Brewers 8, Pirates 5: Why Throwing 131 Pitches is a Bad Idea
by Charlie on May 5, 2009 10:52 PM EDT
39 comments
Ian Snell almost escaped with only three runs allowed tonight, but the five-spot he got tagged with after Jesse Chavez allowed two inherited runs to score was closer to what Snell deserved. He had no fastball all night, routinely throwing lukewarm heaters that were as slow as 86 or 87 MPH. I think he might have touched 90 once or twice. (UPDATE: The Post-Gazette notes the velocity issue but says Snell topped out at 93, which I didn't see--we were probably reading off different radar guns.) We should consider ourselves lucky if he looks like the Snell of old next time out, and hopefully John Russell will take the hint that it's rarely a good idea to allow a starter to throw 131 pitches, as Snell did in his previous start.
Freddy Sanchez appeared to hurt his throwing shoulder during a play at second in the top of the first, but he stayed in the game and came to bat in the bottom of the inning off Jeff Suppan. After that, the Pirates didn't do much against Suppan, despite Suppan not really being good anymore or throwing any harder than Snell did. The Pirates managed a run here, a run there, and then a two-run double by Delwyn Young, but their pitching couldn't keep them in the game. Chavez had a hard time, and then Evan Meek walked the first two batters he faced and had them both score on a double by Craig Counsell. With Matt Capps on the shelf, the Bucs were forced to allow Donnie Veal to pitch the ninth. I don't know why the Brewers swung at anything he threw--he hit Prince Fielder with his first toss and had Fielder advance on a wild pitch--but swing they did, and Veal managed to get through the inning after striking out Jason Kendall.
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The gift that keeps on giving
Not only did the high pitch count hurt the Pirates’ chances of winning tonight, and not only does it raise the risk that Snell will end up injured, but Russell ended up having to run through the bullpen. He better hope he can get some innings out of his starters in St. Louis, where Pirate pitchers usually go to get destroyed.
by WTM on May 5, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Any chance They'll start bringing up starters/others ...
They need a bullpen bad. The starters are ok, good enough – not great. What I don’t understand is why there aren’t any moves to bring up some better bullpen pitchers. Why not give someone a chance at the 5th spot in the rotation or some middle relief. Why are we stuck with a group of Rule 5 players who keep blowing leads?
Isn’t there any AA or A ball pitchers worth looking at?
by Pensburgh Pirates on May 6, 2009 12:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Please...
Please don’t tell me we are about to go in a never-ending downward spiral. I hope it really is just the Brewers, the that series against the Reds was ugly, too. Please, please. They got off to such a great start, and now our offense and bullpen have gone straight down the sink! C’mon Buccos. Regroup, and pull it back together.
By the way, Adam LaRoche better start hitting again if the Pirates want to trade him. If he goes into a miserable slump, which I definitely would not doubt, he won’t have any trade value come July. Of course, teams know what he does in the second half and that may still get him traded, but I’m sure they would like to see him doing something before they get him. Gah, when he’s good, he’s an All-Star, and when he’s bad, he’s a Triple-A player. Can’t he find a happy medium at least?
by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 2:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
laroche has been the biggest bat in the lineup so far this season. him and freddy have completely held down the offense. can you please just not mention laroche or monroe or moss in any of your posts? its so annoying.
BIG DOUBLE FROM DELWYN LAST NIGHT! HE IS 2342 TIMES BETTER THAN MONROE LUMBERCO!
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 6, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRoche hasn’t had an RBI in the last 2 weeks (his 2 HR game at San Diego). His average has dropped from .286 to .250 very quickly. I’m not saying that he is in a slump yet, but you know as well as I do that LaRoche is extremely streaky and he can plummet quickly. I’m just sayin’ he needs to continue to hit 1) so he can help us win games and 2) so his trade stock is as high as possible when we look to ship him off in July.
As far as me talking about Monroe, LaRoche and Moss all the time, this is the first time since mid-April that I have said something about LaRoche. Nice keeping up there. And the Monroe-Moss talk? …
by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A month into the season...
…anybody can plummet quickly.
by Vlad on May 6, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No RBI in two weeks? Seriously? C’mon Vlad
by thelumberco. on May 7, 2009 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His average is at .240 now, and dropping.
by thelumberco. on May 7, 2009 5:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No RBI in two weeks?
How many days are in your week? Mine have more than four and a half…
But even if he does go RBI-less for two weeks, so what? Guys do that all the time. Here’s one example – no RBI at all between July 5 and July 25. Shocking!
by Vlad on May 7, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh wow so you havent said anything about laroche for an entire week
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, no argument from me there. Young is a better hitter than Monroe, and obviously he’s younger. Maybe the Pirates have the roles reversed. Maybe Young should become the everyday RF and Moss should be the bench player. You know, Moss has always been projected as a fourth outfielder everywhere he’s been. It’s pretty obvious why. I don’t expect the Pirates to make that kind of drastic move yet, BUT if Moss doesn’t start hitting any better than this, they have to start thinking about other options.
by thelumberco. on May 7, 2009 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Moss has been projected as a 4th OF...
…because he’s been playing for good teams that had starting-caliber outfielders. Unlike us, where he’s the best available option.
It’s a lot easier to beat out a scrub like Craig Monroe than JD Drew or Manny Ramirez.
by Vlad on May 7, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is conjecture
Snell has been similarly inefficient and non-productive at other times this season, last season… and it had nothing to do with throwing 131 pitches.
by SloshyJ on May 6, 2009 8:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Snell is often inefficient...
…but he usually doesn’t work high-80s with his FB, either. That’s very worrying, and I don’t think last week’s pitchapalooza can be discounted there.
I can’t lay hands on it right now, but I remember seeing a study once suggesting that pitchers were unusually prone to bad outings in the start immediately following a 130+ pitch game.
by Vlad on May 6, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn’t even high-80s. A lot of the time it was 86-87. Walk on the TV broadcast said Snell “doesn’t have a fastball tonight.” He also said Snell just wasn’t throwing the way he normally does.
by WTM on May 6, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was it this one
It’s kind of buried in this Rany Jayazerli article on the 4-man rotation.
It’s an excellent series. I’m still surprised no one’s tried it.
by azibuck on May 6, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would this be it?
I remember having read it as well:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1477
by RichieHebner on May 6, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same thing happened to Duke after his long shutout, even though it was only 120.
charity standing orders
by BadMaafala on May 6, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tekulve's thoughts
I wonder about Teke’s analysis anyway but he said something in the post game last night that didnt make sense to me. He said that Snell was definitely affected by the 131 pitches in his previous start but the good news is he will be back on track next time out because he only threw 85 this time. Surface level that makes sense to a simple mind I guess but if he was worn out before and obviously showed signs of it in this start, it doesnt make sense to me that next time out he will majically be fine because the 2 pitch counts average out to about 110 or so per. Sounds like wishful thinking to me!
by biglar33 on May 6, 2009 9:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what bothers me the most is...
… 10 walks allowed (plus 1 HBP) vs. 4 strikeouts. how can we convince these guys to ATTACK hitters with strikes instead of just nibble nibble at the corners?
by humbucker on May 6, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not trying....
to be irrational, but how can you possibly have guys on such tight pitch in the organization that you fine a minor league manager for exceeding the number by six and yet your ML manager brings a guy out to pitch the seventh inning of a 0-0 game when he has already thrown 107 pitches.? I hate saying that people shouldn’t have their job, but in this case I have come to the point that Russell is not fit to do the job.
by dtoddwin on May 6, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Random note — Scheppers had his first indy league start last night for the St. Paul Saints and pitched 4 no-hit innings. He struck out 6 but walked 4. Amusingly, the picture with the article shows St. Paul shortstop and former Pirates farmhand/nepotism pick Tony Mansolino. I can’t believe I remember that guy…
by shayborg on May 6, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nepotism?
I didn’t know he was related to somebody.
I remember him quite well because he was the main UT guy at Lynchburg for over a year and seemed to be in the lineup every time I saw them. He was about as automatic as an automatic out can get. Not much good defensively, either.
by WTM on May 6, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doug Mansolino...
roving infield instructor for the Pirates system in 2003-2004.
by Thunder on May 6, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That explains it.
DL’s band of boobs was really into that sort of thing. There was Brian Tracy, who was a crappy pitcher in college, and Ryan Searage, who made Mansolino look like Albert Pujols. And they actually gave those guys semi-regular playing time, except for Juan Mesa, who didn’t play much. At least Josh Bonifay was a borderline prospect.
I hope we’ve seen the last of that crap.
by WTM on May 6, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Bonifay wasn't half bad.
I think he would’ve at least made the majors as a benchie, if not for the knee problems.
by Vlad on May 6, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’Don’t forget Spin Williams’ son, Sit N’ Spin Williams… Jr.
by SloshyJ on May 6, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finally and he did well
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finally
and he did pretty well
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
finally
and he did well
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha sry about that. my computer was messin up
I GOT MY STREET BUZZ BEFORE I GOT MY PEACH FUZZ
by omar moreno on May 7, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now, if he could only get his computer to use capital letters and punctuation…
;-)
I'd rather be dead than singing "Satisfaction" at forty-five. -- M. Jagger
by cocktailsfor2 on May 7, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
some of them don’t come with that feature. i skipped the shift key to save some cash :)
by johnnycuff on May 8, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweep in St. Louis
I think we win both of these games in St. Louis. As long as we don’t pitch to Pujols, I think we win. If we’re dumb enough to pitch to Pujols, we probably lose. Simple as that.
Wait, our bullpen is going to pitch isn’t it? Uh oh.
by thelumberco. on May 6, 2009 6:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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