Smizik: Monroe deserves his chance in RF
Hey everybody. I know I'm going to catch some flak for posting this because I have been wanting Craig Monroe, or really anybody else, to get some starts in RF over putrid Brandon Moss for over two weeks now and most people on here don't agree with me, but I really don't care anymore. Here's a piece by Post-Gazette sportswriter Bob Smizik about giving Monroe a chance to start in right field with Moss' struggles persisting. Smizik basically repeats everything that I have been saying for two weeks now. Enjoy.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Smizik is a noted idiot
You don’t want to be lumped with him, do you?
Well, how long does he continue to run him out there? What does his average has to get down to until JR finally realizes that he isn’t doing anything? .100? .050? I mean, c’mon man, seriously! Look, I understand that the Pirates want this guy to be their starting RF for a long time to come. That’s why they traded for him. I get it, and maybe he will….we don’t know. But RIGHT NOW, he is dreadful and he’s pressing. He needs to sit for a couple days and get his head right. He’s struggling bad enough as it is, and when you start thinking too much instead of just hitting, it only gets worse. He’s swinging at every first or second pitch and being very undisciplined in just trying to get a hit. Let him sit out a couple days, spend some time with coach Long (hitting coach), and try to get some things corrected while receiving a mental break.
If you're just talking about a day off to clear his head...
…that’s not a bad idea. But he should be right back out there after that one day.
He knows what he has to do, and the uncertainty about the status of his job is probably a large part of why he’s pressing and chasing bad stuff. If we relegate him to the bench in favor of a Hinske or a Monroe, we’ll run the risk of turning a bad two weeks into a lost season, and we really need to get a good look at him this year to know what we want to do in our OF corners in 2010.
It's, in favor of Hinske or Monroe...
Not “a Hinske or a Monroe”, as if we had more than one of each.
I mean yeah, if only we had a few more Monroes…
There are lots of Monroes out there.
I went to school with three or four, and like Craig, none of them should be starting over Moss.
I cannot stand lumberco
How is this an argument? Why should we be playing Monroe over Moss?? The guy has never done a thing. Monroe stinks. Moss is a solid prospect as is Young. I think you can, and I have tried somewhat, to argue that Young should get some starts.
but Monroe?? Please. Lets be real about this. Thats just a waste of our time.
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
The question wasn't whether you wanted to be dumped in with Russell or Huntingdon.
Just whether you wanted to be coupled with Smizik.
Don't post complete items.
An excerpt of a couple of grafs with a link to the piece is fine, but anything beyond that is stealing, IMO.
I can tell you how to link stuff, if you don’t know and would like the help.
Not a problem.
If you want to link to a piece, you can do either of these things:
1) Use the site interface. Click on the symbol that looks like a chain. It’s ask you for the URL, and then ask you for any text that you’d like to have under the link (I usually use the site and/or the author here).
2) Use raw HTML. To embed a link, type {a href="URL"}Link text goes here{/a}, except with angle brackets (the ones that look like triangles) instead of the curly brackets I used.
Don’t get discouraged. It looks tricky at first, but it gets easier once you’ve done it a couple of times.
also
when quoting, you can use
{blockquote}some text you want to quote{/blockquote}
but replace the curly braces with greater than/less than signs (aka angle brackets) and you’ll get this
some text you want to quote
Now, as to the piece itself:
Russell is playing Moss because he’s trying to maximize the team’s future value (by developing Moss into a productive ML-er), rather than the team’s current record. Which is exactly what a rebuilding squad should do.
As the old saying goes, you can’t sit your way out of a slump. You have to hit your way out.
Look, I’m not here to argue. I’ve done enough of that. I’m just simply going to say that this team has a chance to be a winning team this year with the pitching that we’ve gotten (if it can continue). The pitchers have held the other team to 3-5 runs for the most part this year, but there hasn’t been any offense. Yes, it’s still a rebuilding team, but if our offense can back our starting pitching, we can be a decent ball blub. Just look at our first 18 games when we were 11-7. We had offense that was backing up our pitching, and we were winning. Ever since we left San Diego, the bats have been dead. Yes, the entire offense has been terrible the past 2-3 days, but Moss’ struggles have been there since opening day. You can’t tell me that the Pirates shouldn’t have at least given Monroe a start since his last start against the Brewers. Just look at his stats in the piece. They don’t lie. I don’t really care if it’s Monroe, Hinske, or Delwyn Young, Moss needs to come out for a few games because he hasn’t brought anything to our lineup all year. He’s an automatic out right now, and we are in dire need of an offensive spark. Monroe has provided that spark every time he has started. Am I saying that he is going to go 3 for 4 every night with 2 HRs? Of course not, but has shown that he will drive in runs and that he can hit for power.
His stats don't lie...
…in that they accurately represent what he’s done so far this year. The problem is that they don’t necessarily represent what he’d do if given more playing time in the future. He’s played pretty well in a handful of games this year, and looked good in spring training. He was also flailingly helpless in all of 2007 and 2008, and mediocre in the two years before that. All of those games count, too.
That's my point
He’s hitting well RIGHT NOW so put him in there for a couple games. Let him hit while he’s hot. I’m not saying play him all year, and clearly that’s not going to be the case, but while Moss is struggling (read my post above), let him start for a few days and see what happens. It can’t be any worse than Moss. If nothing happens, then fine. If he continues to hit, great. They have to try something different though, even if it’s just for a couple days, because Moss looks completely lost at the plate right now. The definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Posting the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is clearly totally sane, however.
by Charlie Wilmoth on May 4, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Responding to trolls over and over, though….
I'd rather be dead than singing "Satisfaction" at forty-five. -- M. Jagger
by cocktailsfor2 on May 5, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Even a perennial .300 hitter will fail the majority of the time.
That’s just the nature of baseball. It’s not insane to stick with a guy just because he’s had a couple of 0-for-4s.
The potential downside here is that Monroe DOES hit well for another game or two, and then he ends up stealing semi-regular PT in RF through the end of June, performing at his usual level of blah and taking time away from the guys who should really be getting it. I wouldn’t want to run that risk, just for the chance to maybe steal an extra game against the Brewers in what’s probably going to be a 90-loss season anyway.
Interesting factoid
Brandon Moss, 2009. Games with 3+ AB and no hits:
May 3: 0-3
April 29: 0-4
April 21: 0-4
April 9: 0-3
That’s it. Four collars. If you use PA instead of AB, it goes up to five, since he also had an 0-2 with 2 BB on April 22..
A relevant excerpt from an earlier Smizik piece:
Ward got the call to join the Pirates. He’s an intriguing guy. Anyone who can put the ball in the Allegheny River at PNC Park is worth a look. But Ward is not a prospect. He’ll be 29 next month and the Pirates are his third major-league stop. He batted .183 last season with Los Angeles. If by some chance he does the job for the Pirates, so what? He’ll be gone after the season, just like Reggie Sanders was last year.
What the Pirates need are young players on the cusp of stardom, not ones looking back at it or ones who never knew it. They need another Barry Bonds, another Bobby Bonilla, players they drafted and developed and who led them to championships.
We’re not talking about the Bonds of today, the player who has become one of the greatest in baseball history. We’re talking about the Bonds and Bonilla of 1986, their first years with the Pirates when they had the look of hitters about them and when the organization felt confident enough in them to play them every day. -Smizik, May 13, 2004
Everything that he said about Ward in that piece applies to Morgan today.
Patience, patience, patience...
I worked a summer job in Morgantown in 1987 and went to a ton of games that year. I remember going to a few in which Leyland actually didn’t start Bonds and Van Slyke because there was a lefty on the mound. Guys like Rambo Diaz, R.J. Reynolds, Terry Harper? etc. were in there instead.
It takes time to build a postseason caliber team, especially when it has to be done with virtually no foundation after McClatchy/Bonifay/Creech/Littlefield et al.
I’d like to think we have a few interesting pieces-McClouth, Doumit, the LaRoche brothers?, and a few pitchers who might still be useful in a few years when we really hope to contend. We have some prospects like A. McCutchen, Pedro Alvarez and a few others who might be big players for us come 2011/12 as well.
But we still need more pieces the next couple of years through the draft, Latin America, Asia?, and key trrades to find more guys we can believe will take us to the Promised Land.
I think we have the baseball people in place to find great players as #1 picks like Bonds, and undrafted players like Bobby Bonilla.
I think you could make a list of points that absolutely can’t penetrate a lot of fans.
— Small sample sizes matter. You can go on until you’re blue in the face, but there are still going to be fans who scream for a player to be handed a regular job because he goes 3-4 one day. Monroe has had two good games against bad, and in one case injured, pitchers. Outside of those two games, he’s 3-20 with 8 Ks and no XBHs.
— Past performance matters. Even if his best years Monroe was a below average hitter for a corner outfielder, and he’s been terrible the last two years. His career has followed the classic pattern of a player with limited talent and a short shelf life who had peak years at ages 27-28 and then went quickly downhill. He’s supposedly hot now yet his OBP is still only .323. What’s it going to drop to when he’s not hot? But, hey, he had two good games against bad pitchers, so none of that matters!
— Many players will struggle for a while, sometimes quite a while, before getting acclimated to the majors, but a lot of fans think 50 ABs is all you need to learn about a player. Freddy Sanchez’ first 400 major league ABs were significantly worse than the 360 or so ABs Moss has had so far. McLouth struggled badly for his first 500 or so ABs. He’d probably have gotten acclimated to the majors a year earlier if he’d been given enough opportunities. But none of that matters, because Moss is pissing some fans off now and we have to run the team like the season ends tomorrow.
by WTM on May 4, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I seem to have missed up my italics
lumberco, do you ever, ever stop fawning over Monroe and trying to talk Moss down?
It’s gotten old and annoying.
yeah
he says he’s not here to argue, but makes a different fanpost every day and continually harps on the point. lumber, your position is clear, our position (most of us) is clear, and bringing it up ad nauseam every single day won’t change any of it. Let’s wait a little longer (say til June) to bring this up again
by richmondpirate on May 4, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
My point of posting this was not to start yet another argument. I was just trying to give ya’ll someone else’s perspective on the situation, someone that observes sports in Pittsburgh and then writes about them. That’s all. I think it is funny, though, how I am the only one on this blog that seems to agree with the journalists and other people in Pittsburgh that say it’s time to give someone else a shot in RF. Somebody else needs to be starting in RF right now while Moss isn’t doing anything. Once again, I’m not saying all year, but just a few games to give him a mental break and to get some things corrected. I’ll leave it at that.
My advice is to go back and read the columns of Pittsburgh journalists during the Littlefield years and around the time of the trades last summer and you’ll understand why many on this blog don’t respect their opinions.
Except for Dejan of course who is one of the best beat reporters out there in my opinion.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on May 4, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Our Pittsburgh writers and reporters
were also the ones asking Jeter, when the Yanks came to town, if he thought baseball was fair for not having a salary cap and revenue sharing right around the time the Rays were proving that if you do it right it doesn’t matter. The Pirates have been bad for so long I think most of our local writers, and fans for that matter, don’t understand baseball anymore or only half pay attention.
by gorillakilla34 on May 5, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Dejan is great.
But Smizik picks positions based on which side lets him complain more, and Cook is as dumb as ten dogs. A former co-worker of mine used to work with Cook, and he said that Cook got confused all the time about really simple things, like which teams played which sports, or were located in which cities.
Sorry man, there just aren’t many other major league outfielders hitting .197 with 2 RBI a month into the season. Sorry if I seem a little upset by that.
yeah
b.j. upton is hitting .152 with 2 rbis. a team who plays a guy like that could never have a winning record, let alone go anywhere in the playoffs. they ought to cut that guy.
Smizik is a notable doofus
But lumberco has every right to link to his opinion piece.
I know if some newspaper piece supported a point I’d made exhaustively, I would link to it. Though I know I’d get plenty of scorn from citing to Smizik.
It’s “any port in a storm.”
As for me, the team’s won-loss record in 2009 means nothing to me. I want to see Moss being given every chance to prove himself. (BTW, I want the same for Delwyn Young who is getting no chance at all — both Young and Moss were the 5th OF on playoff teams with Manny Ramirez in LF and are about the same age with the same minor league reps.)
But if DK got his quotes right and management says that Moss’s problem is that he’s trying to hit a 5 run HR ever AB, then Moss does need to sit for a few days to get his mind right. I don’t know why JR won’t do this — he did it for Luigi?
As I've noted before...
…Moss’s minor league track recordis better than Young’s, once you account for park/league.
Based on DK's Q&A yesterday
.. .Smizik isn’t the only writer thinking Craig Monroe should get more starts:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09124/967622-63.stm
A bunch of mentions of Monroe in questions about giving young and others a chance. Then he gets defensive:
mtw: Why the outcry for Monroe? One big game this year, 32 years old, career OBP in the .320 range.
Dejan Kovacevic: I do not detect any outcry. In my case, I was just underscoring the point that the Pirates apparently are going to stick with the outfielders they use regularly.
DK annoys me sometimes. He likes to say that he’s this impartial voice, when it’s obvious he has biases.
One of the things that’s so funny/sad about all this is that, when DL used to do things like signing Raul Mondesi to play ahead of Craig Wilson, or Joe Randa to play ahead of Freddy Sanchez, many fans ripped him for it, and rightly so. That was always DL’s approach—bring in the zero-upside veteran to take time away from the guy who may or may not turn into a better player further down the road if given the chance. Now we have the exact same situation, except that Monroe has had only a tiny fraction of the success that Mondesi and Randa had, and is much more clearly washed up than they were at the time DL signed them.
I’ve said it before and I expect I’ll be saying it again and again — The less this team’s management behaves like DL, the more they get ripped for it.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Quality point, as per usual.
I have to think the pro-Monroe sentiment is largely from those who were a bit intoxicate with being 4 games over .500 “so late in the season,” as if 25-30 games into a season was late August. What little success we’ve had has largely been on the backs of players not expected to succeed – Jaramillo, Ohlendorf, AnLaRoche, Nyjer. Slotting young guys as starters is going to produce surprises and disappointments. Now is not the time to be shift philosophies.
Monroe reminds me of Rob Mackowiak in 2004. On May 27 of that year, I remember the calls for his starting reached a fevered pitch. He was hitting .347 with a .940 OPS in limited time as a role player/spot starter at 2B, 3B, CF and RF. He succeeded because he was managed the way he was. Lloyd put him into ballgames in which he could succeed, and kept him on the bench in situations where he was likely to achieve success. Come June, Mackowiak was a de facto starter, playing everyday at one of those four positions. And of course, over-exposed, he started a long, downward journey to career norms.
Good bench players who are managed well should have robust stats in small sample sizes. Why? Because the manager shoudl be putting them in specific situations in which they are primed to succeed. Monroe is no different/ Play him more often and I’m sure we’ll see the player with a career .746 OPS emerge.
A couple weeks from now, Moss will be hitting, and Ohlendorf and Jaramillo will be slumping, and the same people will be howling for Ohlendorf and Jaramillo to be benched.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Just like the same people...
…who were howling for Bautista to be waived in April ended up screaming and crying when he got traded.
There were even people screaming about NH not getting enough for Paulino.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know that many people that were crying about Bautista getting traded. He was great with the leather, but he couldn’t hit.
Actually, he couldn’t field, either. And whether there were people crying about it probably depended on where you were posting. In some places, there was a lot of screaming.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Bautista career UZR:
3B: -11.3 runs/150 games. That’s pretty bad.
He was also, according to what I read, one of the worst in MLB at advancing on hits (first-to-third on a single, scoring from second, etc.).
Every defensive stat I’ve seen rated him at or near the bottom for 3B.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I just remember that he make a legit Web Gem every other night and then boot the 3-hopper right to him….Weird. I know I wasn’t crying or screaming when he got traded.
similar to with nate, this is why numbers matter more than pretty plays
by richmondpirate on May 5, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
how could he not hit?
lets be real his average may have been in the 230 range, but he had more power than most of the turds we threw out on the field everyday
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
lets be real his average may have been in the 230 range
Thanks for proving my point, moreno. No more needs to be said.
by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Ollie
You guys don’t believe his strong start to the season is sustainable? ( I’m not trying to argue. It’s a genuine question. Lol.)
I was just using him as an example.
If he doesn’t start missing more bats, though, then no, I don’t think it’s sustainable.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t need to be worried about starting pitching right now (maybe Karstens). What’s more alarming is our offense and our suddenly terrible bullpen. If Moss can get going and Ad. LaRoche can start hitting again, I think we’ll be alright. But starting pitching is the least of my worries right now.
It's not my main concern now either
but that’s usually the way it works for the Pirates. The bats will come around and the starters will lose the ability to pitch. You see how it works even in the bullpen right now. Meek and Chavez are doing good but now Grabow and Capps are inconsistent. They can’t ever have too many things going right at the same time. That speaks more to the level of talent on the team than anything, I know.
by gorillakilla34 on May 5, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

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