam.
He didn't exactly show "nothing"...
4.14 ERA, 1.38 WHIP. And his worst month (by far) was his first, so if his trend line represents actual improvement, his present true talent level may have been higher than his season line would indicate.
FIP thinks that he got a little bit lucky last year, but his ML line wasn’t quite up to the standard of his pre-promotion AAA numbers, so that’s something of a wash from a predictive standpoint.
Machine projections for 2009 liked him, too.
I think the reason for letting Beam go is that the FO doesn’t see him as having the potential to be any better than he was in 2008, whereas they see guys like Romulo! and Davidson as having the potential to be much better than that. I don’t really see it with Davidson, but I’ve been wrong before. The point is, they’re not going to keep Beam just because he might add 0.0001 expected wins above what Davidson might add. After watching DL cling to the likes of Mike Lincoln and Jason Boyd, I’m happy with the change in priorities.
by WTM on Feb 6, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Please elaborate....
“This is not a big deal, but it is just another example of poor talent evaluation and faulty, front-office decision-making.”
Can you provide more examples of poor talent evaluation and faulty front-office decision making. I happen to think that talent evaluaiton so far has been one of NHs strengths. Nate McClouth is still sitting on the bench if it weren’t for him and Doumit probably isn’t with the team. I hope you are not referring to the Bay and Nady trades yet because it is way too early to tell on either front. Would you provide you reasons please? I would like to understand your position better.
No. 1: Judging that Matt Morris could survive in the rotation.
No. 2: Judging that the rotation at Indy provided enough depth to back up the five starters in Pittsburgh.
No. 3 Judging that Rivas or Gomez could handle short.
No. 4: You’ve sort of cut off Bay/Nady discussion, but early returns aren’t good.
No. 5: The same with respect to the on-field productivity of the 2008 draftees who actually played.
No. 6: Part of talent evaluation is judging a player’s makeup, and early returns on Pedro Alvarez are not good.
Decision making: the entire Torres/Salas/Redmond/Yates sequence is positively DLesque.
by Arnold Rothstein on Feb 6, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Again, I'm a supporter of what NH is doing.
by Arnold Rothstein on Feb 6, 2009 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know that the Morris thing is a fair cop.
NH inherited a roster with basically nothing in the way of SP alternatives. I don’t think they liked Morris – it was just a matter of not having many other bodies to throw out there in his stead.
The 2008 drafft criticism, in addition to being extremely premature, isn’t really accurate either. Some draftees did not meet expectations (Mercer being most prominent among these), but others greatly exceeded them (Jarek Cunningham, Matt Hague, the unfortunately stolen Cole White, etc.). At worst, it should be a push for now.
It was NH’s decision not to back up the five starters, going into spring training, with any additions except for Dumatrait.
Hague batted okay. If White was an insightful pick talent-wise, he was mistake decision-wise. I call that a wash. Cunningham is really the only draftee who made a strong move upward.
by Arnold Rothstein on Feb 6, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
That's not entirely accurate.
Could anyone have predicted going into the season that Gorzo and Snell would completely fall apart? He did bring in Dumatrai and Taubenheim and we had to find out what we had in JVB and Bullington. As Vlad pointed out Morris was not NHs fault. The best he could have hoped for was a strong start to the season like he had the previous year in the hopes he would generate some trade value. Again, the draft is not a good example as it is extremely premature and most of the high upside talent we acuired signed late and did not play; or play much. On Pedro, if we had not drafted him NH would have received even more criticism. Every major publication had Pedro rated as the top talent in the draft. Torres and Yates I will give you…not the best moves but they also weren’t moves that crippled the future of the franchise or even hurt the 2008 team that much so all in all not that big of a deal. And they weren’t entirely DLesque because Yates still had some upside. I agree that Rivas and Gomez was a good example of a talent evaluation misfire. BUT, to state these minor talent misfires and ignore the successes is kind of selling NH short. He picked Barthemeir for nothing and there appears to be upside there. To counter your draft argument I feel he had a very good draft picking many high upside talents: Grossman, Freeman, Miller, Cunningham, etc. He traded that fat toad Paulino which he deserves some props for. Evan Meek appears to be a nice pickup and I think he deserves credit for taking a chance on Veal. You brought up the trades but early returns indicate that we won the Yankee trade and lost the Bay trade. I personally feel we will be happy with both. The Yankees are trying to deal Nady and all three of the pitchers we received are fighting for a rotation spot and Tabata appears to have regained top prospect status again. The Bay trade obviouslyu depends on Larcoche and Morris. That’s why I stated above it’s too soon to deal but to your point the early indicators show that the trades are a wash.
Morris
NH didn’t acquire Morris, but he made the mistake of handing Morris a guaranteed rotation spot at the start of the off-season. NH himself has admitted it was a mistake, because it kept him from signing minor league FAs to compete for rotation jobs. Dumatrait and Taubenheim were waiver claims. They had no choice. The guys who had a choice wouldn’t sign with the Pirates. It gives you a lot more depth and roster flexibility to have some guys on minor league deals.
by WTM on Feb 6, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
So Huntington was supposed to know...
…that the Army was going to change its policy on active-duty personnel playing professional sports after we chose him? Ooohkay. And not only that, but you’re going to clip him for misusing a 41st-round draft pick? Do you know how low the success rate is in that slot?
Hague was 16th in the Sally League in raw OPS
That’s more than just OK. He raised his profile considerably – compare the relative pre- and post-draft hype around him and Farrell, taken one round earlier.
Not sure why I’m bothering to respond to a self-confessed troll, but there it is.
It's A Start!
I was totally in favor of last years’ trades. I’m not going to argue about what we got in return, because the trades had to be made to build some depth in the system.
But now they have to trade some of their players that other teams might want, like Doumit, Capps, Snell, Gorzelanny, Maholm, Sanchez, Wilson, LaRoche, Grabow (even McLouth) or others.
Obviously, they have to see what is being offered in return. We have to know whom we want from other organizations before we start talking. In many cases, it is going to be AA prospects.
But to think that the Pirates are going to suddenly be competing in 2011 or 2012 based on our June and Latin America signings is absolutely ridiculous.
Okay, now that we understand part of your secret plan
to make the Pirates competitive in 2009, we all hope you will be divulging the rest of it soon.
OK, I can agree with that.
And I’d be surprised if at least some of those guys aren’t moved over the next year.
And the award for...
best comment on a Pittsburgh Pirates blog goes to
by Ketcham Bruce on Feb 6, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Thank You, Arnold!...
for helping to answer ‘Slick1’.
‘Slick1’ - The Pirates have done virtually nothing since the end of the 2007 season except placate the fans into thinking that they had a bonanza 2008 June draft and built a complex in the Dominican about ten years too late.
They have stood pat for both the 2008 and 2009 seasons. In 2008, they felt that the players had underperformed in 2007 and expected greater results in 2008 - 67 wins.
In 2009, the answer is going to be Joe Kerrigan with an assist from the new 1B coach.
They have one new infielder since the Littlefield era in Andy LaRoche.
They have a catcher who can’t catch.
MClouth finally got a chance in CF because they could no longer put up with the injuries and antics of Chris Duffy and they knew that Nate could do more than Nyjer. But now Nyjer is pencilled in for the time being as our LFer!
There is a little more depth in the system, but very little. Aside from McCutchen and Tabata, who do we really have to look forward to? Alvarez has become quite a question mark. He looks like another of Boras’ oversold bill of goods.
Like I say … just keep watchin!
WstCstBucco ...
If one is critical of Team Coonington, does that make them a “troll”?
Is everyone on this blog supposed to be a cheerleader for the Pirates?
Am I missing something?
To say that Alvarez has gone
from being the consensus pick as the best college hitter, to being ‘quite a question mark’ is ridiculous.
It’s not like your opinion is based on anything he has done on the field of play. While I believe it’s true that nobody benefited from his ugly contract situation, that in itself does not limit the player’s ability to rake with the bat on a baseball diamond.
And as for his conditioning – the guy is in his early twenties. Let’s face it, at that age, a couple of weeks spent circuit training and he’ll be fitter than most vets.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 6, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
RDV across the sea ...
Please refresh my memory regarding all of the Pirates’ great first round draft choices over the last 40 plus years.
What do the last forty years first round picks have to do with this thread?
You cited one of the mistakes made by NH/FC was the questionable drafting of Pedro Alvarez.
I noted that it is ridiculous to question the first rounder’s credentials when he hasn’t even played a professional game yet.
End of.
by RDV across the sea on Feb 6, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
That Bonds fella turned out pretty well.
You could make a case for him as the best first-rounder of the whole draft era.
Of course, current management didn’t have any more to do with that pick than with any of the disappointing ones of the last decade. But if we’re going to pull out random irrelevant shit, we may as well do it equitably.
Not a troll.
Gunner expresses a view point shared by many. To counter some of your arguments you have to remember that the FO that you are criticizing is held to a budget set by Nutting. You really can’t blame them for not entirely blowing up the roster because many of the players had low to zero trade value…Wilson, Sanchez. I think the FO should get credit for not dealing Bay in the off season and dealing him at the deadline. I disagree with your viewpoint on McClouth. He won the job based on his performance and not Duffy’s. In Doumit, are you implying that Paulino was a better choice. To say Doumit can’t catch is extremely unfair. Is he a below average defender…yes. Was this his 1st year as a starter…yes. Can we expect his defense to improve with more experience…I think there is a strong possibility that it will. And to Alvarez…yes he has been disappointing to date but man let him take the field at least before you give him the ? tag and use him as a reason to criticize NH. But to your final point…I agree that for this debate to be settled we will have to keep watching. I personally like what the FO is doing so far and am approaching the future of the Pirates with cautious optimism because I’m not sold on Nutting just yet. We will see.
Yes, a troll
“An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response1 or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.” — Wikipedia
‘Slick1’ – The Pirates have done virtually nothing since the end of the 2007 season except placate the fans into thinking that they had a bonanza 2008 June draft and built a complex in the Dominican about ten years too late.
“Virtually nothing” is trolling. They traded a couple guys last July, it was in all the papers. They made other moves too, minor by definition because we didn’t have any other major pieces at the end of 2007. “…ten years too late” is trolling. What does the current FO, on the job less than 18 months, have to do with that?
They have stood pat for both the 2008 and 2009 seasons.
Absurd. Just compare the 40 man roster from September 2007 to today. Just. Fucking. Absurd. Trolling.
In 2009, the answer is going to be Joe Kerrigan with an assist from the new 1B coach.
Where has anyone touted the new 1B coach?
They have one new infielder since the Littlefield era in Andy LaRoche.
And three new starting OF and new C’s. And again, about 17 months on the job.
MClouth finally got a chance in CF because they could no longer put up with the injuries and antics of Chris Duffy and they knew that Nate could do more than Nyjer. But now Nyjer is pencilled in for the time being as our LFer!
Non-sequitur. I’d define that for thetroll too, but I don’t want to appear condescending (condescending is when you talk down to someone).
There is a little more depth in the system, but very little.
One draft. Two offseasons, one of which was spent fending off other GMs who were trying to take NH for an easy mark. Trolling. I’d say the pitching depth is somewhere between better and much better than it was a year ago.
Aside from McCutchen and Tabata, who do we really have to look forward to?
Tabata? I thought we stood pat?
Alvarez has become quite a question mark. He looks like another of Boras’ oversold bill of goods.
I hope this bill of goods is better than A-Rod, Teixiera, Carlos Beltran, the Drews, etc., or any of those other stiffs he’s oversold. Man, Boras is like Schleprock with the ruining of the careers.
azibuck
So Wikipedia is now your ’Bible"?
Wikipedia commits more errors on a regular basis than your PBC.
More trolling
So Wikipedia is now your ’Bible"?
No, Wikipedia is where I chose to quote the definition from. Is their definition in error? Here are their references, but they probably just made them up.
References
1. ^ trolling definition from PC Magazine Retrieved on 28 May 2007.
2. ^ “What is a troll?” – Indiana University Knowledge Base
3. ^ a b Schwartz, Mattathias (2008-08-03). “The Trolls Among Us”. New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magazine/03trolls-t.html. Retrieved on 1 August 2008.
4. ^ Oxford English Dictionary Online s.v. TROLL n.(1) and TROLL v., both added in June 2006
5. ^ Usenet Newsgroup misc.invest.options 1997
6. ^ Etymology online dictionary
7. ^ a b c See Michele Tepper, “Usenet Communities and the Cultural Politics of Information” in David Porter, ed., Internet Culture (1997) at 48 (“[T]he two most notorious trollers in AFU, Ted Frank and snopes, are also two of the most consistent posters of serious research.”).
8. ^ One early reference to troll found in the Google Usenet archive was by user “Mark Miller,” directed toward the user “Tad,” on February 8, 1990, saying “Just go die in your sleep you mindless flatulent troll.” However, it is unclear if this instance represents a usage of “troll” as it is known today, or if it was simply a chance choice of epithet.
9. ^ Cecil Adams (2000-05-14). “The Straight Dope”. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html. Retrieved on 2007-08-26. “To be fair, not all trolls are slimeballs. On some message boards, veteran posters with a mischievous bent occasionally go "newbie trolling.”
10. ^ a b Identity and Deception in the Virtual Community from Massachusetts Institute of Technology
11. ^ Example of a warning to blog participants about trolls: “do not feed the trolls.” golo historians_13th’s blog. Retrieved on: April 10, 2008.
12. ^ Cox, Ana Marie (2006-12-16). “Making Mischief on the Web”. Time. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1570701,00.html. Retrieved on 30 March 2007.
13. ^ Saunders, Anne (2006-09-26). “Bass aide resigns after posing as opponent’s supporter online”. Boston Globe (Associated Press). http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2006/09/26/rep_bass_aide_posed_as_opponents_supporter_on_blogs. Retrieved on 30 March 2007.
14. ^ OSS Simple Sabotage Manual, pdf
15. ^ Wolcott, James (2006-10-08). “Political Pieties From a Post-Nasal Drip”. Vanity Fair. http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/blogs/wolcott/2006/10/political_pieti.html. Retrieved on 26 May 2008.
16. ^ Moulitsas, Markos (2008-01-09). “Dems: Ignore ‘Concern Trolls’.”. The Hill. http://thehill.com/markos-moulitsas/dems-ignore-concern-trolls-2008-01-09.html. Retrieved on 26 May 2008.
17. ^ “What is a Moderated Forum?”. conjecture corporation. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-moderated-forum.htm. Retrieved on 2009-01-25.
Alvarez A Question Mark Now?
I think some fans wont be happy til we draft a guy and hes named to the All Star team before he reaches the majors.
i think that everyone here needs to shut up for awhile. Vlad and WTM sound like smarty-pants know-it-alls, and thegunner and Rothstein come off as trolls. thegunner and Rothstein need to stop coming to this website if they just want to bitch, and Vlad and WTM need to stop being baited by people who obviously are coming from an emotional position rather than a researched position.
we’re all Pirates fans, right? let’s find a way to discus personel strategy without abusing one another. i don’t know how old any of your are, but you all come off sounding like teenagers.
by Blyleven Curve Ball on Feb 6, 2009 9:44 PM EST reply actions
I’m all for a rousing rendition of Kumbaya if anyone else is up for it.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Feb 7, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
smarty pants
If by a “smarty -pants know it all” you mean someone who actually comes to an opinion through knowledge and careful analysis, and who doesn’t just blather whatever paranoid nonsense flits through their brain (Alvarez is a flop! The Pirates haven’t won the pennant yet and therefore NH and Coonelly are incompetent buffoons!), then please, Vlad and WTM, please continue to be smarty-pants know it alls.
by brooklynpirate on Feb 7, 2009 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
Anybody know a good tailor?
If I’m going to be an official smarty-pants, I should probably have some alterations done. Wouldn’t want my fellow eggheads to get the wrong idea from me walking on my cuffs all the time.
"Don't you worry about what Wikipedia says,
We’ll change it when we get home." -Homer Simpson
Somebody (might even have been Vlad) once added a comment to Kevin McClatchy’s wikipedia entry saying he was the worst owner in sports. It was deleted within hours.
What else was there for McClatchy to do other than police his Wikipedia page? :)
by Charlie Wilmoth on Feb 7, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Amusingly enough...
…you aren’t too far off the mark. I looked at the contribution history for MLB’s registered IPs one time, and there was some pretty funny stuff. The best was an edit removing a (totally true) bit from Bud Selig’s article about how he used to be a used-car salesman.
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