Adam Laroche -- Not Exactly The Best Pirates' First Baseman Since Pops
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 20, 2009 9:06 PM EDT
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PrintThanks a lot to Slick1 for putting together his chart. I based my chart on his and it was really helpful. Slick1 is the best.
Anyway, I think a small mistake of Slick1's chart was to based it on OPS instead of OPS+, which is park corrected. Comparing a player who played in Three Rivers and the ballparks of the 80s against a player who plays in PNC Park and the ballparks of the 21st century is really an unfair comparison. I think you have to correct for the eras and the parks, and OPS+ does that.
Here's my chart of Pirates' first basemen and their OPS+:
Year Player OPS+
===========================
1975 Willie Stargell 147
1976 Willie Stargell 125
1977 Willie Stargell 145
1978 Willie Stargell 158
1979 Willie Stargell 139
1980 Willie Stargell 129
1981 Willie Stargell 92
1982 Jason Thompson 147
1983 Jason Thompson 115
1984 Jason Thompson 109
1985 Jason Thompson 111
1986 Sid Bream 115
1987 Sid Bream 97
1988 Sid Bream 113
1989 Sid Bream 114
1990 Sid Bream 124
1991 Orlando Merced 119
1992 Orlando Merced 104
1993 Kevin Young 73
1994 Brian Hunter 81
1995 Mark Johnson 94
1996 Jeff King 116
1997 Kevin Young 120
1998 Kevin Young 108
1999 Kevin Young 127
2000 Kevin Young 86
2001 Kevin Young 80
2002 Kevin Young 90
2003 Randall Simon 85
2004 Daryle Ward 99
2005 Daryle Ward 89
2006 Sean Casey 104
2007 Adam Laroche 108
2008 Adam Laroche 123
2009 Adam Laroche 124
So, when you look at the park corrected stats, it looks to me like Adam Laroche is only the best Pirates' first baseman since Kevin Young, and is also comparable to Sid Bream.and Jason Thompson.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of the managing editor (Charlie) or SB Nation. FanPosts are written by Bucs Dugout readers.
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Looks to me like Young and the others are better only if you ignore their bad years. I’d say your chart proves Slick1’s point.
Age
Okay. Interesting. But consider that Kevin Young was 29 in 1999, and Adam Laroche is 29 this year. So when you compare the players at similar ages, so far, Adam Laroche is comparable to Kevin Young at the same age.
Kevin Young fell apart at age 30. Will Adam Laroche? Time will tell. But as it stands, they’re comparable players from the age of 27 to 29.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 20, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there were some pretty significant health issues with Young that didn’t get talked about much, that accounted for his sudden collapse. Not that that says anything about LaRoche one way or the other.
I agree with that...
but right or wrong durability comes into play when evaluating a player. This uis what make the steroid issue so complicating when evaluting players. It’s not just the fact that a player probably gets a few more HR’s per season but more importantly how many more AB’s does said player receive from using PED’s. Another topic for another post I supposed. I guess the best example currently that comes to mind is Ryan Doumit. He won’t be considered as one of the top offensive catchers in the league because he is never on the field, regardless of what the does when he is actually on the field. That being said, Young did put together some nice seasons for us. I appreciate it more now than I did then unfortunately!
Pops And Drugs
Since you bring up both drugs and Pops, I’m compelled to bring up that he was probably the biggest drug dealer in the Major Leagues in the 1970s. While anabolic steroids are new(ish), greenies and uppers of all kinds were being used by players in the 70s and earlier. Hell. In the 1800s they were drinking animal testicle juice. So correcting for steroids isn’t as easy as saying that players now have it easier. It’s really unclear.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 20, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you have a source for the Stargell drug charge?
I only read blogs, so is this in a book somewhere?
PIttsburgh Drug Trials
There are lots of sources for it. Look up “Pittsburgh drug trials.” It’s fairly well known and documented. Ask your local librarian! Take a look. It’s in a book.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 21, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
What book?
Give me the name of the book. I looked up "Pittsburgh drug trials" and checked at least 10 of the links. Most didn’t mention Stargell, but a few did. They all had the same reference,
“(John Milner) also testified that that Hall of Famers Willie Mays and Willie Stargell had provided him with illegal amphetamines early in his career.”
You said Stargell “was probably the biggest drug dealer in the Major Leagues in the 1970s.” Back it up.
Milner wasn't the only one...
…to testify about Stargell dispensing “greenies”.
Dale Berra also testified that he requested (and got) them from both Stargell and Bill Madlock: Link.
There’s no doubt in my mind that Stargell was using and distributing them back then, but it’s misleading to say that he was a “dealer”, since it was pretty common practice in MLB back then to just give them away free of charge. Clubhouses kept pots of coffee ready that were spiked with amphetamines – it’s mentioned in Ball Four, among other places.
Oh, I get that
But “biggest drug dealer in the Major Leagues” and someone that gave out greenies to teammates (in the 1960s-1970s) are two different things to me. Stargell may have been the biggest name to be tainted by the Pittsburgh Drug Trials (though Mays was mentioned then, and elsewhere too), but I’m just bothered by the phrasing used by Androgen Jar Jimmy.
I think it could've definitely been worded better...
…though his intent was pretty true.
Not to put words in his mouth, of course.
“Not to put words in his mouth, of course.”
Or greenies.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 22, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post...
Seriously. I appreciate the research too. But the whole point of my post is that you can’t cherry pick stats when evaluating a player’s woth. Therefore you can’t just look at Young’s best seasons and say he was the best. You’re right in the fact that time will tell but as of right now Laroche is better. You are also excluding his numbers in Atlanta and one of the two was Adam’s best season. I do appreaciate that you are trying to use logic when presenting your argument.
Outside of the stats Jeff King is the best first basemen we’ve ever had since Pops because of his mustache. Too bad his better mustache years were in KC.
"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell
The Importance Of A Good Mustache
Cannot be overrated.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 20, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe if Mario ....
would have grown a fu man chu or something he would have been better received.
"Baseball is better than football. Think about it, eighty degrees, a cold beer and a short-sleeve shirt is better than 30 degrees, a hip flask and six layers of clothes under a lap blanket. Take your pick: suntan or frostbite. " - Thomas Boswell
by Ketcham Bruce on Jun 20, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
He needs to grow a chin first…
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 21, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice Catch, Cutch
Nate McLouth would have pooped his pants.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 20, 2009 10:17 PM EDT reply actions
Kevin Young had slightly better speed and defense at his peak, so I’d give him the edge over players like Bream and LaRoche.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 20, 2009 10:51 PM EDT reply actions
OPS And Speed
Although to be clear, OPS does measure speed too, since it includes slugging percentage.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 21, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that it's a big deal...
but other than 100 games in 1972…Stargell didn’t play 1B regularly until 1975.
All this does
is prove the point I’ve been trying to drive home for several years now on this blog:
Orlando Merced was a stud.
;-)
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
If
If by “stud” you mean “better than Randall Simon” then you are absolutely correct.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 21, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey.
Lay off Orlando.
He signed an 8 × 10 & personalized it for me.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 22, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Up next in the set of
“Adam LaRoche” fanposts…
Adam LaRoche – - He’s Our First Baseman.
AKA… Love him or hate him, he’s here until he’s not.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Randall Simon...i so gotta laugh when i hear his name
“stud”….nah man more like a “tool” Im sure you all remember this one…i know off topic but i couldn’t help it.
A Unique Skill
He might not be able to hit with runners in scoring position, but he can definitely hit sausages!
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 21, 2009 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions
AndrogenJarJimmy
You can edit your fanpost. As Thunder pointed out, Stargell did not play 1st base for many of the years you use his stats for.
When Adam LaRoche is gone, especially if it is in the next month, there will be plenty of whining and crying through at least 2010 when we have to watch less-talented players at first base.
Not Easy
It would be a challenge to find a first baseman worse than Adam Laroche. But I predict that the Pirates are up to the challenge.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 21, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow
That’s quite a load of suck there between 2000 and 2007. LaRoche probably LOOKS a little better to us just because our 1Bs were so terrible for almost a decade before he arrived. IIRC, OPS+ measures not by position but against the entire league, so shortstops, second basemen and catchers would pull down the average that our 1Bs still managed to finish below.
That's correct, Bucdaddy.
In the other LaRoche thread…I made a list of active 1B and ex-Pirates with higher career OPS+ than Adam. It’s pretty lengthy.
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