Nationals Interested in Nyjer Morgan
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 27, 2009 4:04 AM EDT
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The teams began discussing this eight days ago, and a Washington proposal in which the Pirates would get younger outfielder Lastings Milledge crumbled when the Pirates came back seeking Milledge and starter Craig Stammen.
One of the sources said the teams plan to continue to talk, mostly because the Nationals are eager to have Morgan as a leadoff man.
I know Nyjer Morgan is a valuable defensive player and all, but I'd gladly take a chance on Lastings Milledge's upside if the Nationals offered him. I don't understand why Craig Stammen would hold up a trade on either end--why the Pirates would demand him, or why the Nats would refuse to give him up. He's already 25 and has never pitched particularly well above Class AA.
Milledge has a history of attitude issues and would probably just end up frustrating the Pirates, but he's only 24, has tools galore, and hit competently as a full-time big leaguer last year. Morgan won't be part of the next good Pirates team, and I don't see any obvious reason to hold onto him if the Bucs can get someone with Milledge's upside in return.
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Given the players involved in this rumor, the holdup at this point is like arguing over whether there should be four or five dozen in the proverbial bag of baseballs.
The Same Fans
The same fans who will wail about dumping Morgan will be the ones who complained about him being on the team in the first place, or the ones who think he’s a good prospect who we should hang onto to see how he develops.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh please
This smells like the Jair Jurgens trade falling through because DL demanded Craig Monroe. We must be missing something.
Of course … what the hell happened to Jurgens last night? When’s the last time you heard of a pitcher getting called for TWO balks in a game?
Still Atlanta’s best pitcher. Still 23.
Signing Snell...
Is starting to look like his first big mistake.
Small Mistake
Signing a player for a small dollar amount who turns out to suck is only a small mistake.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Craig Monroe was a productive Major League player at the time. I could see how he would have held up a trade back then, especially with a team already giving up one of their best prospects.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
He was so productive
that he cleared waivers and was sent to the Cubs a month later WITH cash for the immortal Clay Rapada.
If that deal went askew because of Craig Monroe,both DL and the Tigers dropped the ball….
Check out my blog at thoughtsofrs@blogspot.com
by Count Vertigo on Jun 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
If we do this and Milledge does not perform and has a Milton Bradley attitude while Nyjer continues to have a good season not to many people are gonna be happy.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 27, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions
I'm not a stats guy...
and I like Morgan more than most regulars here, but it seems to me that Milledge for Nyger would be a no brainer for NH. Talk about trading at high value, 3 months ago you would’ve been laughed out here (for good reason) for suggesting such a deal to the Nats.
I have a hard time believing such a deal was offered.
What kind of speed and defense does Milledge bring? I always heard of him as a 4 or 5 tool guy, but how does it compare to Nyger?
Good day.
I don't know what it's worth
but his UZR stats on FanGraphs are
LF… 0.2
CF… -17.1 (had a really bad year for the Nats in 2008)
RF… -8.3
The thing is, the Pirates aren’t going to need him in CF.
So maybe that’s all irrelevant?
(Oh, and if I’m looking at the wrong stats or something, please let me know. I’m still new to all of these weird stats I’ve never seen before)
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A Hard Time Beliving Such A Deal Was Offered
It’s not absurd to consider the possibility that the deal was never offered, and that Neal Huntington merely said it was in an attempt to stoke up a market for Nyjer Morgan.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Me too
I know the Nationals aren’t the best-run club in the business, but this is like a names-out-of-the-hat type of rumor. Who in their right minds in Washington would consider this? And I have a hard time believe NH would seriously say “no” because he wants a pitcher tossed in.
On the other hand, that link was a helpful reminder of why I don’t read the comments on Dejan’s blog. Ever.
Ironic
That your matter-of-fact tone in that last sentence is exactly how Dejan tries to present his work. I just loved last week how he ended a piece about Snell with the short sentence “And he has a very good arm.”
But yeah I completely agree Dejan’s analysis is…lacking. Often provides comic relief, though.
Dejan himself okay, although I do think his weaselly “editorializing-but-really-I’m-not” schtick is getting tired. He’s still one of the better beat writers on baseball there is, and that does mean something. I find that his editorializing isn’t as annoying when I think he’s right. :-D
In my comment here, though, I was more referring to the quality and style of the commenters over there, as opposed to over here. Lots of yinzers who think if we’d only spend $20 million a year on Manny Ramirez and never trade anybody at the peak of their value (instead of the valley), then we’d finally win 82 games in a season.
The blog brings the audience
Dejan’s blog brings that crowd because it often focuses on money issues and less relevant player “insight” on top of covering the team. How many times has he mentioned that Milwaukee is a comparable market to Pittsburgh and yet the Bew Crew’s payroll outstrips the Pirates’? And, while I got a laugh out of the Nyjer Morgan/Cutch nickname piece a few weeks back, it had little to do with the success of the club.
I don’t mean that to sound like a rant, I just share your frustration with the level of thinking on that blog.
To be fair
We probably WOULD win 82 games a season if we got Manny Ramirez and never traded anyone at their peak. But that’s not the goal.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s also not out of the realm of possibility that the Nationals are just complete idiots. I mean, they are.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
True
Never underestimate the potential of human stupidity.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Albert Einstein
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the the universe."
I'm not sure I want Milledge.
I doubt if we could get better for Morgan alone, but I’m not sure Milledge is ever going to be the player he “should” be. He’s had four years in the Major Leagues (although only enough PA to account for a full two) and his best OPS was .787. He posts negative UZR, and when extended to UZR/150 is truly awful.
LF: UZR – 0.2 UZR/150 – 1.8
CF: UZR – (-17.1) UZR/150 – (-16.1)
RF: UZR – (-8.3) UZR/150 – (-26.5)
His aggregate as an OF in any position is UZR – (-25.2) UZR/150 – (-15.8)
He hit decently last year, but he’s been a disappointment since coming up to the Majors. He’ll never develop big-time power, he’s shown bad discipline in both his Major and minor league careers, he’s awful at picking his time to steal, and none of this even mentions his reputation as a headcase.
You see somebody with potential. I see somebody who has consistently disappointed by failing to live up to that potential at any level since A ball.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
You Know Who Else Was A Head Case?
Babe Ruth. Nobody minds a head-case if he performs.
But you’re right, Lastings Milledge he’s constantly underperformed his expectations. Then again, he’s still young. He’ll probably have better seasons around age 27. Most players peak then. He’s still improving, as opposed to Nyjer, who will never be any better than he is right now.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I both agree and disagree.
Yes, he has better potential than Nyjmo, who at this point has 0 upside and is what he is. I just don’t see him reaching it ever.
Other young top prospects have performed to expectations. They haven’t reached their potential, but they’ve shown that they’re capable of getting there and have been solid in the mean time. Look at McCutchen. Look at Kemp. Look at Ethier (He’s 27 now, but he put up good numbers at 24.) Look at Adam Lind. Some of those players are a year or so older than Milledge, sure, but some are the same age and some are younger. The older ones all out-performed Milledge in their age 24 seasons. The younger ones are out perfoming him right now.
At some point, you have to call a spade a spade. I’m saying Milledge is a bust.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Argh!
better potential than Nyjmo, who at this point has 0 upside and is what he is
Isn’t this more or less exactly what everyone on this blog was saying last September? And hasn’t Nyjmo already proven them (you) wrong in spades? His defense is far, far better than any of you said it would/could be. He’s taking more walks and showing more power than any of you ever said he would/could.
I’m not saying that Nyjmo at 32 will be a much better player than he is now. But it’s insane (and, frankly, a little dense) to look at a player who is actively improving, right in front of you, and say that he has already peaked.
That said, I don’t deny that Milledge has more potential than Morgan, and more time to explore it. But their career trajectories are opposite – Morgan has shown a willingness and ability to improve his game and make use of the tools he has. Milledge has been the anti-McCutcheon. The best argument in favor of the trade (amde above) is that Morgan will surely not be on the next winning Pirates team (Coonlington has committed to that), and Milledge could, even though he probably won’t.
Are you serious?
Nyjer Morgan’s OPS+, by season:
2007: 105
2008: 94
2009: 90
Hint: higher is better.
But He's Very Good On Defense
That’s not saying he’s a superstar; but he’s decent.
So the question is, do you think Lasting Milledge will ever be decent? Personally, I don’t.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Any improvements he makes will be marginal
Yes, he could theoretically still improve, but he’s not going to get THAT MUCH better. Thus, he is what he is. Milledge still could be much, much better than he is right now. He isn’t what he is.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Nats fans
They don’t want to give up Stammen.
http://www.federalbaseball.com/2009/6/27/927157/ed-prices-tweet-says-nationals#comments
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You Know Who Else Was A Head Case?
Babe Ruth. Nobody minds a head-case if he performs.
But you’re right, Lastings Milledge he’s constantly underperformed his expectations. Then again, he’s still young. He’ll probably have better seasons around age 27. Most players peak then. He’s still improving, as opposed to Nyjer, who will never be any better than he is right now.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
I hit reply to the other comment but it showed up here. Something’s funky somewhere.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You're lucky
your apology didn’t show up someplace else or no one would have the slightest idea what you were writing about.
by WestCoastBuc on Jun 27, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If Nyjer proves his worth in the next couple of days and the nats wont offer Stammen to he may stay, but if the Nats agree to send Milledge and Stammen he’s gone.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
ummmmm....
Yea, that was the whole point. Well……except the Nyjer proving his worth in the next couple days part. Thats just plain retarded.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 27, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
well i would rather have him stay.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 27, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Then I'm glad you aren't the GM.
He’s 29 years old. He has the skillset of a young player, and isn’t developing old player skills. He’s not going to be good for much longer. It’s time to trade him while we can.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
well than they should shop him around a bit more and see if they can get a better offer than Milledge. I mean he is a good young player and all but i do not think he is gonna reach his full pontential.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 27, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
because…Nyjer is a very underrated player he may be 29 but he has only played in the majors for 3 Yrs so its not like he is burnt out, he is our best deffensive outfielder, has great speed which makes up for his lack of power , and has very high character while Milledge is a bad attitude guy who isnt very good.
by Cutch is the chosen one! on Jun 27, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s only played in the Majors for three years because he wasn’t good enough to make the Majors until he was 26 years old. And even then, only as a backup for two years.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions
What The Nationals Really Need Is An Old Fashioned Mediocre 29-Year-Old Leadoff Man
My mind is completely blown that the Nationals are interested in a player like Nyger Morgan. He’s too old to be a part of their future, and they’re not gonna win now. What the hell are they thinking? Just making trades for the sake of it?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah I agree. I really don’t understand what the Nats are doing in this trade which is why I have trouble believing this rumor unless Milledge has more attitude issues than we’re hearing about, but even then. . .
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 27, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Then Again
This is exactly the kind of trade that David Littlefield would pull of and think he’s a real genius.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The Nationals: Bad for a reason.
They didn’t get to be one of the biggest laughingstocks of baseball by making prudent decisions since moving from Montreal.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s true but I still think this is beyond even Nationals bad.
As pointed out above, maybe Dave Littlefield though.
I made most of my life decisions at a Foghat concert... I stand by them.
by Chester J Lampwick on Jun 27, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Milledge
is still young, but has 3 years of ML service time and is arbitration-eligible next year. Huntington would probably prefer someone with a few more years of club control left.
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THE SERVICE TIME CALCULATION?
This season should be an option, and he’s had one full season and two partial seasons. Is he a super 2?
by nick987nick123 on Jun 27, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
as of right now
milledge’s MLB service time is at 2.004 years.
so yes, if he hadnt sucked last season, i believe he could be a super 2. so no, he’s not arb eligible just yet.
According to Cot's Baseball Contracts...
Milledge had 2 years and 4 days service going into this season. He was optioned to AAA on April 14th. Even if he gets called up now…it’s very unlikely that he will have enough service days to become a Super 2.
The Mets burned two of his options in 2006 and 2007…and the Nats used the 3rd one (which makes moves this year irrelevant) this season.
So…bottom line…for next season…Milledge won’t have any options remaining…but won’t be arbitration eligible either.
Milledge’s absolute worst-case scenario is ending up similar to Nyjer, from here.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions
Actually, not
Milledge’s worst case scenario is that he plays himself out of Pittsburgh by next July, is traded for beans because he’s out of options, and spends the rest of his career bouncing around, always someone’s project, until he’s 32 and people finally accept that having tools at age 21 doesn’t necessarily translate into jack shit.
That worst case scenario
fits pretty much everyone though.
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Comparison by WAR
Nyjer Morgan has 1.4, 0.8 and 1.7 WAR in his last three years in the majors for a total WAR of 3.9.
In four years in the majors, Lastings Milledge has -0.6 (yes, that’s a negative WAR) 0.4, 0.1, -.0.2 for a total career war of -0.3. According to WAR, he is the very definition of scrub. He’s the most fungible of fungible players. A negative WAR outfielder.
The more I look into it, trading Nyjer for Milledge would be a steal for the Nationals.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions
At least Milledge was in the majors at 24. Nyjer was stinking up Lynchburg at the same age. It’s not a stretch to believe that Milledge will be anywhere from better to a lot better than Morgan in the next 3-5 years when it is important.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I Think It's Iffy
Milledge certainly might be better than Nyger is right now, but a lot of players start out sucking and then just keep sucking..
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh...
if only we coild project a future player’s performance with 100% certainty no one would ever win a trade!
But That Doesn't Mean That You Can Just Throw All Projections Out The Window
The last time Lastings Milledge had an OPS over 900 was in low A ball.
While anyone might get better. I don’t see where Milledge shows any signs of having the potential to improve.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
he doesnt need
to have an OPS over 900 – he posted an .828 OPS in 2006, which is pretty frickin good for a 21 year old at AAA. he essentially did in ‘06 what cutch did this year at the AAA level. since then, it’s been a messy situation, but i think that’s pretty significant.
this is not unlike the conversations we had in the past about luigi. lastings may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he posted a career .303/.857 line in the minors with numbers akin to a 40 2B, 18 HR, 85 RBI season. would you take that in left field? it’s no guarantee, but its highly likely that its about milledge rediscovering what got him to the bigs, rather than learning/discovering some skill he doesn’t already possess.
Yeah
One of the simple indicators of a player’s future value is how old he is when he finally hits the bigs. Milledge is 24 and already arbitration-eligible. I guarantee that we would get more value out of Milledge in the next X years than we would out of Morgan, and that A) it wouldn’t even be close and B) Milledge wouldn’t have to even come close to his ceiling.
I like the deal
With or without Stammen, but having watched more Nationals games than I’m proud to say last year (I have a thing for watching headcases like Dukes and Lastings), I must say that the UZR stats don’t lie about Lastings’ defense. He is really bad out there. I don’t even think it’s so much the routes he takes, he simply cannot read the ball off the bat. He plays really deep and just does not react well to a ball being hit.
That's Probably Not Gonna Get Any Better
That doesn’t seem to be the kind of a skill that he’s likely to learn at this point.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Morgan’s definitely not gonna get any better, and right now we’ve got an almost 30 year old pinch-runner on most teams.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
But but but
He’s a good top of the order guy! Yeah, I wish the prehistoric idea of the ‘lead off hitter’ would just die already. I remember when the Reds would bat Dunn first, and everyone in baseball had a conniption about it.
He's Not, But
I’d rather have a gracefully declining Nyjer Morgan for the next three years than an embarrassingly inept disastrous Lastings Milledge. And honestly, I think that Nyjer Morgan has a much better chance of gracefully declining than Lastings Milledge has of getting any better.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
“Gracefully declining”? Once Morgan isn’t one of the few fastest players in the league, he will fall off a cliff like Tike Redman and everyone else like him. Plus since it took him longer for Morgan to reach his peak than most players, he should also decline much sooner. I wouldn’t bet on him being in the league in 3 years.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I Agree
I think that Nyjer is likely to fall of a cliff soon. I just think it’s even more likely that Lastings Milledge never gets better.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Basically
I want a player with upside. Milledge is young, but that’s not the same thing as upside.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know how you’ve come to the conclusion that someone who got to the majors as the youngest player in the league doesn’t have the same upside as Morgan.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes, Players Get Promoted When They Don't Deserve It, And Then They Flame Out
Nobody ever gave up on Garry Templeton. But they should have.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
From here, Milledge has more upside than anyone acquired in the Bay deal (I’m figuring Morris as more of a mid-rotation piece). I guess we just have to wait to see who is right.
The point about his arbitration eligibility is a good one, and the best point against this.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Templeton was actually really good for a while.
110 OPS+ as a 21-year-old shortstop? Yes, please!
The problem is that after reaching that height, he never developed any further. Claudell Washington was the same way.
It Potentially Paralles Millledge In Some Ways, Perhaps
Milledge clearly doesn’t play a position as hard as shortstop, so there’s no comparison there. But he did have an OPS+ of 105 at age 22. (Albeit in 59 games). My point is that a player can have a year of above average hitting when he’s young, and then never duplicate it again.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, they COULD.
That doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed. They COULD also build on that great season of hitting.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 28, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Exactly Great
For an outfielder, an OPS+ of 105 isn’t exactly great. It’s more like barely passable.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 29, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
And Remember
His OPS+ of 105 wasn’t in a full season. In his follow-up season, which was full season, his OPS+ was 91. That’s not even average. That’s below average. And for an outfielder, being a below average hitter is simply unacceptable, unless somehow you’re the greatest fielder in the major leagues. And Lastings Milledge is one of the worst fielders in the major leagues.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 29, 2009 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pitcher, On The Other Hand...
I’m actually more interested in Craig Stammen than I am in Lastings Milledge. Pitchers can take a long time to develop. Positional players are generally either good or scrubs by the time they’re 25.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Just throwin' this out
because it has relevance to the Luis Ayala (and possibly the Ian Snell) posts earlier this week. Comes from Phil Rogers’ column in the Chicago Tribune:
``He wanted an eighth-inning role,‘’ Gardenhire said. ``His thoughts were if we
gave him the ball in that eighth inning, he’d be able to do the job. My thoughts
are, `If you’re not getting them out, you’re not going to pitch in the eighth
inning.’ We’re trying to win, so there’s your difference.‘’ … ``When you walk into my office and tell me you don’t like your role — and he talked about his contract for next year — you lose me right there,‘’ Gardenhire told the Minneapolis Star Tribune. ``I don’t deal with that. We’re talking about winning now.’’
lol
I think that was reported in other places as well, not just by Phil Rogers (whoever that is)
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Rogers
was quoting the Minneapolis paper. I just posted it as an example of how the Twins deal with a whiny ballplayer. They get rid of him.
That's pretty much what they do.
Works better some times than others, though. Just look at David Ortiz.
Nats Fan
Trust me Milledge is a scub, he doenst play great defense and he is a complete jerk/ bad dude in the clubhouse…while he probably will be a marginal imporvement from Morgan with the Bat…youll loose out on D. So it isnt even worth having him..
…and Craig Stammen, age 25 – which is still young, has actually pitched some pretty good games for us. His best being 6 ip shutout at Yankee Stadium.
I wouldnt want to give him up for Morgan and the Nats are making the Correct move by not trading him. Stammen future is probably in the bullpen for the Nats..but he can be a solid cotributer out of there…and last I check they really need some help in the Bullpen.
GO NATS!
Nats Fan
like and another thing, why didnt your gm just trade morgan and put McCutchen in Right while Keeping McLouth in center? that would have been baller….
I think McCutchen is a beast. on another note..if the stupid baseball Rules allowed for trading draft picks/ recently signed players (WHICH THEY DONT)…. I would Def. trade strasburg for McCutchen.
You guys have a good enough offense.
But you need pitching out the wazoo. No matter how good ’Cutch turns out to be, trading pitching for hitting straight up is always a win for the team getting the pitcher, baring rare occasions.
But I agree with you about Milledge. He’s been terrible so far.
Nats Fan
Ya from time to time we have been getting solid offensive production..but we have slumped badly as of late…had a big 9 run game against the Red Sox though then subsequently lost 11-1 to the Orioles yesterday…also we have the worst damn defense ever…its atrocious. 65 or so errors on the season…eh
but as for McCutchen…offense out of your CF spot is a premium..and I really think he is going to be a SuperStar while no one Knows how Strasburg is going to turn out…
and.actually even with out Strasburg, the best thing we do have going for us is our Starting Rotation..with the guys we have in the Majors and some of the dudes in the Minors..
what the Nats really lack is some position player prosects…..right now there is only on Pos player who I see has our future,,,and he plays 3b (Ryan Zimmerman) the rest need to be DFA’d or Traded.
I also live in the Nats area
and Morgan would be an upgrade to Willie Harris and would look good out in CF but Milledge is one of the few young position players they have that could be worth a damn in a couple years. If I were them though I’d probably make the deal(w/o giving up Stammen), trade Nick Johnson as well and move Dunn to 1b with Dukes and Willingham flanking Nyjer.
See how far we've fallen?
There’s no other team in MLB whose fans would get upset about, or expend more than three posts on, the prospect of trading Nyjer Morgan.
Nyjer Morgan Is Not The Second Coming Of Hank Aaron
But that doesn’t mean that we should trade a good player for a bad player.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s not a good player, unless you wear the Pittsburgh blinders which also show that Nady and McLouth are stars.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He's Not A Star
And anyone saying that he’s a star either has Pittsburgh blinders on, or just doesn’t know anything about baseball. But honestly, I don’t see too many people saying that he’s a star. I do think he’s a decent player though.
Nyjer Morgan’s lifetime high OPS+ is 105 — nothing too impressive. But Lasting Milledge’s lifetime high OPS + is also 105. And Nyjer is a very good fielder. Milledge is a bad fielder, and his fielding is not likely to improve. So that means, for Milledge to become the equal of Nyjer Morgan, he’s going to have to improve as a hitter a lot. I don’t see much evidence that he’s going to improve as a hitter even a little.
When becoming the equal of Nyjer Morgan presents the defining challenge of a player’s career, perhaps that player isn’t very good.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
And you're proposing
That he doesn’t have more of a chance of seeing improvement than Nyjer Morgan?
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 28, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
No
Of course Milledge has a better chance of improving than Nyjer Morgan. But that ain’t sayin’ much.
What I’m saying is, we can do better than Lastings Milledge.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 29, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
But he's not a good player.
He’s a fourth OF. And Milledge isn’t a bad player. He’s a decent player that has a chance at being a very good player.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Morgan for Milledge
Who is Morgan’s best buddy on the Bucs? Isn’t it that new Centerfielder? Even if the headcase has more “upside” wouldn’t we want to take that into account? After all, this is a team sport.
Plus, WTM (above) has a point.
Lino Donoso
Team chemistry is great and all
But talent is more important. Chemistry is important, but talent wins games. Look at the 86 Mets. Hated each other. Won the World Series. Stocked with talent. Now look at the ‘39 Giants. The famous quote about them? Nice guys; finish last. Leo Durocher’s Dodgers finished first. Bunch of egotistical jerks.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
all this blahblah from
nats fans about milledge being a scrub is crap. nobody has seen him play since the first week of the season, and who the heck knows what has or hasn’t changed about his mindset/baseball ability since then.
again, not saying he’s a superphenom like cutch, but lets not dump on the guy when he’s basically spent this season rehabbing.
I Don't Think That Players Typically Improve While Being Out With An Intury
If he hasn’t lost a step from last year, then he’s still a 91 OPS+ bad defensive center-fielder.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I just think it's interesting
That you’d like to have someone who ages “gracefully” — whatever the crap that means, it still means he’s getting worse — rather than get someone who might not turn out to be much, but could actually be something worthwhile.
We’re talking about the same bad Pirates team, right? And if Cutch can’t handle having “his best buddy” traded then he’s going to have a pretty bad career with such a fragile mindset.
Sometimes, Young Players Who Suck Turn Into Old Players Who Suck
Where’s the evidence of Lasting Milledge’s upside? Baseball Reference has his closest comparison as Gary Geiger. Are you excited about the potential of a guy who might have Gary Geiger’s career?
Not that those comparisons are deeply meaningful. But I see a lot of evidence that Milledge sucks, and none whatsoever that he’ll be good one day.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 27, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Most of his problems are mental
So being out with an injury and stepping away from the game COULD bring improvement and the evidence is that he has the TALENT, whether or not it ever comes out. If Milledge is healthy, put him in LF and let him try out the rest of the year, rotating with Pearce and Moss. If he sucks, Gorkys or Tabata could be up my mid season next year and they weren’t going to be held back by Nyjer anyways.
I’d be more excited about Gary Geiger than an old age Juan Pierre. Geiger spent most of his career as an above-average offensive player.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You're confusing
Sometimes you use pretty good statistical analysis, and then sometimes you pull out garbage stats like Bill James’ similarity scores (which are what B-R uses).
Sim Scores aren't exactly garbage.
But they’re meant for comparing players at the end of their careers, and they’re geared as much toward finding players of comparable style as players of comparable value, if not more so (in that the numbers being compared aren’t adjusted for park or era).
Stats
I don’t think any one stat is gonna be the philosopher’s stone of baseball. It’s best to look at a wide range of stats and see what conclusions you can draw from them.
In this case, the similarity score was an easy way to find a player that was similar to Lastings Milledge. That’s all. And that’s all it was ever supposed to be. Trying to read much more into it is a mistake. But pretending like it’s totally meaningless is also a mistake.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Now That's Just Goofy
Their OPS+ is almost exactly the same, and Nyjer is a great fielder, whereas Milledge is a klutz who has trouble seeing batted balls.
Milledge is clearly worse than Nyjer is right now.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
And Milledge has had injury issues recently
and Nyjer has been caught stealing more than anyone else in the league
There are a lot of different factors you can drag in beyond OPS+ and defense, but I’d swap the two of them and let Milledge prove he isn’t better than Nyjer (given he’s heathly)
Those scores aren’t very helpful for a young player who’s spent most of his pro career in the minors. For what it’s worth, Baseball Prospectus’ PECOTA, which is a lot better for dealing with the totality of a young player’s career, compares Milledge to Andre Dawson, Ellis Burks, Grady Sizemore, Nick Markakis, Dwight Evans, and other good players.
Of course it did that before whatever’s happened to Milledge this year. But then I’m not saying he’s as good a player as Nyjer now. I’m saying that if the Pirates get a chance to trade a player like Morgan for a guy who has even a 10% chance of becoming Ellis Burks, they should take it.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 28, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
NH is shopping Morgan for two players he doesn't really want.
One of them is a notorius ‘toolsy’ prospect that the baseball world is well aware of. Could he be setting an artificially high benchmark for more realistic suitors nearer the deadline?
I know Morgan will never be a superstar, but I have a problem with the idea mentioned earlier in this thread that his speed and defensive skills are about to decline due to his age. The guy is a natural athlete with apparently good work habits and a massive determination to succeed. Maybe he’ll slow down in his mid-thirties but that’s five years away. And, as mentioned above by Lino, he’s befriended the Bucs top prospect and comes accross as a damn good egg.
I’ve noticed Charlie (to his credit IMO) has become very guarded about criticising Morgan these days. Throw the ceilings out the window, forget about the floors/flaws and don’t under value an old fashioned type commodity that the rest of baseball should be very interested in.
by RDV across the sea on Jun 27, 2009 5:23 PM EDT reply actions
The rest of baseball should be interested? What other teams besides the Nats and Pirates would he start for, and especially from potential contenders who are most likely to be buying at the deadline?
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
"What other teams besides the Nats and Pirates would he start for"
Maybe the A’s if they trade Holliday?
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
I doubt Billy Beane would be in the market for Nyjer, and wouldn’t give anything of value even if he was.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, agreed
was just naming a team.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Nah
isn’t he in SF?
Or did they move him?
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
He was in SF at the start of last year...
…but Oakland grabbed him on waivers, and he’s been there since.
That’s the trouble with speedy guys – you blink, and they’re somewhere else.
Ah
missed that. Yeah, he doesn’t need NyjMo then.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Yeah
But getting someone on waivers is a lot different than just trading for them.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Precisely
Garbage players like Nyjer Morgan are available freely on waiver wires and AAA clubs everywhere. The fact that the Nationals are willing to surrender a bona fide prospect for one is mind-boggling.
Milledge Is Not A Bona Fide Prospect
One team has already given up on him, and the Nationals are about to become the second.
If Lastings Milledge is such a great prospect, then why is his team so excited to trade him for Nyjer Morgan?
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
And when it comes to developing prospects...
neither are the Mets. If a guy hits a bump in the road they can afford to toss him aside and look elsewhere.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 28, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Morgan's .695 OPS, 18/26 steals and above average fielding would be no worse than:
C Young (Ari) .649 , 11/13
G Parra (Ari) .723 0/2
G Anderson (Atl) .687 1/0
M Bradley (ChC) .730 0/0
B Anderson (CWS) .638 2/6
W Tavares (Cin) .564 18/3
B Francisco (Cle) .670 11/1
Need I go any further?
by RDV across the sea on Jun 27, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
How many of those teams would
trade for NyjMo & start him?
I’m pretty sure Cleveland & ‘Zona wouldn’t, the White Sox might not either.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
The only team not in contention on this list is Cleveland.
The point is that almost every team in MLB could use Morgan.
I think a lot of very intelligent baseball fans haven’t yet come to terms with the end of the ‘steroids era’. Combine that with Morgan’s late start into professional baseball and we have a very underrated player who continues to prove people wrong.
by RDV across the sea on Jun 27, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Arizona
18 games out in the division, 10 games back in the WC. We’re ahead of them in the WC standings. And they’ve lost Webb for the season (I think).
Atlanta needs an upgrade, yes… I don’t think they’ll go for NyjMo though.
Cubs/ChiSox… not sure. The ChiSox are falling behind as the Tigers catch fire though, and the Reds are struggling.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
My bad with the D-Backs.
I didn’t check the standings to be honest.
But really, you’re splitting hairs here. All the players are staring outfielders and I only got as far as ‘C’!
by RDV across the sea on Jun 27, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The end of the "steroids era"
Does not mean that a player that has 3 career ML home runs is valuable with the bat.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 27, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Notorious.
Where is the ‘edit’ button?
There isn’t one…bugger!
by RDV across the sea on Jun 27, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions
Add another potential impact player and only lose Nyjer?
If this trade is actually on the table, it should go through. Since a lot of people are down on Milledge and high on Morgan, I don’t blame NH for trying to score a pitcher he likes as well, either.
Published reports indicated that Washington is willing to part with outfielder Lastings Milledge, who is currently playing in the Gulf Coast League. But the Pirates don’t need another outfielder. They are looking for a starting pitcher or a middle infielder in return.
…
Don’t look for middle infielders such Alberto Gonzalez or Danny Espinosa to be dealt, but second baseman Anderson Hernandez could be part of the deal.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Guh
“But the Pirates don’t need another outfielder.”
The Pirates don’t have the luxury of turning down talent because they have “too much” at a particular position. This organization still needs to get as much as they can wherever they can.
Looking for other positions is a legitimate reason for the deal to stall,
but only if he can get a player better than Milledge.
Disagreed.
Milledge is the third best young player in their organization (not including Strasburg) behind the two Zimmermans, and neither of them are going anywhere. Anderson Hernandez is a huge step down in every respect, IMO, if Milledge is actually available.
by Gorkys n' Beans on Jun 27, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If we can get a SP or MI with Milledge, sure.
But to turn down Milledge to find a MI (especially someone like Hernandez) is just stupid.
True Blue Jazz
Bucco Ball
I'm on Twitter
RIP Nick Adenhart. 4/9/09
Milledge
I would not want him anywhere near McCutchen. His attitude was part of the reason the Mets got rid of him and now the Nationals. He and Burnett could do a hip-hop recording together though.
Pal..........I'm not your pal.
Or maybe they have found a playmate for Ian Snell.
"So you think 25 percent of the country is retarded?! Yea. Atleast 25 percent. Well lets so a sample. There are 4 of us an you're retarded. Thats 25 percent." Southpark; Mystery of the Urinal Deuce
by gorillakilla34 on Jun 27, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
On the whole, I think Milledge has some upside.
He was pretty solid in 2006, and though he took a step back in 2007, it’s hard for me to hold that against someone affiliated with a train wreck like the ’07 Nats. And he was playing well at AAA this year before getting hurt.
I believe in the skills, but getting an extra arm as a hedge isn’t a bad idea. That said, going to the Nats for pitching is like hitting up a blind guy for fashion tips.
NH is pushing the envelope
If he only traded morgan for milledge, I think fans would be thinking how come he didn’t ask for more?
In this case he did and got turned down, if not for trying.
It doesn’t mean the deal is dead. He just may ask for someone else possibly.
This is a case of wanting to get as much as you can for the money (player).
“Why the fuck has this thread gone over 130 posts?”
— Person who watched Nyjer get picked off twice tonight
who cares...
people are thinking about the pirates again… finally! i’d rather have a million people complaining about this supposive deal, then the slumber of the “fans” that we’ve had. please can we just have fans again, please.
Bahahaha!
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 28, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
question...
can the rest of this team handle the amount of runs that would score from milledge’s defensive problems? honestly this team needs more then a potentially good batter right? honestly i would assume the best bet for the pirates would be to hold nyjer for the season, and trade him in the offseason in a package deal to either free up money or bring us 2 hitters
THIS
Exactly. There’s no reason to take on dead weight. Nyjer Morgan may not be the new Reggie Jackson. But that doesn’t mean that we need to trade him for a bad player, when we could actually trade him for a good player.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 28, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Lastings Milledge is a bad player RIGHT NOW. Nyjer Morgan is also a bad player RIGHT NOW. Nyjer Morgan follows Juan Pierre’s career arc. Lastings Milledge might follow Grady Sizemore’s. We’re never going to trade Nyjer Morgan for a player that’s already good. It won’t happen. Nobody is that stupid.
www.sixtyftsixin.com
by Sixty Feet, Six Inches on Jun 28, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Nyjer's not bad...
he’s just not good. but he’s not going to decline this season (most likely). so doesn’t it make more sense, and raise his trade value, to have him play a complete season as an average-above average (at best). then package him with a group of players and get either some one good now, or will be good very soon. i just don’t like the pirates looking for a project in the outfeild. if there was a player with the same potential as a mid-infielder i’m be much more supportive.
There's No Comparision Between Milledge And Sizemore
At age 23, Lastings MIlledge had an OPS+ of 94. Sizemore, at the same age, was 132.
There’s no comparison.
by Androgen Jar Jimmy on Jun 29, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitching
The Pirates need pitching more than anything else. If they’re going to trade for anything, they should get a good starter. I think calling up Garrett Jones at this point would profit the franchise more than staying with Morgan.
Trading Nyjer Morgan
Mark me down as opposed. This team has come very close, a couple of times actually, to becoming, if not a winner,.at least a genuinely competitive club that no one can take lightly. Perhaps more accurately, they are showing signs of believing that they can be a winner. Let’s hold off on doing anything more to disturb the fragile chemistry of this team for at least the rest of this year and just enjoy watching some pretty decent baseball, which is what we’re seeing right now.
Fragile Chemistry?
Puh-leeeeeeze.
This is a sub-.500 club. Period.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 28, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Nats perspective
Just a point from the other side of fence.
Stammen is actually a good young pitcher (who contary to belief, pitched well in AAA):
http://indianapolis.indians.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=552&stn=true&sid=t552
Despite a few of the bumps he’s had in the majors, he’s considered part of the rotation and now looks like he’ll hold his place.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend; few understand."
14 strikeouts in 40 innings at AAA just is not good. I don’t care what the ERA is.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Jun 30, 2009 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
40 IPs is a pretty small sample size
He had 35 Ks in 43 AAA IPs last year. 7 K per 9 IP and 2.8 BB per 9 IP in his minor league career. Nothing spectacular, but workable……
The scary thing about clicking on the Syracuse Chiefs stats was the numbers Milledge has put up this season. Sending him down sure didn’t send him a message…….
Period?
A team that has scored more runs than it’s allowed, even while missing its best offensive player for 6 weeks? What an interesting assessment.
If you have any respect for statistics and probability, you’d acknowledge that this team should be right at .500. But no, the “smart,” sophisticated thing to say is that the Pirates suck. Bravo.
Are you addressing ME, sir?
If so, please note the complete lack of the word “suck” in my entry.
And, if you are addressing me, please take this opportunity to point out where I did or did not “respect” or “disrespect” “statistics or probability.”
The fact remains, sir, that the Pirates are under .500 for the season (6 games under, with tonight’s loss), despite any “projections” or “statistics” whether they “should be” or not.
If you are not addressing me, please accept my apology.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 29, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
We shall defend Nyjer, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the bases, we shall fight in the on deck circle, we shall fight in the outfield and in the infield, we shall fight on the mound; we shall never surrender and we shall never let this thread die.
Free your ass and your mind will follow.
by cocktailsfor2 on Jun 29, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
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