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PECOTA: Bucs Will Finish Ahead of Astros

Accounting for the way the two teams have played so far, PECOTA now projects the Pirates will win 70 games and finish well ahead of the Astros, who are now 7-12. PECOTA originally projected the Pirates would finish last.

All that might sound obvious to some of you, but I try not to take these things for granted. The way the season has gone so far has made me believe a lot more in several players (Zach Duke, Andy LaRoche, Nyjer Morgan, Adam LaRoche), though, and there have also been big, and apparently legitimate, improvements in the quality of both the pitching and the defense. Although those improvements aren't totally sustainable, it seems that when this team wins, they're usually winning on merit and not winning just because the other team lost, if that makes any sense. The Pirates have played an awful lot of games in the past decade in which both teams played badly and the Pirates won because they were less bad. That has rarely been the case this season.

I'll go ahead and agree with PECOTA about the Bucs winning 70 games, because Ryan Doumit will miss a couple months and because the Pirates are likely to take a step backward after their annual batch of midseason trades. But I'm more excited to watch this team than any edition of the Pirates in recent memory. The midseason doldrums, which some years come as early as April 10 or so, haven't set in for me yet at all.

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Perry Hill Speaks Out

Oct 2009 by Charlie - 64 comments

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How can they adjust ytheir predictions?

Everyone gets the opportunity to make certain predictions before the season starts, just because you make a terrible prediction doesn’t mean you get to adjust it. Maybe they should wait until game 140 so they can further ajust their predictions.

I don’t buy anything these media outlets say anyway.

by Piratefan13 on Apr 27, 2009 2:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t understand your logic. BP published projections at the beginning of the season, and now they’re releasing new projections based on the additional information from the first 20 games.

by shayborg on Apr 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They constantly adjust their predictions; they'd be silly not to.

They don’t adjust their preseason predictions midseason; those predictions remain. However, as the season progresses they have more information, so they release their “playoff odds report.” For this report, they’d be foolish not to use all the data available to them. For this, they use a weighted average of their own predictions coupled with the actual results to date. As the season progresses the actual results carry more weight while their own preseason predictions carry less weight. At this point the actual season carries very, very little weight, but apparently enough to bump the Buccos ahead of the Astros.

As for their preseason predictions, while it certainly has its flaws, PECOTA stands up favorably with any projection system out there (including Vegas). If you understand how it works then feel free to criticize it; there is room for criticism and certain knowledgeable experts have done so (Tom Tango for one). However, if you don’t understand how ti works then you aren’t really in a position to bash it.

by mickeyg13 on Apr 27, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it's not like they're deleting the old projection from the record.

They just update constantly to use the best available information (which is generally the most recent).

by Vlad on Apr 28, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice!

For some reason, this reminds me of when Jim Cramer bumped the Bluth company from "Don’t buy!" up to a "Risky!" on Arrested Development.

There's no crying in baseball...

by phillybucco on Apr 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha, that was almost my exact thought — I was remembering the first upgrade, from Sell to Don’t Buy…

by shayborg on Apr 27, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah

forgot about that, hahaha

There's no crying in baseball...

by phillybucco on Apr 27, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RIS-KY! RIS-KY! RIS-KY!

by Charlie on Apr 27, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whoa, it’s official now; we can optimistic.

charity standing orders

by BadMaafala on Apr 27, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

After 18 games last year

the Bucs were 7-11 and went 60-84 the rest of the way to finish at 67-95. If we finish this season with 70 wins we’ll go 59-85 from here on out so in effect Pecota is saying that the Pirates are a tiny bit worse now than they were a year ago at this time.

I agree that it may be agianst the odds that we’ll have a winning season this year, but it seems to me that enough good things have happened that is now likely that we will win more games than we did last year from this point of the season on.

by WestCoastBuc on Apr 27, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For the love of God……you stat geeks amaZe me……..let’s just play the games.

by Hitman Easler on Apr 27, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

YAY!

Second to last place! I think we’ll do a little better than that. I also think 80+ isn’t a stretch.

"The team that scores the most points wins."
John Madden
(Master of the obvious)

by PixburghArn on Apr 27, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The Bucs are 5th in Runs Scored and 1st in the NL in Runs Allowed. I don’t think this is the NL’s #1 pitching staff, but can at least be average right?

I’m mostly excited that our Buccos are scoring a decent number of runs this year. I hope they can continue to put up near league average runs/per game. That’ll give us a chance to stay above/near .500 with Doumit out. Hey, they finished 9th out of 16 last year in runs scored. I feared they would be horrible at the beginning of the year, but now I believe our line up, with improvements from Nyjer, Andy and a healthy Freddy, can at least repeat that 9th place finish in runs scored if not better.

by Chad Bahamas on Apr 27, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

First in defensive efficiency!?!

This would make us the new Tampa Bay Rays!

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204024

Just kidding on that one folks. Still, how predictive is defensive efficiency through just 18 games? I hope this improvement is real.

by Chad Bahamas on Apr 27, 2009 4:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm still having wrapping my mind around our apparently

profound defensive improvement. Moss>Nady? Maybe, but not profoundly, I would think. Nyjmo > Bay. Probably. LaRoche > Bautista. Doubt it. Everyone else is the same (albeit Jack was out a lot in the early going last year, and his replacements were dreadful).

I guess it’s just a lot of little improvements all around the diamond. And maybe b/c the pitchers aren’t giveing up rocket shots all over the filed. Anyone whos actually watched the games (I’m in Phoenix) have any insight???

by Bwillits on Apr 27, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our fundamentals look light-years ahead of where they were last year…. that might be one thing.

I’m also starting to think Kerrigan might simply be a better pitching coach than our last few… our pitchers seem to be more prepared, and unlike last year, they seem to be on the same page as the catchers most of the time.

There's no crying in baseball...

by phillybucco on Apr 27, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...

Moss>Nady; yes, Nyjmo > Bay, much better. Laroche > Batista, significant improvemnent. Jack and Freddy 09 > Jack and Freddy 08; better and much better. That’s an improvement in almost every position. If you can’t tell the difference between this team and last years when we couldn’t even throw to the right base you need to go look out some old footage. This is a much, much better defensive team.

by Slick1 on Apr 27, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry...

I missed the comment about not getting to see many games. It is a lot of little things that can be credited to Perry Hill.

by Slick1 on Apr 27, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No worries

The only live game I saw last year (just b/f Nady deal), I thought Bay got good jumps (he made a long run to the notch for a catch); Nady almost had an outfield assist; and Jack made a great play in 3d base hole to start a double play. Nate did play really shallow, but never got burned. I guess I got lucky. (except Duke lost as buleets were hit all over the place).

thanks,b

by Bwillits on Apr 27, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to be very hesitant about short-term, anecdotal observations. Of course a team will look better while it’s going 11-7 than when it’s going 67-95. But I could swear I just don’t see the sort of bungling in the field that I saw last year, or the year before or the year before that, for that matter. They really do look like a different team.

by WTM on Apr 27, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree

I’m with Wilbur. Although I’ve tried to avoid irrational exuberance, they really do look like a different team. My wife was watching one of the Marlins games with me, and made the same comment. They look like they belong on the same field as every team they have played to date, and that in itself is progress.

by RichieHebner on Apr 27, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a true-talent sense...

…LaRoche is probably a significant upgrade on Bautista, although Andy’s early-season struggles probably make it a push on actual performance so far. Bautista grades out at something like a -10 at 3B per UZR.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LaRoche's potential emergence

as an above average major leaguer is huge, I think. I’ve never looked up his defensive stats b/c, frankly, I’m too lazy. But he appears to be much more athletic than I would have thougth based on the small smple size of mlb.com highlights I’ve seen.

by Bwillits on Apr 27, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beyond the observations others have made

I think there is some credence to the not giving up as many “rocket shots.” If the pitchers are hitting their spots, mostly low, and pitching in better counts et cetera, it changes the character of many of the balls in play or at least I believe.

by ol Pete on Apr 27, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep.

I had a feeling the Astros would be worse than the Pirates this year. Unless of course they make some of those mid-season trades that makes the team slightly better for the second half, but costs them a lot of their prospects.

by IAPiratesFan on Apr 27, 2009 4:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

They don't have many prospects left to trade.

Towles, Bogusevic, Norris, some 2008 picks that can’t be traded, and a bunch of stuff nobody would want.

by Vlad on Apr 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t put it past them, though. They already traded Drew Sutton for Keppinger.

by Charlie on Apr 27, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ed Wade

Never underestimate his ineptitude…

There's no crying in baseball...

by phillybucco on Apr 27, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ed Wade is a plague

he has single handedly got rid of all there young talent. as soon as he got Houston to Sutton. I remember (i live in TX) the first move he did was trade there CF of the future (Josh Anderson) for some old scrubs that don’t play anymore. Anderson is now starting for Detroit and doing quite well while the astros are still stuck with Bourne, a 200 hitter at best. The Astros are in such denial of their need to rebuild. They are going to suck for sometime.

10 Quality Starts in a row/Aug. 08 - BUT now we can't hit:(

by .500 Please on Apr 27, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I'm not saying that they won't want to do it.

I just think the amount of help they can bring back is limited, even if they sell off everything that isn’t nailed down. Towles’s stock is way down, Bogusevic may not hit for enough power to be a regular, and it’s probably 50/50 whether Norris can stay in the rotation.

Keppinger’s a nice complementary part, but he was only a difference-maker for them because of the awful bind they got themselves into at 3B.

by Vlad on Apr 28, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

5 year plan

Though it has been great so far, I think that it is too early to tell how this team will do over the entire year. Before the season started, most, if not all (myself included) certainly didn’t give this team a snowball in hell to do anything. So it is good to see that it is only PECOTA that has changed it’s tune :>) Nevertheless, if Freddy can keep on hitting this way, he will be gone at the All Star break. If management doesn’t want to or can’t afford to sign LaRoche to a new contract, he will be gone by the All Star break. That is the right side of the infield, of which, the Pirates can not replace with it’s current players, at least with the same cohesiveness and experience. Throw in Jack and now what. I have to go back to our original estimates of finishing last, with some great pickups from the aforementioned trades for the winning seasons down the road (5 year plan sitll intact). Good day, from CA.

by long4willie on Apr 27, 2009 5:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To Paraphrase James Carville ...

It’s the starting pitching, stupid.

It’s nothing more than the performance of the starting pitching, and if they can keep it up anywhere near close to the first 18 games, the Pirates will contend for the Central Division or, at least, a wild card berth.

Regardless of the April performance of Adam LaRoche, the unexpected play of Nyjer Morgan and the surprising performance of the bench and backups as position players have been injured, the Pirates W-L performance to date can be solely attributed to starting pitching.

There are two old baseball expressions:

1) Pitching is at least 90% of the game.

2) Good pitching will stop good hitting.

We are witnessing this so far with the 2009 Pirates, and I would have to say that a good bit of credit must be directed toward Kerrigan. If the Pirate starters stay healthy and continue to gain confidence, strange things could happen.

by thegunner on Apr 27, 2009 7:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm feeling you gunner

The pitching is the most dramatic change from a year ago at this time. If they can keep it going good things will happen, if not, then they MAY win 50%.

by Pensburgh Pirates on Apr 27, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching is at least 90% of the game.

“Coulda fooled us.”

— 1984 Pirates

by WTM on Apr 27, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't You Remember 1984?

George Orwell would have won 20 games that year if he hadn’t caught the swine flu when they sent him down to Kinston on that rehab assignment.

by thegunner on Apr 28, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So regardless of the various positive offensive surprises...

…it’s all on the pitching?

If you cross off defense as well, I guess nobody has any choice but to agree with that.

by Vlad on Apr 28, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's right, Vlad

In the end, it all comes down to pitching.

by thegunner on Apr 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tyler Yates thinks otherwise

“Look if you guys cant muster up 6 runs in the ninth then I’m not sure what we’re doing here. I’m sure nobody else has ever made a mistake right?.”

McLouth is The Trouth

by GTrain on Apr 28, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you never score any runs...

…you’ll never win any games, no matter how good your pitching is. You can shut ‘em out until doomsday, and it’ll still mean just another extra inning.

Meanwhile, teams win 15-12 games all the time.

by Vlad on Apr 28, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is your definition of "all the time"?

You usually like to throw around statistics to jnustify your positions.

Would “all the time” be 50%, 73% or maybe around 3 or 4%?

by thegunner on Apr 28, 2009 5:47 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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