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On Craig Monroe

He's awful. 

A short list of players who have a .320 average or higher in 25 or more plate appearances last year:

Cristian Guzman .383
Juan Pierre .379
Alberto Callaspo .378
Scott Hairston .377
Mark Loretta .375
Willie Bloomquist .372
Jason Bartlett .363
Omar Infante .360
Wladimir Balentien .353
Aaron Hill .352
Kevin Millar .341
Brian Barden .341
Jose Morales .340
Rod Barajas .333
Kurt Suzuki .329
Brendan Harris .327
Jose Bautista .326
Josh Anderson .326
Koyie Hill .323
Laynce Nix .323
Alex Cora .321
Pedro Feliz .321
Russell Branyan .320

 

Are these guys good at hitting for average? Would anyone seriously bet that Koyie Hill will finish the year with a batting average over .300? The reason so many mediocre players have such high averages right now is that crazy things happen in small sample sizes. These small sample sizes have a lot less predictive value than big ones, so what a player did in his last 1000 at bats is a much better indicator of how he'll do in the future than what he's done in 31 plate appearances this season. Everyone understands this principle writ small--if you're golfing and you hit a hole in one, you recognize it as a freak occurrence and don't assume you're going to hit all holes in one now that you've done it once. But for some people, this principle doesn't always make the transition to baseball, and suddenly Craig Monroe starts looking like Babe Ruth. 

Monroe is probably toast. His spring training stats mean virtually nothing, and his 31 plate appearances so far this year--during which he's posted an .840 OPS, which isn't even all that impressive--don't mean much more. In 2007 and 2008, he hit .219 with a .268 OBP and .202 with a .274 OBP, respectively. That's a much better indication of what he's likely to do if the Pirates put him in the lineup. It's like the last years of Neifi Perez, only with more power. Or remember Jeromy Burnitz's final season? Well, Monroe is almost that good. 

Monroe is also 32 and not under contract for next season (which is as it should be), which means he has no real chance of helping the next decent Pirates team. Putting him in the lineup now would be a decision that has absolutely no likely upside. The Pirates would have to bench a 25-year-old Brandon Moss to do it. Moss is cheap and under team control for several years, and while he isn't anyone's idea of a top prospect, he might be able to hit enough to be a useful complementary player for years to come. The Pirates need to find out what they've got there, and they have a limited amount of time to do it before Andrew McCutchen pushes either Moss or Nyjer Morgan out of the starting lineup. 

But let's say you're the type of person who sees Brandon Moss in right field and it gives you hives and stomach pains and you JUST CAN'T TAKE IT and you'll flip out and hurt someone if Moss isn't replaced, stat. Well, not that I'm calling anyone immature, but the inability to delay gratification is a sign of immaturity. A famous psychological study showed that children who were willing to sacrifice one marshmallow to get two marshmallows later were much more successful than those who weren't. Rebuilding baseball teams are the same way. The best ones plan ahead, even if that means not eating all your marshmallows right away. 

Also, Monroe isn't really like a marshmallow. He's more like that carton of cottage cheese in the back of your fridge that's three months past its sell-by date. Personally, I'd gladly deny myself some rancid cottage cheese now if it meant I could eat two marshmallows later.

WTM pointed out today that no matter how many times they encounter it, some fans never seem to get that a player's last 1000 at bats mean more than his last 50, or that to build a playoff team on a budget, you have to commit to young players. One would some folks would realize that they're making exactly the same mistakes some folks did when they crowed about Daryle Ward not getting an extension, or celebrated the signings of Burnitz and Joe Randa, or screamed about the Pirates not playing Josh Phelps enough (remember him?). This stuff happens all the time, but some people never seem to remember.

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So . . . Craig Monroe, Joe Randa and Jeromy Burnitz are one marshmallow, and Brandon Moss, Freddy Sanchez and Andy LaRoche are two marshmallows.

How many marshmallows is Randall Simon?

by WTM on May 5, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions  

The metaphor starts to break down after a while. I think “a two-marshmallow player” would be a good way to describe Moss or LaRoche’s roles on the team, though.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 5, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Simon had the last great Pirates hit against the Brewers though.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on May 5, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve seen some here claim that Moss was a top prospect in the Red Sox organization. Frankly…I don’t see where the talent is hiding. OTOH…Monroe isn’t the answer either. The answer is at Indianapolis…and no signs of being called up anytime soon.

by Thunder on May 5, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I haven’t read all the discussion of Moss, but “top prospect” would definitely be stretching it. I don’t think he was ever regarded as more than a 4th outfielder on a good team, and I don’t think the Pirates had any ideas beyond that. He’s a starter now because he has the highest ceiling of the available players. I expect they envision a 2010 or 2011 OF of McCutchen, McLouth and Tabata.

by WTM on May 5, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

PECOTA does see some chance that Moss breaks out a bit and has some .280/.350/.500 types of seasons. I don’t think that’s likely, but I appreciate that the Pirates are trying to see whether it will or not.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 5, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, that’s part of the point in sticking with a 25-yr-old as opposed to a 32-yr-old who’s convincingly shown himself to be over the hill. Monroe himself was in much the same position as Moss when, like Moss, he had the good luck to wind up with a bad team in his mid-twenties. He had peak years at 27-28 and has been living off them ever since. With Moss turning 25 late this season, there’s a reasonable chance of him having a couple peak years sometime in the next 2-4 seasons or so. The Pirates are putting themselves in a position to take advantage of that, which is a classic case of maximizing your resources. Meanwhile, there’s no harm because, notwithstanding the fluky start, this team is not going to contend.

by WTM on May 5, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember seeing Moss getting a start in Tokyo

at the start of the 2008 season when J.D. Drew was banged up, and all the MLB announcers said was that the Red Sox envisioned Moss as a 4th-OF type, a guy who could play a solid corner OF and would hopefully develop a nice line-drive stroke.

He’s not going to be Bonds, Van Slyke or Bonilla, but if he could become a decent replica of R.J. Reynolds for a few years, it would be very helpful.

by patthatt on May 5, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different Circumstances...

The Red Sox would view Moss as a 4th-OF type because they can afford to go out and get three better ones if they need to. Teams like that develop players in the minors and use them to fill in until a better FA or trade comes along, for the most part. Granted, Boston does a good job of developing home-grown talent, like Youkilis and Pedroia and Ellsbury and a number of their young pitchers, but to them, a guy like Brandon Moss is useful enough until the time when he can be replaced by or traded into something better.

A team like the Pirates can afford to let a guy like Moss develop because they aren’t locked in a life-or-death struggle for the playoffs with the Yankees every year. Moss might only be a 4th-OF type in Boston or NY, but in a lot of cities, he would wind up being a perfectly acceptable MLB player, capable of starting for a few seasons.

by Bishop1973 on May 5, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Top prospect probably stretches it a bit...

…but he was #9 on BA’s list of Boston’s top 10 prospects coming into last year, and they aren’t exactly a barren system. He’s a B-/C+ kind of guy. Huntington compared him to a young Nady when he was acquired, which is about right – a guy who’d be a good fourth OF, or a decent starter on a bad team, with some limited chance of a breakout.

by Vlad on May 5, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cutch

When exactly can the bucs call him up without losing that year of commitment?? Maybe if we clear it up one more time the few people on here and the millions on other sites who don’t realize this is important will see why he is still in AAA. I ask because I myself am not sure of the date but I know it is a factor.

by biglar33 on May 5, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This should have gone under Thunders post

by biglar33 on May 5, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not a year of committment that's at risk

As best I can understand the risk the PBC is avoiding that that ACutch would be a year early to arbitration if he qualifies as a Super 2 player.

Again, so far as I understand, if ACutch comes up the end of May or beginning of June, he won’t be able to qualify as a Super 2 player.

Watch for when Baltimore calls up Matt Weiters (though he may have some injury concerns that keeps him in the minors).

by WstCstBucco on May 5, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just curious

Who was saying that? I’ve been following this Moss “debate” for a while here now, and I remember people saying he was our highest ceiling outfielder, I certainly don’t remember anyone saying he was a top prospect, either in the Red Sox org or in general

by richmondpirate on May 5, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some middle ground

As I posted y’day, I don’t see any reason why the PBC shouldn’t get a really good look at Moss in 2009 — 500+ AB’s. It really doesn’t matter what the team’s W-L record is this year.

But that doesn’t mean that the PBC is doing the right thing running Moss out there every day given Moss’s new found affection for the Mendoza line.

DK wrote y’day:

Moss is pressing, plain and simple. That is what the Pirates see, and it is what everyone sees. He is trying to hit, in Neal Huntington’s words yesterday, “a five-run homer every time up.” That leads to poor discipline, poor results. In Moss’ case, that is exarcebated [sic] by the terrible numbers with men on base.

Just like he did with Andy LaRoche last month, JR should be sitting Moss. (Not tonight though — let’s see if y’day’s triple helped his confidence.) No MLB player who has the problems DK describes should be starting every game. If last night’s triple didn’t start something, JR should let Moss sit for a few games and see if he can get his head together.

As to Monroe, yep, he’ll be a slug. He’s like Jason Michaels last year — don’t let the hot start fool you. All MLB players tend to play to their mean the more AB’s they get (Nyjer Morgan — I’m talking about you). There is no “fountain of youth” for the Monroes of the world.

But where’s Delwyn Young? Why can’t he get a chance in the OF? He’s only 26, and his OPS in his last full AAA season (2007) was .955 (true it was in the hit-happy PCL, but what the hey?). He strikes out too much, and maybe can’t play D, but why spend all this effort just to turn him into Freddy Sanchez’s bat boy for 2009?

And where’s Eric Hinske? He was a major contributor (20 HR in <400 AB’s) for the Rays last year and I know he can play a decent RF.

Why are these guys nailed to the bench while Moss (and Morgan) are run out there every damn day? What happened to Huntington’s big speech to his players about “accountability?”

Why can’t Hiske, Young (and even Monroe) get a start a once or twice a week? Will the sky fall if Nyjer Morgan gets a day off? Should JR be trotting out to start every day (at least every day a RH is the SP) a guy who the GM says is trying to hit a 5 run HR every AB?

by WstCstBucco on May 5, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Just like he did with Andy LaRoche last month, JR should be sitting Moss.

Seeing as how Moss has started 10 of the last 15 games, I’m not sure what your complaint is. Two games out of three doesn’t seem like “every damn day” to me.

by WTM on May 5, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dunno

Not the world’s greatest researcher, but Including tonight’s game (DK says Moss is starting), it looks like to me that Moss has started 12 out of the team’s last 15 games. Every game but May 1, April 25 and April 20. At least one of those games there was a LH SP (which I excepted).

And I didn’t exhaustively research this, but I think Nyjer Morgan has started every single game this year.

To me, a guy trying to hit a 5 run HR every AB should be sitting a tad bit more than that. And Nyjer Morgan — well don’t get me started.

by WstCstBucco on May 5, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to the gamelog at ESPN, Moss also sat on April 8 and appeared on to pinch-hit on April 27.

I’m not sure how sitting is going to keep him from pressing. If you simply bench him, it might make him all the more anxious when he finally does get to play again. If his state of mind is really an issue, I think the manager could make a better judgment about it than us sitting here at our keyboards.

by WTM on May 5, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

“appeared only

by WTM on May 5, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure I’m able to give JR the benefit of the doubt here. Delwyn Young joined the team on April 17 and is still waiting for his first start — that can’t be right. JR seems to be a push-button kinda manager to me.

Like he won’t sit Morgan down I think cause then he’d have to rearrange the whole batting order and that’s a hell of a lot of work. :) Or the previous posts on why the hell JR saves Capps until the start of the 9th, instead of bringing him in to face Braun in the 8th when he could have done some good. (I miss Dave Guisti too — whatever happened to the 3 IP save?)

P.S. “April 8” is probably a typo too, WTM. It’s a lot more than 15 games ago. You can’t mean “April 28” cause Moss started in LF and went 1-4 that day. Not that I don’t admit defeat!

by WstCstBucco on May 5, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should have been April 18.

Anyway, I would like to see Young get a start or two.

by WTM on May 5, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=mossbr01&t=b&year=2009

Hopefully that helps solve this debate

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on May 5, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good points

You were totally throwing me off about the whole “y’day” ‘s. I realize it means yesterday now. I’d like to see if Moss turns it around by the end of the month. Not even turn it around, point it in the right direction at least. Giving Hinske a few more days would be great, but let’s not give up on Moss.

by Ketcham Bruce on May 5, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not just the "hit-happy PCL"...

…it’s one of the easiest places to hit in the entire minors. Where he was repeating a level.

That .955 looks good in the abstract, but it was only the fifth-best number on the team, among players with 100+ AB (behind, in order: AAAA All-Stars Mitch Jones (1.099) and John Lindsey (1.010), Andy LaRoche (.988), and a comebacking Larry Bigbie (.963)). In that environment, even no-bat middle infielders like Wilson Valdez (.848) and Luis Maza (.942) look like lineup anchors.

by Vlad on May 5, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kudos, Charlie!

Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s going to make any difference to “some people,” no matter how well you illustrate it.

Kind of like the proverbial Japanese soldier who doesn’t know the war is over.

Now, if we could just stop the name-calling…

I'd rather be dead than singing "Satisfaction" at forty-five. -- M. Jagger

by cocktailsfor2 on May 5, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Craig Monrow is awful? Now, look, you don’t have to agree with my opinion that we should be playing someone else in right field, but to go this far with it? Seriously man. He’s not awful. When’s the last time an awful player hit 8 HR in spring training? When’s the last time an awful player hit 2 HR in one game and got a curtain call? If he was awful, at his age, I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t be playing baseball right now. We get it. You don’t like Monroe. But don’t go that far with it.

by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 3:39 AM EDT reply actions  

When’s the last time an awful player hit 8 HR in spring training?

Someone named Mike Wilson did it for the Mariners this year. Wilson is a marginal prospect who hasn’t played above Class AA before. Travis Ishikawa, Mike Jacobs, and Mark Teahen all hit seven. It’s pretty hard to find Spring Training statistics for previous years unless you want to comb through them team by team, because THEY DON’T MATTER.

When’s the last time an awful player hit 2 HR in one game and got a curtain call?

I’m not sure what the curtain call has to do with anything, but Luis Rivas did it for the Pirates just last year. Awful. And didn’t you just say yesterday that Jose Bautista couldn’t hit? He hit two homers in a game in early 2008.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 6, 2009 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

im sick of lumberco

and i have to admit i was infatuated with Daryle Ward. I loved that guy.

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on May 6, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then you may be interested to know...

…that he just signed a minor league deal with the White Sox last week. They assigned him to AAA Charlotte, if you feel like a road trip.

by Vlad on May 6, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow thanks for the heads up vlad

I have cousins that are big Charlotte Kinights fans down there, so theyre in for a real treat

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

The thing I loved most about Daryle Ward was the “Daryle Ward Sucks” website.

I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.

by Chester J Lampwick on May 6, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

go cry about about it somewhere else…don’t waste our time on here.

by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was that really necessary?

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 6, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

k thanks slumberco

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and Ishikawa, Jacobs, and Teahen are everyday major league players, so what’s your point?

As far as Joey Bats goes, big deal. Should we throw a party for him for his multi-HR game. He’s a career .240 hitter. Yeah, you’re gonna hit some home runs every once in a while, but he’s not a good hitter.

by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far as Joey Bats goes, big deal. Should we throw a party for him for his multi-HR game. He’s a career .240 hitter. Yeah, you’re gonna hit some home runs every once in a while, but he’s not a good hitter.

This is exactly my… no, lots of people’s… point regarding Monroe.

by Charlie Wilmoth on May 6, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Check your forehead for bruises, Charlie.

I'd rather be dead than singing "Satisfaction" at forty-five. -- M. Jagger

by cocktailsfor2 on May 6, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow charlie just dominated

great point

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oddly enough, I suspect most of us will be perfectly happy, or at least not terribly unhappy, to see that Delwyn Young is starting tonight over Moss.

by WTM on May 6, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions  

love it

I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ

by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

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