Q+A: Who's the Best Athlete in Pirates History?

by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 7, 2009 4:15 AM EDT

I did a little Q+A at But The Game Is On, for which I was asked a very interesting question: is Andrew McCutchen the best athlete in the history of the Pirates organization? I said no and rattled off some names, including those of several players who also played other sports at a high level: Nyjer Morgan, Vic Janowicz, Akili Smith, Chris Young. I'm hardly the best person to answer that question, though--some of you know far more about Pirates history than I. So I put the question to you--what do you think?

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blast from the past

i would throw dick groat and dave parker’s names into the discussion. groat was an outstanding basketball player at duke, winning player of the year honors in ’52 and playing a year in the nba before going to baseball. unfortunately, i never saw him play.

parker was a big-time football prospect in high school before hurting his knee squashing any chance he had of gettting a scholarship to a big school. i did see parker play, and the guy was a monster.

by trev.stair on Apr 7, 2009 7:03 AM EDT reply actions

I second what trev. stair says

about Dick Groat and Dave Parker. My dad always mentions them when having similar discussions.

If you’re going to mention guys like Parker and Andrew McCutchen who went from HS to pro baseball, I would throw Andy Van Slyke into the mix. I remember reading years ago how talented he was at many sports he tried growing up, especially basketball.

I think Charlie is spot on mentioning the names of Vic Janowicz, Akili Smith and Chris Young, who all played different college sports at a high level.

by patthatt on Apr 7, 2009 9:16 AM EDT reply actions

I saw Groat play

It was near the end of his career, but I’m pretty sure even in his best days as an athlete a SS like Maury Wills would’ve eaten him for lunch. Groat played college BB in its segregated days.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/7829/index.htm

And Parker was always sort of lumbering to me. No one ever suggested he was graceful.

Best athlete means something different than a 2 sport athlete. (Though sometimes it could be both — Dave Winfield comes to mind.)

For me, it’s gotta be Clemente. If you read the book about him, he still had a 30" waist at age 38. Never lost or gained an ounce (except for when he had malaria), and played most of his career with a busted back. And his picture should be in the dictionary next to the word “graceful” (in the field – he ran to 1B like a windmill). He could have been a great soccer player too. If you’ve seen pictures of him climbing the outfield wall to pull back a HR, or stopping on a dime a step after hitting 1B at full speed, or spinning 270 degrees to throw to 3B in the ’71 Series, my case is made.

by WstCstBucco on Apr 7, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions

I thought about Groat. Parker never occurred to me, because I only ever saw him play in the late ’80s, when he was fat.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 7, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

If you're going relative-to-peers...

…it’s tough to pick against Honus Wagner. Physically, he was just so far ahead of everyone else playing baseball at the time.

I went to college at Duke, and I always liked seeing Groat’s jersey up there in the rafters at Cameron.

I had no idea that Akili Smith ever played pro baseball, much less with us.

by Vlad on Apr 7, 2009 9:33 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah, if it’s relative to peers, it’s probably got to be Wagner. He was really a man among boys.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 7, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Rick Rhoden was known as a phenomenal athlete who excelled at multiple sports. He was also a scratch golfer who has dominated the celebrity pro am tour and qualified for the US Senior Open.

In addition to be the greatest baseball player ever to live, Barry Bonds was also a 3 sport star in high school. He’s also accomplished in martial arts.

Dick Groat certainly deserves some love too.

by chicos_pants on Apr 7, 2009 10:18 AM EDT reply actions

Rhoden hit very well for a pitcher, too.

Career .238 BA, 9 career HR, three Silver Slugger awards.

by Vlad on Apr 7, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions

all the more remarkable because of his childhood injury

http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Rick_Rhoden

My memory said polio, but it was an injury that resulted in polio-like symptoms. One of his legs was definitely a little mishapen.

by mocasdad on Apr 7, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

Barry Bonds — a better athlete due to better chemistry.

by WstCstBucco on Apr 7, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Bonds is probably the best answer. The power, the speed, the hand-eye coordination… he was really hard to top.

by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 7, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Always a bad idea to disagree with Charlie

But on this issue I got to.

Look at the 37 year old Clemente in the video of the 1971 World Series. At that time, guys were all slowing down at 37 — Mazeroski was 35 in that Series and barely played. But not Clemente. Hitting, running and throwing like a 21 year old Olympic decathalete in each and every game.

Now look at Bonds in 2002. A truly great offensive year. But he was already a liability in LF (Bonds last gold glove was in 1998, Clemente won his last as a 38 year old in 1972, a few months before his death).

And by 2001 Bonds moved like the giant bronze robot in the movie Jason and the Argonauts.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2770441472/tt0057197

An amazing specimen (thanks to illegal steroids) but hardly the athlete that Clemente was his whole life.

by WstCstBucco on Apr 7, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Bonds was an amazing specimen before the steroids.

It was just a different type of amazing specimen. I mean, in 1992, he was a Gold Glove defender with 30 HR power, 40 SB speed, a .300+ average, and twice as many BB as K. With the exception of a throwing arm, that’s the complete package right there, without any steroids in the mix at all.

by Vlad on Apr 8, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions

What do you guys think of these predictions?
http://fanzak.com/fzrants/NL_Playoff_and_Award_Predictions

by bigcat23 on Apr 7, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions

Mostly plausible.

I don’t think Maybin’s going to hit enough to win unless it’s a down year, though.

by Vlad on Apr 7, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions

I don't think

Hanley will win the MVP. He may put up MVP numbers but I’m sure there will be someone on a playoff team (e.g. a Phillie or Cub) that gets voted.

Jason
The Hanging Curve

by poorboywilly on Apr 7, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Jim Thorpe's career OPS+:

99. Just sayin’ it’s a tough game to play well, even for a great athlete.

Speaking of which … I had some time to kill on a college campus one day and wound up in the library. I spent maybe an hour reading a book about the game between Thorpe’s Carlisle football team and undefeated Army, led by a tough SOB named Dwight Eisenhower. The smaller but faster Indians kicked the stuffing out of the Black Knights. According to the book, Eisenhower became so despondent over that game and a subsequent injury that he went home and briefly considered quitting West Point.

Think about that one awhile.

by bucdaddy on Apr 7, 2009 11:37 AM EDT reply actions

Here's the citation for anyone interested:

CARLISLE VS. ARMY: Jim Thorpe, Dwight Eisenhower, Pop Warner and the Forgotten Story of Football’s Greatest Battle
Lars Anderson
Random House Trade Paperbacks
Sports/History
Hardcover: 9781400066001

Omar Bradley played for that Army team as well. It’s basically the West Point class that won World War II.

by bucdaddy on Apr 7, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions

Lars Anderson?

Not just a first baseman, but a writer too? Talk about a two-way threat!

by Vlad on Apr 7, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions

honorable mention

for Dave Ricketts

http://livesite.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailycourier/news/uniontown/s_577468.html

by mocasdad on Apr 7, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions

another vote for Clemente

I had forgotten about Groat, and Wagner probably was miles ahead of anyone else at the time, so . Parker loses points for smoking in uniform, and Barry Bonds loses points for being a jerk.

in a recent P-G article listing recent 1st round draft picks, the 1994 #1 pick Mark Farris was apparently the QB at Texas A&M after not succeeding in baseball…. does that count?

by gonfalon on Apr 7, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions

“so they also get my vote”

by gonfalon on Apr 7, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions

Mark Farris

put up some pretty good numbers at Texas A&M’s QB from 2000-2002.

Akili Smith was our 7th round draft choice in 1993 and played three seasons for us in the lower minors.

Mark Johnson-the first baseman for a while in the mid-90s-was a solid QB at Dartmouth in the late ’80s.

Joe Bauserman-our 2004 4th rounder-played in the low minors for 3 seasons as a pitcher before quitting and going to Ohio State as a QB. I don’t think he’ll ever get much playing time with Pryor running the show the next few years.

Can anyone think of any other Pirates who played college football?

by patthatt on Apr 8, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions