Where's Andy?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 13, 2009 5:49 PM EDT
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PrintRob Neyer on the Pirates' benching of Andy LaRoche again today:
LaRoche's line in the majors: .176/.279/.261. And we're not talking about a cup of coffee; that's 382 plate appearances. Now, I know that 382 plate appearances is not an enormous sample, but the difference between LaRoche's minor- and major-league performance is enormous enough that I think we have to at least wonder, you know?
The Dodgers had him, and decided that (first) Blake DeWitt and (then) Casey Blake were better options at third base than their hot prospect with the big Triple-A stats. The Pirates, a week into LaRoche's first full (maybe) season with the club, are benching him. Maybe he's just not right, physically. That would be my guess, because I think the player who can thrive in Triple-A but can't emotionally cope with the majors is exceptionally rare (if that beast even exists).
One thing I'm fairly sure of, though: If there's really something wrong with Andy LaRoche, benching him for a game or three isn't going to fix it.
Probably not. Neyer is surely at least partly right that there have been physical issues; I think LaRoche's thumb played some role in his struggles last year. This year, though? After LaRoche's solid Spring Training, it could just be that he's had a few bad games. Everyone has them, and it's possible that LaRoche might've just had several in a row. He's only started four games, and had fifteen plate appearances.
The Pirates don't seem to be reading the situation that way, though, or they wouldn't be benching him. And they appear to be right to be concerned--when you're watching, you don't get the impression that LaRoche has had four games' worth of bad luck, you get the impression that LaRoche has forgotten how to play baseball, in a way the Pirates haven't seen since the days of the similarly promising J.J. Davis. Example:
Over these past two days, LaRoche has been flipping his glove while fielding ground balls. In other words, LaRoche started with his glove facing his body and then flipped it over to make the play. The motion made LaRoche a split-second late in getting his glove down to field the ball, enough time to give him problems. It also inadvertently caused him to pull his hands back a bit, which also throws off timing.
"I didn't even notice I was doing it," LaRoche said after his infield session. "I guess it's just one of those things that you're not even paying attention to and you don't even realize you're doing it until someone points it out to you."
It's human nature to develop bad habits that need to be corrected, and of course players do this all the time with their hitting. But the glove-flipping thing honestly strikes me as really obvious.
If what we've seen so far from LaRoche this year is what we're going to continue to see--and of course it's far from obvious that will be the case--I don't think that LaRoche can merely be dismissed as a bad player, or a guy who wasn't good enough for the majors. That just isn't consistent with the way he's looked. Instead, he looks like a player who got to the majors and wet the bed. He gets into games that matter and it appears the sequences of tasks he's supposed to complete break down, to the point where he doesn't know not to flip his glove, or to where even a routine popup becomes a grotesque misadventure. He plays as if he's frantically thinking about what he's supposed to do next, and if that's what going on, that's no way to play baseball. If you think about the series of things you have to do to tie your shoe, even that can seem difficult.
Of course, I'm speculating, and I know these types of players are extremely rare if they exist at all--the game in Class AAA, where LaRoche has been successful for years, is very similar to the one that's played in the majors. So I hold out hope that LaRoche will turn it around. Let's hope he does. It's still only been four bad games since his strong Spring Training.
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Neyer doesn’t have his facts right. The Dodgers went with DeWitt at the start of last year when LaRoche was out for hand surgery. DeWitt got off to a fast start and had an OPS around .900 by the time LaRoche was available.
I’m perfectly willing to accept the possibility that LaRoche just isn’t going to be a decent major league player, but I can’t stand this idea that he’ll start to play better by not playing. I’m also more than a little nervous that Russell thinks Vasquez is an acceptable option at 3B, which clearly isn’t true. I could be wrong, but I think LaRoche has an option left. If the Pirates don’t think he can play in the majors, send him down and bring Walker up. If they still do, let him play until they’re convinced he can’t. The worst possible course is the non-solution of jerking him in and out of the lineup.
You’re right. I’m operating under the assumption that the Pirates aren’t planning to bench LaRoche every other game indefinitely. I would like to see this resolved soon, either by LaRoche starting every day or him starting every day in Indianapolis.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 13, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
why bring up walker
when, if I’m not mistaken, the almost universal consensus is that he’s not yet ready. I am only asking – I recognize your superior knowledge of Pirate prospects. It just seems to me that bringing NW up now could very possibly be damaging, especially if he laid a giant egg.
Not Only Is Vasquez A Viable Option ...
but his major league track record is considerably more impressive than Andy’s.
Ramon Vazquez's track record:
.257/.328/.357, in more than 2000 ML PA. That’s fine for a shortstop, but well below average for a 3B.
Personally, I’d rather go with the guy who has a good chance of hitting like a starting 3B, rather than the one who has a good chance of hitting like a shortstop.
I Like Vasquez's Major League Line ...
just a little better than Lil LaRoche’s!!!
Which overlooks, as always, the most important point:
LaRoche has spent the entirety of his minor league career hitting the snot out of the ball, and all of that performance has significant predictive value. Whether you like it or not, guys who hit well in the upper minors at a young age almost always turn into productive major league players.
In contrast, pedestrian 32-year-old shortstops almost never hit like starting third basemen.
Remember Ryan Shealy?
Back in 2006, all of the Pirate faithful were clamoring for Littlefield to pluck Shealy from Denver because he was “backed up” behind Todd Helton. His AAA numbers at Colorado Springs looked great.
Not trading for Shealy was one of Littlefield’s best non-moves. He has been languishing in Omaha for the last two years. Now, there are also many of you that like Joe Koshansky for his AAA numbers. He will never be a productive major leaguer either.
Numbers mean something, but talent evaluation is a helluva lot more than numbers.
Yes, Lil LaRoche had nice minor league numbers. But after watching him play for two weeks last year, it became fairly obvious that he can be nothing more than a stopgap until we can find a true third baseman.
Will he have a good game once in awhile? Yes. But Lil LaRoche is not the answer. If I were Russell, I would have the veteran Vasquez at 3B against every RH starting pitcher, at a minimum.
To be fair, Shealy’s career was derailed at least partially by hamstring problems, which bothered him throughout 2007 and at least parts of 2008.
I don’t, personally, find Koshansky’s AAA numbers all that interesting given his hitting environment and age, so if you say he’s not impressive on a scouting level either, I have no qualm with you there.
The problem regarding LaRoche is that if the scouts thought he stunk before the trade, this is the first we’ve heard of it. Baseball America, hardly a stathead publication, consistently ranked him very highly, for example, and folks throughout baseball spoke highly of the Pirates’ haul in the Bay trade at the time. You’re crazy if you think Baseball America would have rated him the way they did if they’d seen him playing the way he has for the Pirates.
It doesn’t take some sort of brilliant scout to see that if LaRoche continues to play the way he has so far, he will not make it. We ALL see that. In fact, it’s clear that if LaRoche went down to AAA and played the way he has so far for the Pirates, he wouldn’t produce there, either. The quality of baseball there is far too good for a player who can’t make solid contact or field a popup. And WE ALL SEE THAT. So please stop acting like there this thing called “talent evaluation” that neither the Pirates nor the rest of us know anything about. We know what it is and we understand the importance of it. Whatever’s going on with LaRoche, whether it’s injuries or nerves or an early peak or something else, probably has little to do with that, and I don’t think anybody scores any points for saying that LaRoche hasn’t looked like a good MLB player since the trade. That’s as clear as day.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 14, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
"Brilliant Scout" ...
is often an oxymoron.
And there are good talent evaluators and bad talent evaluators.
Baseball America does not impress me one bit. These people are only writers who cover baseball and express an opinion. This would be like your trusting Bob Smizik or Dejan to tell you how can play and who can’t play.
They can write, even if you may not like what they write. But I would never trust their opinions about players.
Aside from his minor league track record, now that you have seen him play, please tell me one area of Lil LaRoche’s game that is above average.
Baseball America lists are, as far as I know, written with the input of either the teams themselves or from managers and scouts from other teams. Also, Kovacevic reported that immediately after the Bay trade he received a number of amazed responses from employees of other teams.
I’m sure you’ll find some reason to discredit all that information too, though.
Aside from his minor league track record, now that you have seen him play, please tell me one area of Lil LaRoche’s game that is above average.
No. I disagree with the premise of the request. Minor league numbers, when used properly, are predictive and they matter. This has been proven. We have discussed this here many times.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 15, 2009 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Charlie is correct.
The order of BA’s team top 10 lists is heavily, heavily influenced by input from the personnel on that team’s staff. If LaRoche was their #1 prospect, it’s because the Dodgers’ scouts were all touting him as such.
While we're on the subject of BA:
Every year, in addition to their lists of top prospects by team, they also poll the scouts and managers of every minor league about the best prospects in that league. Again, these are solely the opinions of professional baseball evaluators/instructors, exactly the kind of people whose opinion Gunner claims to value:
2004 South Atlantic League (A): 9th.
2004 Florida State League (A+): 16th.
2005 Florida State League (A+): 1st.
2005 Southern League (AA): 7th.
2006 Southern League (AA): 5th.
2006 Pacific Coast League (AAA): 5th.
2007 Pacific Coast League (AAA): 4th.
2008 Pacific Coast League (AAA): 9th.
These managers and scouts all really, really liked LaRoche. The quotes in his scouting report from each league are glowing, and the voters are ranking him ahead of some top talents. In the SL in 2005, for example, they placed him ahead of Brian McCann (9th), Russ Martin (10th), Scott Olsen (11th), Bobby Jenks (13th), Jonathan Broxton (14th), Rich Hill (15th), Ricky Nolasco (17th) and Elijah Dukes (20th). Plus other strong talents, like James Loney, who couldn’t even crack the top 20. And it’s not just that year. It’s like that every year, in every league where he played. The only time he didn’t make his league’s list was in 2003 in the rookie-level Pioneer League – where he signed so late that he only played in six games.
But I’m sure that all those scouts and managers were idiots, who wouldn’t recognize a player if one bit them on the ass.
BA != oracle
sometimes baseball america is wrong… check out some of the names that have appeared in the BA top 25 over the years: andy marte, dallas mcpherson, josh barfield, jeremy reed, hee seop choi, brad nelson, sean burroughs, drew henson, alex escobar, angel berroa, dee brown, chin-feng chen, gookie dawkins, pablo ozuna, ben grieve… jr house… chad hermansen!
it’s one thing to play the odds, it’s another to assume the odds are a certainty…
by Captain Easychord on Apr 15, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is assuming the odds are a certainty?
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 15, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe nobody… I just think that sometimes people get too excited about the authoritative value of prospect rankings…
by Captain Easychord on Apr 15, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Gunner is the one who appealed to that particular authority
If his argument is that “baseball people” didn’t like LaRoche, then I don’t see anything wrong with providing evidence that he’s full of crap.
They could very well be wrong about LaRoche. But even if they are, it doesn’t make his argument any less intellectually dishonest.
Vlad - Get This Straight
I didn’t say that “baseball people didn’t like LaRoche”. What I am saying is that everyone who works in and around baseball are called “baseball people” as in "he’s a good “baseball man”.
To this, I say ridiculous!
There are a lot of “baseball men” who are totally clueless.
Team Coonington may NEVER have seen Lil LaRoche play in person. They relied on a certain “baseball man” or “baseball men” and went with LaRoche in last year’s deal.
LaRoche was an important part of the deal as he was to take over 3B at PNC.
Team Coonington made a very bad decision.
So now you want Coonelly scouting players personally?
He’s not a scout. He’s a financial guy. Which is why he’s the team president, instead of the director of player development or something like that. Having him scout players would be like starting Doumit in center field.
As for the scouting attention paid to LaRoche, Dejan wrote this two weeks ago:
“By mid-January, Huntington and his staff formed a new plan, one in which his eight special assistants would identify teams that might make a match for Bay, in addition to those who already had expressed interest. Those teams became the focus of intensive scouting, majors and minors, as well as statistical analysis of performance for players as low as Class A. Key players received two or three extra looks.”
They scouted the ever-loving shit out of LaRoche.
And if you’re going to claim that the Pirates’ baseball men were just uniquely clueless about LaRoche, you need to keep in mind that you’re also saying that all those other minor league managers and scouts who spent the last five years having an Andy LaRoche love-in were equally clueless. Every last one. Do you really want to go there?
Why not?
They are obviously being proven wrong in their evaluations.
Let's take a look at the guys named as liking LaRoche:
Steve Livesey, 2004:“He didn’t look like he was new to the position. He made every play and showed the kind of reaction times you need at third base. I thought he stood out defensively.” Livesey, then the manager of the Charleston RiverDogs, has spent thirteen years in Tampa’s organization as a manager/instructor. In 2008, the team named him their Development Man of the Year.
Todd Claus, 2004:
“I really like his swing. Few swings are as flat as his. The bat is in the zone for a long time. And when he gets it, it’s backspun with good carry.”
Claus spent five seasons as a minor league manager, following an extensive career as a scout. He was Baseball America’s Minor League Manager of the Year in 2006, and was chosen to manage the World team in the Futures Game in both 2005 and 2006. He spent the next two seasons as Boston’s advance scout in the majors. They made the playoffs in both years, and won the World Series in 2007.
Tim Cossins, 2005:
“I’ve seen him make adjustments. It’s not just power. He also has some hitter in him.”
A former Pirates draft pick, Cossins spent four years as a manager in the Marlins’ system. He’s currently that organization’s catching coordinator, and has also worked as their roving hitting instructor.
John Shoemaker, 2005:
“When he comes to the plate, you can just tell that he is ready to have a good at-bat. He is a determined ballplayer, and he acts like a professional on and off the field. When I say he can hit a fastball, some players aren’t that gifted that they can hit a good fastball, but LaRoche can.”
Shoemaker has spent eighteen years as a minor league manager, all in the Dodgers’ organization, winning three league championships. He’s currently the field coordinator of the Dodgers’ new Glendale facility.
Craig Colbert, 2006
“He’s a plus defender at third base and he hits with a lot of power. You can tell by the way he carries himself that he’s comfortable out there and knows what he’s doing.”
Colbert spent seven years as a manager in the Padres’s system, then two more as bench coach for the major league team. He’s currently the advance scout for the Phillies.
Good thing we have Gunner on hand.
After all, he knows better than all of these guys. It’s a wonder no ML team has hired him to share his secret turnaround plan for the farm system yet…
Vlad, Do You Believe Everything You Read?
Dejan prints what he is told.
Stories often get fabricated after the fact.
The story about how the Pirates identified teams and players that could help them in the event that Bay was to be traded makes it sound like the Pirate brain trust pulled out every stop and exhausted every possibility, combination and permutation.
It’s easy to make up stories like this after the fact, and if Dejan wants to write what the Pirate front office spins, that’s his choice.
The W-L results will tell the story at PNC Park.
And the stat lines of the players that the Pirates draft and the results of how they are developed will tell us if the Pirates really do have “the finest front office in baseball” according to the Nutting gospel.
So, in your view...
…it’s more likely that:
a) The Pirates’ front office slacked off before the trade deadline and then expended a huge amount of time and energy afterwards fabricating a story that they had been exhaustive in their research, in a conspiracy involving lies from dozens of scouts and front office people at all levels of the organization.
than
b) Things happened exactly the way the article says they did, and the team’s scouts spent their time watching games like they were supposed to be doing, rather than playing bridge or cooking meth or picking each other’s noses or whatever “theory a)” would have them doing instead.
Your a) and b) Are Pretty Weak Alternatives...
so I’ll stick with my earlier post - it is easy to fabricate stories after the fact.
If that's not what you're saying...
…then what ARE you saying? Either they watched the games, or they didn’t.
The difference on Shealy v. Koshansky:
Shealy was being discussed as a trade target, so we would’ve had to give something up to get him (the Royals gave up two live arms, Affeldt and Denny Bautista, back when he was still a prospect).
In contrast, Koshansky was on waivers, and as such would’ve cost nothing but the waiver price. A team like us shouldn’t be trading anything of value for role-players or temps, but there’s nothing wrong with grabbing one for free.
If Shealy had been free talent, adding him would’ve been more along the lines of the Josh Phelps claim, a solid minor move that worked out well for us.
And if other people wanted us to trade for Shealy...
…what does that have to do with me? I sure didn’t see him as our future at 1B.
Shealy’s numbers at AAA didn’t look “great” after you put them in context (I could sign off on “good” or “solid”, but not great). He was playing in Colorado Springs, one of the top three or four offensive environments in the minors, and he was doing it at the age of 26. He looked like a guy who might peak at a .800-ish OPS if things broke right – which is pretty much what he turned out to be (.764 career).
Age relative to level matters. I can’t repeat that often enough. If a guy is dominating at AAA at 22, like LaRoche, he’s probably a real prospect with some development room before he hits his ceiling. Once a guy is 26 or 27, though, he’s probably pretty close to his peak.
Neyer may not have his facts right...
but the Dodgers traded FOR Casey Blake…5 days BEFORE LaRoche was traded. That tells me the Dodgers had NO intention of playing Andy much the last 2 months of the season. Which brings up the issue of why he played every day for the Pirates.
For a while the Dodgers were playing Juan Pierre, to whom they gave a $44 million contract, ahead of Matt Kemp. They also, for some reason, traded a guy who is now the Indians’ #1 prospect to get Blake. There isn’t much reason to assume their judgment means much at all.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 14, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Juan Pierre wasn't taking playing time from Matt Kemp
Outside of a few days in the beginning of the season, and at the end of the season to get Kemp some rest, he was playing everyday, either in center field or Right field.
Andre Ethier was the one losing playing time to Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones.
I was referring to 2007, when Kemp was frequently jerked around while Pierre played regularly.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 15, 2009 4:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Jerked around?
In 2007, Matt Kemp played 91 games for the Dodgers, 88 in right field, and 6 games in center field. It was known publicly that he would sit against ‘tough’ righties such as Jake Peavy.
If there was a mis-evaluation that year, it was the view that Matt Kemp couldn’t play center field, not that he was losing playing time to Juan Pierre in 2007. The Dodgers simply didn’t see Kemp as a center fielder in 2007.
If anything, Kemp was losing playing time to Andre Ethier, and Luis Gonzalez, the standard left and right fielders in 2007.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=kempma01&t=b&year=2007
Nice post Charlie!
I think you have hit the nail right on the head here. It just has to be mental with Andy LaRoche. The most telling piece of evidence to support it being mental is his defense. Based on his performance in Pittsburgh so far, one would have expected his defensive numbers in the minor leagues to be comparable to Jim Negrych’s numbers. This is not the case. LaRoche was a well-regarded defensive prospect at 3B. While hitting is harder against major league pitching as opposed to AAA, there is NOT a difference in being able to field ground balls (or pop-ups) between AAA and the majors. The fact that Andy’s defense has suddenly become so poor to me strongly indicates that he is battling his psyche right now.
pshrink?
Do the Bucs have a team psychologist? While I became very tired of that trend about 10 years ago, perhaps this is a rare instance where it would do a lot of good. I agree that nerves may be the problem as there is little other explanation for the poor performance – especially on defense – when the games matter.
Also, the glove flipping Neyer discusses sounds like a lack of attention to detail. Andy has lacked focus in the past it sounds like and we know his brother has ADD. One wonders if ADD might run in the family.
Good day.
There definitely has been something wrong with LaRoche so far this season. I’m hoping it’s just a bad couple of games like you said, but you never know. He’s definitely not a .000 ML hitter. However, is he what his numbers in the minors indicate? Probably not. He’s probably somewhere in between.
I’m hoping that Russell will play him more than 2 days in a row because sitting isn’t really going to help him get out of his rut. And like WTM said, hopefully they don’t see Vazquez as a replacement to start. If LaRoche isn’t the starting third baseman, then Walker should be. Not Vazquez.
This was definitely the worst thing that could happen for Andy, especially with all the pressure that has been put on him to produce leading up to the year. Let’s all hope that he can bounce back.
To follow up a little
Russell strikes me as falling into that trap of thinking that any veteran major leaguer is necessarily a good player. I don’t think he’d be so quick to bench LaRoche if he didn’t think Vasquez somehow was going to help the team as a starting 3B, which is absurd. He way overused guys like Michaels, Rivas, Raul Chavez and Denny Bautista last year, too, especially late in the year when it was clear none of them would return and they had younger guys who were clearly capable of sucking just as badly as the vets. I just get the feeling he’s aching to find an excuse to play Vasquez regularly. Two games is way too quickly to start benching a guy.
I agree
that if Andy isn’t the answer at 3rd than Walker is, not Vazquez. If Andy is truly not a major league player then benching him is not going to solve the problem. Either he’s a major leaguer or he’s not. If he’s not, then let Walker have the chance to prove that he is (or isn’t).
by pretty boy floyd on Apr 14, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he needs to be benched
if laroche’s problem is mental and if he’s internally treating these “important” games (ie: ones in the majors) differently from every other game he’s played in through his career, spending time in the minors isn’t going to do him any good… at least, it won’t help him get over his “OMG majors!” attitude…
it seems to me as if what he needs is a sense of belonging… he’s going to be mentally throwing up every time the ball comes near him in the bigs until he believes internally that he belongs there… and that has to come with the big club…
… but if russell throws him out there every day, laroche gets put in lots of tough situations… I think that sending andy out there in low pressure situations where he has a chance to succeed is a good way to go… the way that russell has used him so far has been kind of in line with that… he was benched against a tough pitcher (carpenter), he was benched for the home opener (presumably, a big game)… that kinda makes sense to me…
by Captain Easychord on Apr 13, 2009 7:31 PM EDT reply actions
No question, it’ll do wonders for his confidence to show him that you don’t trust him to be in any tough situations. Sitting on the bench should give him a sense of belonging, too. They could enhance it by having him sit next to the batboy.
Oh, be nice, WTM. :) I don’t know that the Captain’s suggestion is clearly the wrong way to go. In fact, I don’t think anybody knows.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 13, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I have trouble with the notion that you help a guy through mental issues by making it clear you have no confidence in him.
You might be going too far the other way
Your comment implies you agree at least somewhat that he has a mental issue. The last part of your comment is especially odd because the mental issue could be a lack of self-confidence. In that case, trying to (over?)show that you have confidence in him doesn’t work.
So I’m with Charlie (both facets of his reply) and Captain E, it’s Andy that has to show the confidence in himself. Show you can swim in the shallow end first, then we’ll put you back on the diving board. (Or some other, more appropriate metaphor that makes sense).
And I’m not saying I know any of that for sure, and I hope he plays more than not, but both Laroches do present as somewhat fragile mentally. The steep decline from his ST performance might have really rattled him. Yes, even though it was just a few games, absolutely. Getting stuck is easy. Getting unstuck is hard.
I'm with the Captain
There is a difference between confidence and trust. Trust is a belief that one person has in another’s ability. Confidence is one’s belief in his own ability.
Showing trust – which is what Wilbur proposes forcing on Andy – ain’t gonna do the trick if Andy lacks confidence. It would be counter productive.
If Andy needs support, then you throw him out there and leave him out there. However, if – as many on this board including myself are speculating – the problem is a lack of confidence/nerves, then Andy needs to be coddled and put in situations to succeed until he gets the nerves out of his head and simply plays the game.
Good day.
I’m with azibuck and uncle nate here on the whole self-perception vs. external confidence thing… it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of you if your own self perceptions are poor… consider an anorexic… everyone she knows can tell her that she’s wonderfully thin, but she’s not going to eat until she’s comfortable with herself…
external support can be helpful for sure… the team can show confidence in andy simply by keeping him on the roster (alternatively, consider what confidence a demotion would demonstrate)… maybe andy sits in the dugout and sees pitchers who were completely hittable at AAA having success in the majors and THAT makes him believe that he can be a major league hitter…
but the point here isn’t to diagnose exactly what is wrong and exactly how to fix it… we’re all just guessing at what’s wrong and shooting from the hip re: how to fix it… the point is that having an ersatz platoon at third where vazquez starts against the carpenters, lincecums and santanas of the world may not be such a bad idea for the time being…
by Captain Easychord on Apr 14, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
i feel compelled to agree.
and what’s all this faddle about vasquez? lest andy gets mauled in wood chipper, vasquez should see no playing time. i hope no one thinks he’s an option because he gives us a better chance to win at this moment. we shouldn’t be concerned with winning at this moment. we’re not going to, so why try to the detriment of 2010? either andy will hit or he won’t. let’s find out now.
by SamTheButcher on Apr 14, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
well hell, this post didn’t go where i thought it would. it was supposed to be under WTMs post. pardon me.
by SamTheButcher on Apr 14, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Pearce #2
I agree with most of these comments but if Andy is going to be the 3rd baseman of the future (Alvarez to 1st), then he needs to be able to work through this problem and should have the backing of his coach, not the schlacking of the coach. It’s not like this team is going to the playoffs this year and if they did, shouldn’t he get the experience for those future playoff years. Let him play. This year means nothing…
I wonder
I can’t help but wonder what Dave LaRoche did to these guys; both seem to be very fragile. Adam can’t hit in April or May, which for the Pirates are when games matter most. Andy cannot hit or field in the majors period. Quite a pattern
Games in April or May are no more important than games in September. If we are assuming that the second half is unimportant because the Pirates will be out of contention, we can just assume that the first half is unimportant as well.
Pittsburgh Lumber Co.
http://mvn.com/pittsburghlumberco
The games in April and May are more important because of the circumstances. After 16 years of losing a bad start will bury this team and reinforce the losing attitude
Huh?
A loss is a loss. And a good opening week or not, this is still a 90-loss team on the merits.
A winning attitude isn’t going to do jack shit, when it’s stacked up against a pure lack of talent.
Oh, Vlad... ~sigh~
Go ahead, be the wet blanket, so that when we’re at or near .500 at the end of May, and the Pirates go into their invariable tailspin to suck the life out of us for the rest of the summer…
um…
Never mind.
"Gimme an 'F' ! " - Country Joe MacDonald
by cocktailsfor2 on Apr 14, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't get me wrong:
I love being over .500, for however long it lasts. But I resent the implication that games are meaningless if they don’t have playoff implications. If I buy a ticket, I want my team to win. That’s all the “meaning” you should ever need.
I'm OK with sitting him today.
The home opener, in front of a capacity crowd, is a pretty bad place to try and work your way out of a mental block. But if he keeps losing starts to V, it’ll be a huge mistake.
attention deficit disorder
i seem to remember adam laroche talking about how his career changed (coincidentally around his age 25 season) once he was diagnosed and began taking medication.
any chance it runs in the family? i have absolutely zero medical credibility but it seems to me that two brothers would be more likely to share it than say, andy laroche and the queen of sheba. not exactly an easy subject to broach but i wonder if the pirates docs ever looked into it.
So Confused
Why did Andy LaRoche try to wave me into the Full Service pump today at the Get Go? Shouldn’t he have been at the home opener? Or is this a career change?
Mental Problem
I agree that whatever issue Andy is having is psychological and that the only cure for the problem is playing time and belief in his ability, so benching him would then be the worst possible thing that JR can do. Look at it this way, every time LaRoche has been in the bigs the experience has been bad which, if I was Andy, make me think what is wrong with me? So, he is making a connection to playing with the big club and failure. Now, since every step of the way he has managers and GMs telling him he is not a major leaguer through their actions it makes the problem exponentially worse.
If my hypothesis is correct then the best thing to do is to just throw Andy to the wolves until he finds success. Once that happens I think he will be good to go.
"throw Andy to the wolves until he finds success"
Or, you know, gets mauled to death.
We’re exactly 10 days into the season and haven’t even played %5 of our games. Laroche has a known back issue. He should play wherever he’s assigned, unless that assignment should be the DL. It’s way too early for this level of concern.
by chicos_pants on Apr 14, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe...
the Pirates just need to stick him in the lineup for an extended period,and let him play his way out of it the old-fashioned way. If he can. If not,they’ll likely know if he can be a successful MLB player.
I believe it was Jim Leyland who said,“this is the Major Leagues,sooner or later you have to produce.” Well,give Andy LaRoche that opportunity if you think(thought?)he’s such a great prospect,and find out once and for all.
agreed
I agree, the point I was trying to make is that early season games are the only ones that have a bit of importance attached to them for this team under its current circumstances. Adam LaRoche has proven that he does not fare well in those games, and only starts hitting when the Pirates fate has been determined. Yes I know that that fate was already determined before the season began, but I also think that there is a sense around the club that they have to start hot, and once losses mount and they have fulfilled their expected destiny there is no pressure, other than keeping a job.
The JJ Davis analogy is apt
With Davis, the talent was there. But…
I would send LaRoche out to third till he he arrived at the place he needed to go and thrived as a major leaguer or till he proved that he won’t make it, ever.
Sometimes this strategy works. For example: Mike Schmidt.
Steve Z
Maybe it's my imagination...
but wasn’t most of Andy’s BIG spring training…accomplished in the first few weeks of ST. I seem to remember him hitting around .500 the first two weeks or so…and ended up around .333. That means there was a decent stretch where he hit below .300. Again…if spring numbers mean nothing…shouldn’t we also take Andy’s spring with a grain of salt.
Also…IIRC…the back problems came up EARLY in ST. And we were told why (failure to perform prescribed maintenance therapy). And apparently…the problem has not gone away. If he’s injured…put him on the DL…otherwise…quit using it as an excuse for him performing poorly. The back got blamed for his bad ML numbers in 2007…the thumb in 2008…now it looks like the back again is being blamed (or at least given as a reason for benching) in 2009. So do we take the injuries into account EVERY season…and wait another couple of years to see if he matches his minor league numbers??
Spring numbers mean nothing.
Spring qualitative evaluations from scouts/coaches, in contrast, are meaningful. And pretty much everybody in the organization raved about the way he played in the spring.
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